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we use the tap, excellent round.
-
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- Thread starter mwerner
- Start date
we use the tap, excellent round.
Um, as someone who ATTENDS Kent State University, I would appreciate it if you kindly thought about what you just said. May 4th was caused by the governor deploying the national guard instead of riot-trained police to the scene of Kent State, 3 of the 4 killed were just on their way to class. They died in a parking lot and we have memorials where each student fell. You can come visit anytime and I will point it out to you.
The "only the M-60......." bit kinda dates yourself. Yes, we still breach behind a frag/bang on occasion, but the shooting up a room/house part..........not so sure about that. If on an active assault of a position, with known enemy inside, that is shooting at you then yes, shoot it. Conducting a raid and shooting the house before hand? Not how we do it. Alot of the houses in Iraq/Afghanistan do not have paper thin sheetrock or wooden walls. Even the 240 (what we use now) does not reliably punch without a bad ricochet hazard. Every situation is different, what I've typed here is not set in stone.....this is all "In my experience" as a MOUT instructor for my unit and more than a few days in the Army.
You Bastid
I know I'm old. I am aware of the new inventory. It was coming in as I was getting out. It wasn't shooting the house apart, it was more of keeping them busy dancing around in the room either to allow you time to position or to get ready to toss grenades. This was more clearing a building that you were already in with known enemy inside, not an assault. I understand that Afgan and Iraq construction is different then Western Europe. I wasn't certain how difficult it would be to penetrate with .308. I was teaching tactics that would have been used during the Soviet invasion of Germany. Back when we didn't like each other so much. Again, I'm dating myself. KR
- Joined
- Mar 14, 2006
- Messages
- 509
M1Marty, I was talking about including a hostage style standoff, where shots thru glass, window treatments, maybe some other household items might be in the way. The .308 has been proven by SWAT and HRT teams as the round they prefer to end hostage/barricaded man etc situations. I was trying to find my old manual that listed several failures of .223/5.56 rounds to end a fight IMMEDIATELY in such a situation. The need to sever the CNS with no ability of the hostile to detonate, pull the trigger, whatever, after the shot, has pretty much mandated the use of the .308 (or larger) round for that use. The .223/5.56 will kill with a head shot, most of the time, but it has not always been able to cut the power instantly like the .308 does, especially when confronted with stuff in the way.
My statement was based on watching people get hit from short barreled 5.56, hearing first person accounts from those who have had the option, and dealing with 30 years of reloading and ammunition experience. When hamstrung by a very short barrel, most loads for the M4 platform lose out to a MP5/10. A couple of the TAP rounds struggle to break 2500 FPS and one does not break 2400 when fired from an 11.5 barrel. A 75 grain bullet at 2400 Fps has less than a thousand Ft/Pd's of energy at the barrel, a 180 grainer at 2000 has double the energy, and keeps more energy better than the 75 grainer out too 150 yards.
Ballistics is a very complex issue. A .223 bullet designed to hold together at 2800 to 3000 FPS and yet give satisfactory expansion, simply acts like a FMJ at 2200 fps. It drills a small hole. No massive wound channel, No spectacular exit wound, often they can be deflected by bone in the body. Likewise, any bullet designed for rapid expansion at 2400 fps, is going to self-destruct when hitting something with heavy resistance.
THis has been the bailiwick for years of the best engineers in the realm of bullet design. This gives us the Nosler partition, the Barnes X bullet, the Safari A-frame, and many many others, How to design a single bullet that will perform from Muzzle to 500 yards, at speeds from 3600 to 500 fps.
Other points to ponder are using rifle cartridges in supershort barrels does not somehow invoke mystical powers on the projectile, It knows not where it came from, only that is X caliber, traveling at Y speeds, and with a BC of .ZZZ. When you lengthen pistol barrels, and fire them at velocities far above the expect for the caliber, likewise those bullets often perform very poorly. For several years, Remington offered a full house JHP 240 grainer that worked wonders when fired from 6 to 8 inch barrels of model 29's and SBH's. However reports were heard where a perfect shot on a deer left that deer up and walking around, but with HUGE gaping surface wounds, What the common denominator was, was people shooting those handgun rounds out of Ruger .44 carbines and the new Marlin 1894's chambered the same. Why? it was simple, from a handgun, the muzzle velocity was 1450 or so, but from a carbine, the MV was up near 1900 FPS and the bullets were acting like varmint bullets, when they hit a hard bone like the blade or shoulder of a deer, they were acting like a prairie dog bullet and just coming apart.
If I was confined to a .223 type weapon for police work, I would really want to make sure that the ammunition I was supplied was going to work at the velocity I was able to make out of my weapon. Just shooting it at the range does not count. I keep hearing talks of ballistic gelatin, but that is a homogenous medium. People are not homogenous. I would only trust my life to rounds that I can see what they have done to living things. I load my home self defense gun with nosler partitions, as they have never failed me, every one i have recovered looks like an advertising picture, nice perfect mushroom with most of the weight retained. This is on animals shot at near spitting distance to close to 275 yards, about the range I call it quits on when shooting game. Hunting prairie dogs I can and have shot much farther, for many reasons. A wounded prairie dog does not cause me to stay awake at night wondering what I did wrong. A lost prairie dog does not cost me a tag. And most often, you get second or third chances at a prairie dog, miss the first time and you can try again.
My opinions are based on having experienced a lot, listened to people who are there or just got back and lots of experience. They are just my opinions, but i feel pretty confident in them...
I am not saying that Campus Cops should go unarmed, The Original post was leading me to believe that the officers agency was handing out M4's or similar to its officers. I stated that in my mind, they were not needed in my experience and that there were better platforms available. To me there are three niches for long guns for police, the drawn out hostage event, the invading shooter(s) or the home invasion warrant search. In a drawn out hostage event, my choice still stands, an accurate .308 in a trained team's hands. In a warrant search or invading shooter scenario, I think history will show a 12 ga shottie or a short hard hitting subgun will work better.
My statement was based on watching people get hit from short barreled 5.56, hearing first person accounts from those who have had the option, and dealing with 30 years of reloading and ammunition experience. When hamstrung by a very short barrel, most loads for the M4 platform lose out to a MP5/10. A couple of the TAP rounds struggle to break 2500 FPS and one does not break 2400 when fired from an 11.5 barrel. A 75 grain bullet at 2400 Fps has less than a thousand Ft/Pd's of energy at the barrel, a 180 grainer at 2000 has double the energy, and keeps more energy better than the 75 grainer out too 150 yards.
Ballistics is a very complex issue. A .223 bullet designed to hold together at 2800 to 3000 FPS and yet give satisfactory expansion, simply acts like a FMJ at 2200 fps. It drills a small hole. No massive wound channel, No spectacular exit wound, often they can be deflected by bone in the body. Likewise, any bullet designed for rapid expansion at 2400 fps, is going to self-destruct when hitting something with heavy resistance.
THis has been the bailiwick for years of the best engineers in the realm of bullet design. This gives us the Nosler partition, the Barnes X bullet, the Safari A-frame, and many many others, How to design a single bullet that will perform from Muzzle to 500 yards, at speeds from 3600 to 500 fps.
Other points to ponder are using rifle cartridges in supershort barrels does not somehow invoke mystical powers on the projectile, It knows not where it came from, only that is X caliber, traveling at Y speeds, and with a BC of .ZZZ. When you lengthen pistol barrels, and fire them at velocities far above the expect for the caliber, likewise those bullets often perform very poorly. For several years, Remington offered a full house JHP 240 grainer that worked wonders when fired from 6 to 8 inch barrels of model 29's and SBH's. However reports were heard where a perfect shot on a deer left that deer up and walking around, but with HUGE gaping surface wounds, What the common denominator was, was people shooting those handgun rounds out of Ruger .44 carbines and the new Marlin 1894's chambered the same. Why? it was simple, from a handgun, the muzzle velocity was 1450 or so, but from a carbine, the MV was up near 1900 FPS and the bullets were acting like varmint bullets, when they hit a hard bone like the blade or shoulder of a deer, they were acting like a prairie dog bullet and just coming apart.
If I was confined to a .223 type weapon for police work, I would really want to make sure that the ammunition I was supplied was going to work at the velocity I was able to make out of my weapon. Just shooting it at the range does not count. I keep hearing talks of ballistic gelatin, but that is a homogenous medium. People are not homogenous. I would only trust my life to rounds that I can see what they have done to living things. I load my home self defense gun with nosler partitions, as they have never failed me, every one i have recovered looks like an advertising picture, nice perfect mushroom with most of the weight retained. This is on animals shot at near spitting distance to close to 275 yards, about the range I call it quits on when shooting game. Hunting prairie dogs I can and have shot much farther, for many reasons. A wounded prairie dog does not cause me to stay awake at night wondering what I did wrong. A lost prairie dog does not cost me a tag. And most often, you get second or third chances at a prairie dog, miss the first time and you can try again.
My opinions are based on having experienced a lot, listened to people who are there or just got back and lots of experience. They are just my opinions, but i feel pretty confident in them...
I am not saying that Campus Cops should go unarmed, The Original post was leading me to believe that the officers agency was handing out M4's or similar to its officers. I stated that in my mind, they were not needed in my experience and that there were better platforms available. To me there are three niches for long guns for police, the drawn out hostage event, the invading shooter(s) or the home invasion warrant search. In a drawn out hostage event, my choice still stands, an accurate .308 in a trained team's hands. In a warrant search or invading shooter scenario, I think history will show a 12 ga shottie or a short hard hitting subgun will work better.
just to let ya know.that ya would ge "the real scoop" on stopping power net is laughable, there are better sources for ballistics info on the net, i promise ya.
all even marshall is worried about is selling you something, all his stats on "one shot stops" and such ilk are so flawed he should be ashamed to publish such drivel. but again, as long as evan is making a dollar................
Cutshaw
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A quick post before I go to sleep.....GTF, you keep saying "11.5 inch barrel". Why? My M4 is 14.5 inches. The Commando is 11.5 IIRC. Either way, use what works for you. If someone trains and is comfortable with an AR style platform, then more power to them. Same for the MP5. I have used the AR style rifle so much, I'd be a dummy to go to a different system because it might work better according to some internet data about so called stopping power. There are waaaaaay too many of us that use the M4/16 in MOUT settings (and well at that) to discredit the rifle.
YMMV.
YMMV.
The only people who ever seem worried about the "stopping power" of either
the .223 or the 9mm in military guns are armchair generals. They seem much more concerned with "stopping power" than how much the ammo actually weighs. At the range of most engagments(300 to 400meters) the .223 gives up very little. A soldier can carry more than twice the .223 shells as .308 so it would be criminally irresponsible to leave half the ammo at home for "stopping power" you probably won't need and even if you do thats why there is a designated marksman. It also does not make sense to make everyone use a 308 when smaller or female soldiers can shoot better with the .223 because of the reduced recoil.
If I was arming a small or campus police force I would put something like the Browning BAR shorttrack stalker in the trunk of every third squadcar with my best shots. I would consider 308 but would rather pick a .300WSM.
The BAR looks nonthreatening like a deer gun but is a sub MOA semi auto.
The chances of having to take a shot beyond 600 meters is a billion to one
so a good fixed 4X with a good FOV that could handle being banged around would be best. The cartridge is overkill but would be good for body armour and light cover. The semiauto allows for fast follow up shots and less recoil.
the .223 or the 9mm in military guns are armchair generals. They seem much more concerned with "stopping power" than how much the ammo actually weighs. At the range of most engagments(300 to 400meters) the .223 gives up very little. A soldier can carry more than twice the .223 shells as .308 so it would be criminally irresponsible to leave half the ammo at home for "stopping power" you probably won't need and even if you do thats why there is a designated marksman. It also does not make sense to make everyone use a 308 when smaller or female soldiers can shoot better with the .223 because of the reduced recoil.
If I was arming a small or campus police force I would put something like the Browning BAR shorttrack stalker in the trunk of every third squadcar with my best shots. I would consider 308 but would rather pick a .300WSM.
The BAR looks nonthreatening like a deer gun but is a sub MOA semi auto.
The chances of having to take a shot beyond 600 meters is a billion to one
so a good fixed 4X with a good FOV that could handle being banged around would be best. The cartridge is overkill but would be good for body armour and light cover. The semiauto allows for fast follow up shots and less recoil.
- Joined
- Jul 20, 2002
- Messages
- 4,187
It should.
A wounded prairie dog feels just as much pain as a wounded deer.
(I'm pro-gun and pro-game shooting, by the way).
maximus otter
Guntotin_fool,
After laboring through six pages, almost experiencing a stroke and two aneurysms......Unless I missed it, I'm just wondering what exactly is your experience?? How much practical weapons and tactics training do you have?
From what I can understand it seems that all of your "opinions and experiences" are derived from hunting, reading, and the internet.
Where I live, the state university police officers are sworn State Police Troopers, and at other larger colleges, they are sworn, P.O.S.T. certified police officers. Definitely not "metermaids". Considering that most colleges here are in high population density urban areas, these officers face exactly the same hazards as municipal police officers.
In case you're wondering....I'm a private secuity contractor for a nuclear facility. I have to qualify with my Colt M4 and Beretta 92D twice yearly, and I receive 100+ hours of weapons and tactics training annually, on top of the training I do on my own. I have a pretty good understanding of different weapon platforms, their capabilites and drawbacks. The AR-15 is definitely one of the best choices for a LEO patrol rifle.
Possibly of interest: We've been pushing for some sort of patrol rifle capability for a long time; long before Columbine and 9/11. As I said previously, the potential for some sort of mischief at a college campus with a daytime population of perhaps 10,000 is always there.
Of course, you have to deal with the administration. When I took this job, 26 years ago, we were doing well to have our .38 special revolvers (in flap holsters, no less). Some of the "board" were openly against having armed police on campus, but apparently the riot of 1969 gave them something to think about.
Since then, it's been a gradual struggle. The only good thing our last chief did was get the weapons upgraded; we've had our Glock M23s for about 11 years now.
A shotgun would be a hard sell on the crowded campus. It's been brought up, but efforts to sell this to an essentially clueless (at least in regards to the exigencies of police work) administration seemed hopeless.
After Columbine, our chief and our senior firearms trainer (a guy with about 30 years experience in the field) began to broach the idea of a patrol rifle to the administration, and it took about 2 years to get approval.
Initially, they were looking at a very futuristic bullpup-designed thing with a composite stock and optical/electronic sights. (Sorry, I only saw the flyer once, and don't know which model it was)
I thought this was a bad idea, and said so. Seems to me you'd want a weapon that most of the officers would have at least a passing familiarity with. I was glad to see they decided on the M-16 variant. Any of our guys with military backgrounds will be well familiar with this weapon.
Now, another gripe which I intend to bring up. (as the longest-serving member of the department, I have some "creds".)
They are only training the patrol sergeants with the weapon.
True, the guns will be in the supervisor's vehicle, and he is the designated backup officer.
However, I keep thinking of "worst-case-scenario". What if the sergeant snuffs it? Or gets wounded, or trips on a stairwell and breaks his leg....You get the idea. There's that nice, shiny rifle, and no one knows how to shoot it...
Everyone in patrol should be given at least a familiarization course.
Of course, you have to deal with the administration. When I took this job, 26 years ago, we were doing well to have our .38 special revolvers (in flap holsters, no less). Some of the "board" were openly against having armed police on campus, but apparently the riot of 1969 gave them something to think about.
Since then, it's been a gradual struggle. The only good thing our last chief did was get the weapons upgraded; we've had our Glock M23s for about 11 years now.
A shotgun would be a hard sell on the crowded campus. It's been brought up, but efforts to sell this to an essentially clueless (at least in regards to the exigencies of police work) administration seemed hopeless.
After Columbine, our chief and our senior firearms trainer (a guy with about 30 years experience in the field) began to broach the idea of a patrol rifle to the administration, and it took about 2 years to get approval.
Initially, they were looking at a very futuristic bullpup-designed thing with a composite stock and optical/electronic sights. (Sorry, I only saw the flyer once, and don't know which model it was)
I thought this was a bad idea, and said so. Seems to me you'd want a weapon that most of the officers would have at least a passing familiarity with. I was glad to see they decided on the M-16 variant. Any of our guys with military backgrounds will be well familiar with this weapon.
Now, another gripe which I intend to bring up. (as the longest-serving member of the department, I have some "creds".)
They are only training the patrol sergeants with the weapon.
True, the guns will be in the supervisor's vehicle, and he is the designated backup officer.
However, I keep thinking of "worst-case-scenario". What if the sergeant snuffs it? Or gets wounded, or trips on a stairwell and breaks his leg....You get the idea. There's that nice, shiny rifle, and no one knows how to shoot it...
Everyone in patrol should be given at least a familiarization course.
- Joined
- Apr 10, 2003
- Messages
- 306
mwerner, same arguments about training here, but this is still a new program. And rifles are just one small part of the equation.
If you really want to blow your administration's mind (and I know you've thought about this stuff already), ask them about NBC protective masks and clothing for officers. Or how about training on respirators in case of a hazmat incident? Has your local trauma center been briefed and trained on the possibility of mass casualties coming from a college campus in the event of a natural disaster, terrorist event or active shooter scenario? If not, why not? Check affirmative on all of the above for us, but we haven't started on the respirators--yet. I believe there's federal funding for some of this training and equipment. I won't even ask about access to armored vehicles.
Not like this country has already been caught with their pants down on all the above scenarios already or anything..................
If you really want to blow your administration's mind (and I know you've thought about this stuff already), ask them about NBC protective masks and clothing for officers. Or how about training on respirators in case of a hazmat incident? Has your local trauma center been briefed and trained on the possibility of mass casualties coming from a college campus in the event of a natural disaster, terrorist event or active shooter scenario? If not, why not? Check affirmative on all of the above for us, but we haven't started on the respirators--yet. I believe there's federal funding for some of this training and equipment. I won't even ask about access to armored vehicles.
Not like this country has already been caught with their pants down on all the above scenarios already or anything..................
Hehe- we're a bit ahead of the curve there. We got issued our NBC (used to call it CBR in the military...) stuff about a year after 9/11. Moon suits, boots, masks, gloves, duct tape (yes, duct tape...To seal up the suit around the mask, gloves, etc.)
We had a very large exercise at our campus involving police and firefighters from all over the area about two years ago. Interesting....Just like 9/11, no one knew who was in charge, and the various fire and police officials got into a big p****ing match over same.
Then, we had half-a-dozen guys "suit up" and prepare to go into the "contaminated" area. This was on a cool spring day, about 45 degrees. The guys waited around in their moon suits for about 30 minutes, and one fainted from the heat! They were not even doing anything.
I pointed out that it would be nice to have prescription-lens inserts for my mask, so that I could both see and breathe. So, my prescription was duly sent off, and about 6 months later my specs arrived. That's when we found out they had forgotten to get me a mask...
But we're up to snuff now, by George.
We do mass casualty exercises too; it's nice to be associated with a large medical school.
We had a very large exercise at our campus involving police and firefighters from all over the area about two years ago. Interesting....Just like 9/11, no one knew who was in charge, and the various fire and police officials got into a big p****ing match over same.
Then, we had half-a-dozen guys "suit up" and prepare to go into the "contaminated" area. This was on a cool spring day, about 45 degrees. The guys waited around in their moon suits for about 30 minutes, and one fainted from the heat! They were not even doing anything.
I pointed out that it would be nice to have prescription-lens inserts for my mask, so that I could both see and breathe. So, my prescription was duly sent off, and about 6 months later my specs arrived. That's when we found out they had forgotten to get me a mask...
But we're up to snuff now, by George.
We do mass casualty exercises too; it's nice to be associated with a large medical school.
Yep. We couldn't say no to the money. We have all the stuff too. We also drill at least one large one a year for mass casulty. We also train in NBC and hazmat. This is a fire department. I don't remember one involving NBC yet. I am sure that is coming pretty soon though and of course the reality is that the first - first responders will all be lableled as dead. Hopefully someone will see them laying around, if this is a fast acting agent, and start proper preperations.
We will see. And as far as the chain of command and the ICS etc. all the chiefs seem to have the system laid out pretty good. Everyone has a task and seems comfortable in it. They of course also cross train. That part of it seems to work pretty good. At least in drills.KR
- Joined
- Mar 14, 2006
- Messages
- 509
Read my experiences, If you read between the lines, you should be able to figure out where it was that i spent 18 months solid in a war zone. I was involved in the political aspects of the conflict, but after just a few weeks, I was carrying and unfortunately using a AK underfold. Most of my time was completely under the radar. I was not DoD, nor was I DoS, but we were there.
I am not a warfighter, but after 18 months of living with them I have some pretty good ideas of what worked and did not work. I was part of a small group that combined both people from School of the Americas and others more like me, who were brought into the environment to try to win hearts and minds. Some of our efforts worked, some did not.
I kept talking about the short barrels as a few here in the discussion were talking about them, and that was length of the xm177's carried for a time by our protection detail. However, most of the guys very quickly dropped them as although cool and status'sy, they needed several solid hits to drop the BG's and fairly intensive post mortems on those who succumbed left no doubt that vs a x39, in the areas we were working, the 5.56 left a lot to be desired. The ammo available in the early 80's did not work as expected on live targets. .22 cal holes going in, .22 call holes coming out. The G3's carried by the indigenous Army troops worked very well, even with 1960's ammo, and we saw very few fairly hit with a .308 continue to operate. The G3 was also able to function fairly well even with the level of care that a 17 YO draftee would muster.
Mid to late '82 we saw a moderate influx of FAL's of argentine manufacture show up, these were surplus'ed/war booty from the Falkland war which Mrs Thatcher donated to help subvert the ban on arms supplies. These were very well liked by the locals, and used a lot.
Weight of ammunition seemed to be a moot point with most of the people we saw. Even when M16's were available, most of the soldiers we saw were opting for something more, AK at the min. G3 or FAL as top choices.
I found the AK to work very well, The one I had had cyrillic writing on it, so I believe it was russian, although I have been told that both early Albanian and Romanian AK's can have the cyrillic characters on it. Cuba was handing out AK's like candy at the time. Most of the ammo was chinese, and it worked exceptionally well. My only complaint about the AK was the lack of finesse in the manufacture, there were many sharp edges and the trigger was not at all "target grade" although we had a guy who was the weaps trainer who traveled with us sometimes, and he did a great job in "dehorning" my AK and in fixing the trigger. He was from the School and he was from the west side of Chicago. He was the guy who spent the most time with us non soldiers getting us to let the "pro's" have the reins when stuff happened. I was pretty willing to listen to them, but we had a guy who was from Yale who fully intent on talking the rebels to death. He was Nutso. He spent the whole time I was with him talking about the political issues as if they could be separated from the economic, the military and psychological issues that were all intertwined. I was a believer at the time in a holistic approach to try to blend all three into a reason to see things our way.
Maximus Otter, A prairie dog is a pest. Like barnyard rats or mice in the corncrib. If one makes it back to its hole, it will be finished off by a ferret or snake. If your rat trap shows that in the morning all you have left is a leg, do you feel pain that the rat got away? An most Prairie Dogs meet with an instaneous death, just a puff of fur and a cloud of red mist.
My feelings about campus police seems to have struck a cord, but in my travels, I found very very few which I could consider "professional" police forces, I am 8 years out of that job, but I do not think that much as changed. There may be professional campus police forces, but in the schools I visited, most left far to be desired.
As far as the respirator side, start talking directly to staff/faculty who deal with such on a daily basis. You may find they have both the expertise and the equipment you want on the basis of OSHA demanding it. At several schools I visited, they had complete hazmat procedures inside the science buildings as OSHA would not allow worker's in the building without the gear and training being up to date. This was particularly true at the advanced medical/biology labs and anywhere where radioactive anything was handled. I believe it was William and Mary or Duke where I saw a drill being carried out based on aerosol release of mercury...IT was all staff, faculty and grad students who were on the contain team.
I am not a warfighter, but after 18 months of living with them I have some pretty good ideas of what worked and did not work. I was part of a small group that combined both people from School of the Americas and others more like me, who were brought into the environment to try to win hearts and minds. Some of our efforts worked, some did not.
I kept talking about the short barrels as a few here in the discussion were talking about them, and that was length of the xm177's carried for a time by our protection detail. However, most of the guys very quickly dropped them as although cool and status'sy, they needed several solid hits to drop the BG's and fairly intensive post mortems on those who succumbed left no doubt that vs a x39, in the areas we were working, the 5.56 left a lot to be desired. The ammo available in the early 80's did not work as expected on live targets. .22 cal holes going in, .22 call holes coming out. The G3's carried by the indigenous Army troops worked very well, even with 1960's ammo, and we saw very few fairly hit with a .308 continue to operate. The G3 was also able to function fairly well even with the level of care that a 17 YO draftee would muster.
Mid to late '82 we saw a moderate influx of FAL's of argentine manufacture show up, these were surplus'ed/war booty from the Falkland war which Mrs Thatcher donated to help subvert the ban on arms supplies. These were very well liked by the locals, and used a lot.
Weight of ammunition seemed to be a moot point with most of the people we saw. Even when M16's were available, most of the soldiers we saw were opting for something more, AK at the min. G3 or FAL as top choices.
I found the AK to work very well, The one I had had cyrillic writing on it, so I believe it was russian, although I have been told that both early Albanian and Romanian AK's can have the cyrillic characters on it. Cuba was handing out AK's like candy at the time. Most of the ammo was chinese, and it worked exceptionally well. My only complaint about the AK was the lack of finesse in the manufacture, there were many sharp edges and the trigger was not at all "target grade" although we had a guy who was the weaps trainer who traveled with us sometimes, and he did a great job in "dehorning" my AK and in fixing the trigger. He was from the School and he was from the west side of Chicago. He was the guy who spent the most time with us non soldiers getting us to let the "pro's" have the reins when stuff happened. I was pretty willing to listen to them, but we had a guy who was from Yale who fully intent on talking the rebels to death. He was Nutso. He spent the whole time I was with him talking about the political issues as if they could be separated from the economic, the military and psychological issues that were all intertwined. I was a believer at the time in a holistic approach to try to blend all three into a reason to see things our way.
Maximus Otter, A prairie dog is a pest. Like barnyard rats or mice in the corncrib. If one makes it back to its hole, it will be finished off by a ferret or snake. If your rat trap shows that in the morning all you have left is a leg, do you feel pain that the rat got away? An most Prairie Dogs meet with an instaneous death, just a puff of fur and a cloud of red mist.
My feelings about campus police seems to have struck a cord, but in my travels, I found very very few which I could consider "professional" police forces, I am 8 years out of that job, but I do not think that much as changed. There may be professional campus police forces, but in the schools I visited, most left far to be desired.
As far as the respirator side, start talking directly to staff/faculty who deal with such on a daily basis. You may find they have both the expertise and the equipment you want on the basis of OSHA demanding it. At several schools I visited, they had complete hazmat procedures inside the science buildings as OSHA would not allow worker's in the building without the gear and training being up to date. This was particularly true at the advanced medical/biology labs and anywhere where radioactive anything was handled. I believe it was William and Mary or Duke where I saw a drill being carried out based on aerosol release of mercury...IT was all staff, faculty and grad students who were on the contain team.
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- Sep 5, 2004
- Messages
- 4,029
To perhaps clean an issue......I am by no means knoicking the .30 cal stuff. The .308 is my go to round for long range work and I have owned several .308 semi's to boot. They work, I know this. The point I AM trying to make is that the M4 in .223 is a very capable platform. I think it is ideal for the tasks that are required of it in the modern theater. Not often are targets further than 2-300m and an M4 can make solid, reliable hits out to 600 w/ an Acog (done as part of our DM program) Do I have any illusion about the down range energy at that distance? Nope. I'd not want to catch one tho.
yea, the m4 is an outstanding weapon. i agree. and thats good to know that you guys got your mopp gear all squared away. most police funding, is often diverted to other stupid crap. which makes no sense whatsoever to me. how often do you guys do your nbc training? ya got all your decon, mopp gear exchange, m256 test kit etc etc familiarization courses twice a year? if not they should. you guys should get more medical training too. sure, its not your primary job, but like someone said earlier. we already got caught with our pants down once. we dont need it to happen again. and im not sure a 300 winmag is such a good idea in the city lol. good thinking, but too much red tape.
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- Mar 24, 2001
- Messages
- 8,326
I'm all for campus cops to have whatever any other cop has. A whole nasty situation can be stopped by a campus cop with training just as quick as a "regular" city cop. Which has the better training?
WHO KNOWS?
It could be ANYTHING. A department North of me offers free reimbursment of ALL AMMO COSTS for dudes shooting on their own, both patrol rifle and pistol. Normally they qualify once a year. Want to guess how many officers take advantage?
ZERO!
Another department near it has had 4 cops die from having their own guns turned on them. Solution? Level 4 holsters! Any good H to H training? No, even though Kelly Worden is about a half hour away, we'll buy more gadgets.
Now perhaps the "mall cop" campus security guy is a gunhead, and has his game locked on. Just as good a chance the campus dude is squared away as the city dude. The sad truth is cops are terrible shots, in fact, they have the worst record in the country. But a gunhead is a gunhead, no matter what department they're on. The first responder needs the right gear, and a .223 to the melon will do the job 99% of the time. If it develops into some sort of hostage thing with the glass and all that, go get a .308 from the locker and get all set up. Modern bullet design negates any concern for FMJ limitations, and if a shop is smart they'll grab some TAP or Nosler stuff, problem solved. Colleges are great terror targets, filled with stupid kids, and all manner of agenda filled whackjobs. Campus cops need just as much if not more training, same for school resource guys.
Guns up!
WHO KNOWS?
It could be ANYTHING. A department North of me offers free reimbursment of ALL AMMO COSTS for dudes shooting on their own, both patrol rifle and pistol. Normally they qualify once a year. Want to guess how many officers take advantage?
ZERO!
Another department near it has had 4 cops die from having their own guns turned on them. Solution? Level 4 holsters! Any good H to H training? No, even though Kelly Worden is about a half hour away, we'll buy more gadgets.
Now perhaps the "mall cop" campus security guy is a gunhead, and has his game locked on. Just as good a chance the campus dude is squared away as the city dude. The sad truth is cops are terrible shots, in fact, they have the worst record in the country. But a gunhead is a gunhead, no matter what department they're on. The first responder needs the right gear, and a .223 to the melon will do the job 99% of the time. If it develops into some sort of hostage thing with the glass and all that, go get a .308 from the locker and get all set up. Modern bullet design negates any concern for FMJ limitations, and if a shop is smart they'll grab some TAP or Nosler stuff, problem solved. Colleges are great terror targets, filled with stupid kids, and all manner of agenda filled whackjobs. Campus cops need just as much if not more training, same for school resource guys.
Guns up!
- Joined
- Oct 29, 2005
- Messages
- 19,834
i dont even like the level threes. we call one particular model the widowmaker. takes so damn long to get your gun out, the fight is going to be over.
worst record compared to who? hit ratio is low, but many times there are bullets coming back from a moving target. who else keeps statistics on shootings besides law enforcement?
most i know can shoot fairly well. but under pressure is obviously where it counts.