We gettin' rifles...

Buddiiee said:
I think its good, that our le officials are getting more tools. for sure. if it were up to me (if we had the funding that is) cops would have all sorts of stuff in their trunks to go to, in case they needed it. but within reason. are freakin M4's needed for colleges? i dont know. i dont pretend to know either. but what kind of college do you work on man??? 'these guns are for long distance'... really? do much long distance shooting on campus? assault rifles arent distance guns. scoped bolt guns are distance weapons. assault rifles are for hard targets. ie shooting it out in urban scenarios, where cars and thin skinned buildings are used for cover and concealment. and for defeating some body armor. im not sure theres too many body armour wearing terrorists invading colleges these days. dont get me wrong, im not trying to but heads with anyone but, i just never seen the need for cops with assault rifles for schools. if you cant get it done with your fire and maneuver training (shoot move and communicate) and your pistols, what in the heck are you up against? another '44 minutes'? this isnt iraq, this is college.

"Now the governor may send in the National Guard, all respect to the NG, great guys with lots of heart and not lacking in courage, but how many of you believe they are trained to do a hostage rescue of this type?"

Depends on what national guard unit you call in...
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Man, you live in Detroit and you ask these questions? I live in Memphis. Ask me if war zone C is right next door to some folks' back door.
 
The reasons for issuing such weapons are legitimate and well considered, so I'm not even going there again, but there's another point to be made that may be far more important to some of you. If civilians (especially gun owners) say that M4/AR15s are too dangerous for police officers who will be trained to use them, what are you communicating to people who want to restrict civilian ownership of such weapons? I can just hear the cries from HCI (or whatever their name is now), these guns are so dangerous that not even cops should have them...
 
and what is this lone actor made from, titanium? .40 hollowpoints wont take care of him? how do the cops in major urban cities make it everyday without m4's then?
 
Buddiiee said:
and what is this lone actor made from, titanium? .40 hollowpoints wont take care of him? how do the cops in major urban cities make it everyday without m4's then?
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police shootings are actually fairly uncommon, although they seen to happen often. they are broadcast through media whenever there is one, so it seems they happen all the time. but consider how many police officers there are in the U.S., and most will never fire their weapons.

pistols are carried for their practical size and are a weapon of necessity. a rifle would be a weapon of choice. but it would be tough to do the job every day with a rifle slung around my shoulder.

i can think of several police shootings where a rifle readily available would have given officers a much better fighting chance, n.hollwood being the most notable.

the industry is becooming more accepting of the application of rifles and carbines, and thus more departments and officers have them available.

a college/school campus is a large area, and it may be necessary to engage from a distance. the spacing between buildings and open areas are often difficult to move across and provide little concealment and often no cover.
 
When i was doing my work, precisely these reasons are why i carried an underfold AK, it was not in the way after the second or third day and most of the time it was slung in such a way sorta over the back, that it carried along side the pack i carried. An MP5 would do the same, but be a whole heck of a lot lighter than a AK and not as sharp on the sleeves either.

I am NOT recommending a MP for daily cop wear, just one reason I picked what I liked...
 
morimotom. i absolutely agree. to have a nice carbine in the cruiser is VERY smart. I wish EVERY cop had one. i know id feel a tad bit safer. but within reason. theres a local department around here, that still uses m1 carbines. those are cool. nice medum caliber, that you can shoulder and extend out past 20 meters with accuracy. decent, handy, rarely jams, and if it does, its malfunction drills are easy cuz their receivers are open, easy to buttstroke with, and you can run with it. good weapon.
or some other mini type gun, thats handy, and doesnt overpenetrate, or look like a special operations carbine with all sorts of high speed 'tac' lights, forearms with surefires stuck in em for 6000 dollars, holographic sights, and back up irons mounted on the side rails, drop in mccormick triggers, laser aimers, peq2's, pac 4's etc etc... thats just too 'tackelberry' for me. wrong gun for the situation. the city streets arent 3 gun competition yards, or haifa street in baghdad. a nice mp5 or ump in 10mm would be very good too. I do realized a lot of crap breaks out on the streets... but i dont see it on campus....sorry.
 
Buddiiee said:
morimotom. i absolutely agree. to have a nice carbine in the cruiser is VERY smart. I wish EVERY cop had one. i know id feel a tad bit safer. but within reason. theres a local department around here, that still uses m1 carbines. those are cool. nice medum caliber, that you can shoulder, and extended out past 20 meters with accuracy. decent, handy, rarely jams, and if it does, its malfunction drills are easy cuz their receivers are open, easy to buttstroke with, and you can run with it. good weapon.
or some other mini type gun, thats handy, and doesnt overpenetrate, or look like a special operations carbine with all sorts of high speed 'tac' lights, forearms with surefires stuck in em for 6000 dollars, holographic sights, and back up irons mounted on the side rails, drop in mccormick triggers, laser aimers, peq2's, pac 4's etc etc... thats just too 'tackelberry' for me. wrong gun for the situation. the city streets arent 3 gun competition yards, or haifa street in baghdad. a nice mp5 or ump in 10mm would be very good too. I do realized a lot of crap breaks out on the streets... but i dont see it on campus....sorry.
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last year i responded to a local high school re: a man w/gun barracaded in the football locker room. true, no extended range shots by the time i got there. i was on the entry team, and the commando in tight quarters was great for mobility.

we only have a few weapon platforms available. m-16 type, rem 870, and glock are issued. we are going to sell our mp5's and buy m4's. with the .223 ammo we use, the 9mm has a much higher probablility of overpenetration.

im in the los angeles area, so i guess our school are worse. but columbine is in a pretty nice area, isnt it?
 
with the .223 you use, your 9mm's have a higher probability of overpenetration??? ya lost me there. even if you were using all lead wadcutters on the M4's, and steel solids on the 9, the M4 would still penetrate more. ones a rifle calibre, and the other is a pistol caliber. way different. Im lost.
The only round I can think of, that has overpenetration in mind, is the nytryllium rounds which are supposed to just break into dust or some shit like this. i dont know, i never tried them.
an MP5 in .45 with glasers or good hollowpoints wont overpenetrate, and still be good for centre mass shots out to 60 or so meters with a comp M2 or eotech. Id keep the MP5's. but if you could get a round, that doesnt overpenetrate at all, and throw a 10.5" heavy barrel on an M4A1, with vector muzzle break, a good holographic sight, ambi mag release, and nice trigger, Id take that over any other platform to be honest.
 
I try not to get involved in these discussions, but I thought I would toss this in. Tests of wall pnetration were done at Gunsite. It seems that the bullet with the least penetration was from a .223 fired from an AR. Of course, these were not FMJ rounds. They were 55 gr. hollow or soft points.

Here's the link. Scroll down to the bottom.

http://www.olyarms.com/?rootView=page&page=223articles

There are folks on the gun forums who will dispute the results, but there always are. (Folks who will dispute anything, that is. ;) )
 
Buddiiee said:
and what is this lone actor made from, titanium? .40 hollowpoints wont take care of him? how do the cops in major urban cities make it everyday without m4's then?
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Sometimes just luck. Sound like a good plan considering the way things are going out there right now?
 
Whats well trained? A month of BRM and ARM maybe some reflexive firing drills? It takes a lot of consistent training afterward to keep sharp, otherwise it be fruitless IMO.
 
Penetration is still limited with .223 ball. Light bullet and high velocity equals a tumbling and often fragmenting round. That being said, if anyone is interested in getting the real scoop on the effects of projectiles check out www.stoppingpower.net. As for rifles and police officers, I have no problem with the combination as long as they get proper training. Law enforcement officers have a different mandate than do military personnel. When people talk about the "militarization" of a law enforcement agency, they often focus on the tools. The idea is that simply by providing military type equipment to civilian agencies you will essentially be creating para-military organizations. This only tends to occur when you're already dealing with organizations that have already adopted a quasi-militaristic posture. And this is a very real problem on both the state and federal level, one that often goes unheralded. Note that I am in no way impugning any particular organization, simply pointing out that training and institutional mindset are a heck of a lot more important than ordnance.
 
Buddiiee said:
with the .223 you use, your 9mm's have a higher probability of overpenetration??? ya lost me there. even if you were using all lead wadcutters on the M4's, and steel solids on the 9, the M4 would still penetrate more. ones a rifle calibre, and the other is a pistol caliber. way different. Im lost.
The only round I can think of, that has overpenetration in mind, is the nytryllium rounds which are supposed to just break into dust or some shit like this. i dont know, i never tried them.
an MP5 in .45 with glasers or good hollowpoints wont overpenetrate, and still be good for centre mass shots out to 60 or so meters with a comp M2 or eotech. Id keep the MP5's. but if you could get a round, that doesnt overpenetrate at all, and throw a 10.5" heavy barrel on an M4A1, with vector muzzle break, a good holographic sight, ambi mag release, and nice trigger, Id take that over any other platform to be honest.
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talking drywall and such. not necessarily bodies. but with the hornady tap round, we have found the .223 penetrates through body armor, then opens up and creates a massive wound channel without exiting (on clay).

the 9mm doesnt penetrate the kevlar, and tends to zip through walls and more solid media, and the wound channel is smaller and not as traumatic.

this might be limited to the ammo we have tested, winchester stx, and hornady, but we are limited in what is available and acceptable to the brass for field use.

glazers, no go. 10mm, no go. and i didnt think the mp5 came in .45. unfortunately politics can indeed have a role in weapon platforms.
 
carlojohn93 said:
Penetration is still limited with .223 ball. Light bullet and high velocity equals a tumbling and often fragmenting round.
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i have only seen the .223 tumble in the older a1 models with the 1/9 twist.

our m4's have 1/7 twist and have yet to see any ammo tumble.
 
yea, politics sure do govern alot of crap. i think thats bull too. how would a person, sitting behind a desk, be able to tell YOU what HE thinks YOU need lol. that has always killed me. but anyhow, most of my experience, has been with the 62 gr. ss109 (the original name for our current issue green tips) though, i do have a lot of time with the older 55 grain stuff too. never EVER seen a 556 tumble in my life.
the only time, i seen keyholes, are at the competitions, where it was my turn in the pits pullin targets, and the guys on the line were hitting the berm right before the target, and bouncin em thru. NASTY holes in the 2x4's though ill tell ya that. those little 556's would just annihlate the support frame when they were keyholing them in. but, as far as the green tips, they can REALLY penetrate a decent amount of crap. they have those little steel cores in em, and they work dam good i might add. there isnt much competition between one of those, and a 9mm. though, in your bullets, there may be though, so i dont know. i just try to tell people, that the little .223 is a bit more powerful than they give credit for. but im still a little weary, of cops shootin people with 556. one day, its going to go all the way thru, and whack someone else behind them. I dont see whats wrong with a .45 MP5 carbine. decent range and stopping power when some +p fodder is run thru a carbine length barrel. I think your command, needs to get out from behind the desk, and start paying attention to whats goin on. I do NOT want to turn our police into a para military organization. one bit. but they do need a little more leeway to do what they gotta do. There should be more K9's embedded with the street patrol guys, there should never ever ever be less than 2 cops in any one cruiser (NEVER do anything dangerous without a ranger buddy.) and you guys should have either a decent 12 gauge autoloader with some good sights, or a nice handy carbine, in medium calibre with you. I also agree with chris rocks' "how not to get your a** kicked" on youtube. "If you make the cops have to come and chase after you, theyre bringing an a** kickin with em...." I agree. I think cops should get a touch more elbow room with the stupid ones. if a cop feels fit to smack the shi# out of you, he should be able to, without getting sued. oh well..thats just me ramblin again..sorry.
 
Buddiiee said:
yea, politics sure do govern alot of crap. i think thats bull too. how would a person, sitting behind a desk, be able to tell YOU what HE thinks YOU need lol. that has always killed me. but anyhow, most of my experience, has been with the 62 gr. ss109 (the original name for our current issue green tips) though, i do have a lot of time with the older 55 grain stuff too. never EVER seen a 556 tumble in my life.
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all great points. (i only quoted a portion)

agreed on the managers dictating what happens in the field, or trying to. i have seen the .223 tumble in the a1's. we have a bunch of drmo rifles, and they are all falling apart. they had some trouble shooting the winchester sxt, and i was told it was because of the barrel twist.

we also have the steel core available for 'extra' penetration. and i agree the .223 is a much better round than most give it credit for. our hornady tap has performed extremely well, though only on the range.

ive never seen or heard of an mp5 in .45, only 9mm, 10mm, and .40. :confused:
 
Buddiiee said:
i cant remember where i read it, but i sware the mp5 came in 45. but the ump does though.
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ive handled the ump, but never shot one. i hear they are nice. do they have the dr.lbs bolt system?

we are likely moving away from the subguns and going to an all rifle/carbine platform with a few benellis mixed in.
 
kr1 said:
I tend to believe what Guntotinfool says. As an army sargent in a scout platoon I taught how to clear towns and buildings. I also worked in a gun store for over 10 years so I have some experience with all kinds of firearms.

When I taught how to clear a building one of the things I would teach would be that if you thought there was a bad guy in the other room, how big of an idiot would you have to be to go charging through a choke point like a doorway. I taught (as army doctrine) that you should either throw in a grenade or two hard enough to make them bounce against the walls so they cannot be gotten hold of and thrown back. Second and the more preferred method was to shoot through the walls and rake the interior of the room to clear it in conjunction with throwing a grenade. The .223 was not recommended for this purpose at all. Only the M-60 (.308) was recommended for this purpose because of the tendancy of the .223 to easily be deflected by the wood or nails or other pieces of the wall construction. This was army doctrine.
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The "only the M-60......." bit kinda dates yourself. Yes, we still breach behind a frag/bang on occasion, but the shooting up a room/house part..........not so sure about that. If on an active assault of a position, with known enemy inside, that is shooting at you then yes, shoot it. Conducting a raid and shooting the house before hand? Not how we do it. Alot of the houses in Iraq/Afghanistan do not have paper thin sheetrock or wooden walls. Even the 240 (what we use now) does not reliably punch without a bad ricochet hazard. Every situation is different, what I've typed here is not set in stone.....this is all "In my experience" as a MOUT instructor for my unit and more than a few days in the Army.;)

GTF- So long as were clear on talking about a POLICE force using an M4 rather than a Mil unit.......there are quite a few rounds that will do the job better (IMHO) than an MP5 in either 9 or 40. Take a look at Hornady TAP, Corbon and a few others. Not sure where yo got the data on a .223/5.56 not putting a BG down with a shot to the head, but I assure you....even a 55gr FMJ to the bucket shuts the lights off.
 
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