What’s just fine?

I'm really not sure why this thread has been so difficult. let try to get the point of one more time.

i am going to use speakers as an example. i have seen some speakers that are the "best" because the cover such a wide range of frequencies. at the high and the low ends many time these super speakers are operating in a range that the human ear just can not hear. but they can quantify the evidence based on science, computers etc. but if the human ear is not able to "hear" those frequencies then there is little practical purpose for designing a speaker that will operate in those frequencies even tho they might be the "best" according to the scientific data.

that kind of comparison is what i was hoping to get on this thread.

is the difference between something like the parks and straight mineral oil a real practical difference or is it one of those situations like the speaker where the graphs and charts look really cool but all that information is totally worthless in the actual function?

if this doesn't clear up what i was looking for then i give up.

jake
 
The funny thing is, the effects of park's is noticeable, not like it cannot be "heard" like the speaker frequencies. Jake, have you compared straight mineral oil to Park's?
 
If you're looking for validation for using mineral oil or vegetable oil instead of Parks because it's "good enough" here it is.
If you use something simple and slow quenching like 1070 to 1084 and the rest of your HT process is spot-on, the blade will be "good enough" for the average Joe Sportsman who will cut up his deer with the knife and never miss that extra 5-10 percent extra performance the blade could have had with an engineered quenchant. He would not know the difference unless he had a matched set , one treated in engineered quenchant, the other in "good enough " quenchant, either one cuts much better than the made in china knife he bought last week at Walmart which was "good enough".

I currently still use 130 degree olive oil for quenchant with O-1 and 1084 because I haven't ponied up the money for the good stuff. I realize that when I get that final step in my heat treating my blades will improve. When the doctors clear me to forge again I will be buying the real quenchant. The advantages are real and tangible and buying an engineered quenchant is another necessary step in eliminating vaiables

-Page
 
Jake, in the 70's a little speaker company named infinity started up. At a $65,000 price point there first entry into the audio world was serious one to say the least. The man who started the company left his job as the head of MIT's nuclear physics department for something "more challenging". The act of getting the sound waves produced by an entire symphony orchestra to come out of a box with a few flapping diaphragms is not just hard, its one of the great mysteries of the universe for those of us who love things like the human voice.

The fact is that many studies have shown a dramatic difference in the ability of humans to discern performance issues in speakers operating outside what science says we can measure. For instance only a sub woofer system capable of producing in the 10hz area can accurately reproduce the lowest notes from a stadium organ and still sound like an organ and not the rap bass from down the block. Similarly the accuracy of digital recordings should be beyond our ear to find fault with. However it is a common fact in truly high end audio that a well recorded and uncompressed 200g piece of vinyl is far more true to the texture and timbre of both the human voice and any acoustic instrument. Maybe one day commercially available digital mediums will reach this point, but for now a record simply keeps the sound waves in tact while our ear can hear the slicing up and recreation on a CD even though we should not be able to. All serious speaker companies use human ear to test there speakers before and after the labs. This is akin to a winery using a sommeliers before they bottle, they certainly wouldn't trust a machine to do it. Not even for a box wine.

In short there is a huge reason to create speakers that reproduce exactly whats on the recording regardless of that we can hear in a labs estimation. If you listen to the same 1940's jazz master on its original hand press, then a commercial release of that record, then a cd, and a WAV, MP3, compressed MP3 they will get noticeably worse as you go. True, the CD will have less background noise, but the voices and instruments lose there subtle textures and inflections. We have gotten used to the idea that recorded music is flat and lacks in comparison to the live performance. But when you hear something that was recorded correctly through the right system you will change your mind.

Now on to knives, proper quench doesn't even fall in this gray area of science. An oil quench on a steel that needs water speed is not going to be ideal. This is easily provable. Now if you have a source for consistent mineral oil that doesn't change in makeup or viscosity and it happens to meet the speed requirements for your O-1 steel then you may get a heat treat that is as spot on as it can be. But that is a lot of if's to get your good enough. on the other side of the spectrum that same oil on 1095 may just be to slow and produce a half ass heat treat. This is not something beyond human perception.

One of the guys that made me want to get started was RJ Martin. Every knife of his I have handled is SCARY SHARP. I know that gets thrown around a lot but I mean if you look at it wrong it will lay you open to the bone. In a short letter to him and the reply he confirmed that he was very picky and anal about his heat treating. I resolved then and there to never underestimate heat treating and everything I have heard/learned since has supported this idea. Proper heat treat on good steel will make you smile for years to come, to me that's better than good enough. If you want to get started and have oil hardening steel then get to work and have fun with some random oil quench. Chances are it will be good enough to make you happy and make you want to continue. But as you progress and want to make things better quenchant should be on that list in my opinion. Not that it is an important one.

/end ranting
 
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i'm not looking to validate any particular method..... i'm just trying to figure out what the actual differences is between methods.

people seem to think i am pushing for mineral oil.... that was just an example, not a plug for it.
if people would have read the origional post they would have seen that i said i was all for the good stuff. instead its been applied that i want to just quench in anything, this is not the case
i havent even heat treated a blade yet.... i'm just trying to figure it all out i thought this was the place to do that. there are so many inconsistent ideas on how everything should or could be done its quite confusing at times. and then people slam the thread slam me, hijack the thread, and i'm really just to the point of thinking this forum sucks.

this is my last post for a while.

take care

jake
 
strahd71 said:
i'm not looking to validate any particular method..... i'm just trying to figure out what the actual differences is between methods.

people seem to think i am pushing for mineral oil.... that was just an example, not a plug for it.
if people would have read the origional post they would have seen that i said i was all for the good stuff. instead its been applied that i want to just quench in anything, this is not the case
i havent even heat treated a blade yet.... i'm just trying to figure it all out i thought this was the place to do that. there are so many inconsistent ideas on how everything should or could be done its quite confusing at times. and then people slam the thread slam me, hijack the thread, and i'm really just to the point of thinking this forum sucks.

this is my last post for a while.

take care

jake
Click to expand...

I dont think you should get upset. When you ask questions about how to do something, the standard answer is going to be to do it the "standard" way. Since lots of scientific and manufacturing studies have led to the development of specific quenching mediums, those are most likely the answers you are going to get. I havent seen many in-depth scientific studies on non-standard quenching mediums simply because they are fairly inconsistent in quality or have already been proven to be less effective than the tested and developed quench mediums.

It seems you are looking for a scientific-type studie that supports or disproves the benefits of the quoted "proper" quenching mediums and some of the alternatives that get thrown around as "just fine."

I would say that a more productive way to react to a thread like this would be to say "well if no one else has done all the legwork to prove the scientific studies that were done to develop these quenching mediums, I need to either believe them or take it upon myself to prove otherwise."

I don't think its fair to get upset when what you are doing is similar to asking "wheres the proof that gasoline is the best fuel for cars?...all i see are these complex scientific studies on how engines use gasoline and I dont understand them...maybe putting an acetone/whiskey mix in my car would be just fine"
 
I'll likely take a lot of guff for this, but I've watched this thread from the beginning, and I am sorry that its gone the way it has.
Jake was asking a question based on his experience, and interest in the craft.....basically just looking for a starting point, and trying to understand things. A lot of you folks need to think about how much you knew when you first thought about doing this, and where your knowledge level was then. Thats where Jake is now. Rather than trying to cram something down his throat, give the information, and GENTLY steer him in the right direction. I'm all for doing things with the "proper" tools and materials, but I also remember starting out with an old picnic table for a workbench, and a brake drum forge, and a container of ATF... because at that time I was still rolling up pennies to buy milk for my daughter, when feeding my family and keeping the wolf from the door were a greater priority than knifemaking.
I doubt that any of us started out with top of the line tools, or the "proper" anything. Even if your independently wealthy and can afford to purchase top of the line tools/supplies from the start, its still an evolutionary journey, and with each new era, new frontiers are crossed, new tools and techniques tried, and new discoveries made. Sometimes it seems that folks forget about that, and although we are all passionate about our own choices, we need to realize that when someone asks a question, we need to think about where they are in their journey before we jump to conclusions answering it.
I could go on, but suffice to say that nobody cares what you know, until they know you care.
 
David Schott said:
I would say that a more productive way to react to a thread like this would be to say "well if no one else has done all the legwork to prove the scientific studies that were done to develop these quenching mediums, I need to either believe them or take it upon myself to prove otherwise."
Click to expand...

This is the direction I also think should be taken. No one had the answers you wanted, so you need to find them or take the information already available at face value.

I'm sorry if I'm one who slammed you, I never intended any of my posts to be directed toward you or the topic. I hope I gave a clear view of what I consider to be "just fine".

On a side note, I think that anyone who has been here as long and has as many posts should already be aware that threads like this one always have arguments and always have off topic posts. We all know this is the nature of these threads.
 
Ed Caffrey said:
I'll likely take a lot of guff for this, but I've watched this thread from the beginning, and I am sorry that its gone the way it has.
Jake was asking a question based on his experience, and interest in the craft.....basically just looking for a starting point, and trying to understand things. A lot of you folks need to think about how much you knew when you first thought about doing this, and where your knowledge level was then. Thats where Jake is now. Rather than trying to cram something down his throat, give the information, and GENTLY steer him in the right direction. I'm all for doing things with the "proper" tools and materials, but I also remember starting out with an old picnic table for a workbench, and a brake drum forge, and a container of ATF... because at that time I was still rolling up pennies to buy milk for my daughter, when feeding my family and keeping the wolf from the door were a greater priority than knifemaking.
I doubt that any of us started out with top of the line tools, or the "proper" anything. Even if your independently wealthy and can afford to purchase top of the line tools/supplies from the start, its still an evolutionary journey, and with each new era, new frontiers are crossed, new tools and techniques tried, and new discoveries made. Sometimes it seems that folks forget about that, and although we are all passionate about our own choices, we need to realize that when someone asks a question, we need to think about where they are in their journey before we jump to conclusions answering it.
I could go on, but suffice to say that nobody cares what you know, until they know you care.
Click to expand...

Ed thanks for posting this. I took it to heart and hope I didnt seem to be slamming anyone in any of my responses. I agree that context of a question is more important than the question in some cases. The tough part is how to answer in that context without being misleading.

Is Veggie oil fine? It was fine for me all througout when I was first starting out. I didnt even preheat it. Then I began preheating it and got better results, so heated veggie oil was fine. I didnt even read the technical threads on quench oils as I was focusing on how to make a knife-like object without killing myself or destroying 5 knives in the process. Time passed, I got better at things and began to worry about them less and less. This allowed me more time to begin thinking about each step in the process and how to make it better, and at that point the very first thing I focused on was heat treating.

I think the tough thing is when someone is new enough to not "need" the most technically advanced discussion on quenchants, but is asking questions that basically require exactly that to answer properly. Asking if veggie oil is "fine" as a quenchant is a loaded question, in other words.
 
Ed, you are correct. I have however seen a lot of people say that mineral oil, warm water and brine are all ways to do it without stepping up to industrial quenchants. As well as saying that you have to define good enough for yourself. I don't know if there is anymore info to give. How do you say "whatever mineral oil, or goop, or atf you have doesn't have a specific quench speed we can share with you." without saying it. Many people have even gone on to recommend what speed for specific steels. Short of producing the mystical chart that everyone wants to see and no one possesses that tells people what speed random quenchants are, is there anything more to pass on?

Jake, I hope you see the fact that people are telling you to get started and have fun. If you post a specific steel that you are using I'm sure that people would either suggest oil, water or brine for cheap quenching depending on said steel. But when you ask why those things aren't good enough for some of us selling our knives, I think we have given honest answers even if there are some jokes injected. There is no blanket statement about what is good enough that we can give you. There are just to many variables. As a side note, my stereo answer came off very stuffy. I just have a lot of respect for good audio and meant no disrespect to anyone. I am a poor knife maker and listen to a crappy stereo, but I do have a pail of Parks in my garage. So for me it is a priority. It doesn't have to be for you but if you keep making knives I bet it will be somewhere down the line.

Jake, I am sorry if anything I have said was offensive. I have gotten more than a ton of help from this forum but a lot of it has come with sarcasm, read the stickies and learn to google. I must say it is worth every chuckle and doh.
 
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strahd71 said:
i'm not looking to validate any particular method..... i'm just trying to figure out what the actual differences is between methods.

people seem to think i am pushing for mineral oil.... that was just an example, not a plug for it.
if people would have read the origional post they would have seen that i said i was all for the good stuff. instead its been applied that i want to just quench in anything, this is not the case
i havent even heat treated a blade yet.... i'm just trying to figure it all out i thought this was the place to do that. there are so many inconsistent ideas on how everything should or could be done its quite confusing at times. and then people slam the thread slam me, hijack the thread, and i'm really just to the point of thinking this forum sucks.

this is my last post for a while.

take care

jake
Click to expand...


Jake, what size blades do you intend to work with, and in what steel? If you want to send me your address I have around 2 gallons of Parks #50 left that I would be happy to send to you when I get time after the Blade show if it would meet your quenching needs. If it will work it would then render this thread a moot point.

Ed I also give your points a :thumbup:.
 
thats very generous of you Kevin...... but no thanks. that stuff is too expensive to accept.

maybe some day we can just talk one way or another and maybe then i would be able to convey what it was i was asking.

untill then thanks again for the generous offer!

jake
 
The expense of the stuff is really a matter of perspective, this is what is left of a 55 Gallon drum I bought for around $250 (do the math;)). That was some time ago and the price has increased slightly but not as much as you would probably think.;)

Oil or not, drop me an e-mail anyhow, there was much more both of us were getting at than we could clear up within the thread, and that is why I feel so bad about how I came off to you.
 
Kevin, I love your sig line!
I said something similar to a group of reenactors over the weekend

-Page
 
Kevin, your offer to Jake was very generous, and most admirable I applaud your sense of fairness and goodwill. That is rare in todays world. Hats off to you. Wick Ellerbe
 
strahd71 said:
It makes me wonder. I understand that the better quenching oils will get the most out of the blades with the right HT method. But if you take two identical blades same heat treat methods but quench one in parks or aaa oil and the other in mineral oil would there be that huge of a difference?

What would be the numerical difference on a scale of one to ten? One being poorest and ten being the best?

Its hard to understand it all. In actual performance how much do you really gain? Is there a difference in practical performance?

jake
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Jake, you will not get an answer to this question here. To ask the question is heretical. There can be no middle ground. You are either a disciple or an infidel, and by asking for an answer to these questions means that you are a "flat earther". No one will tell you how much you will gain with the Parks 50 over mineral oil and by asking you only expose yourself to ridicule. You will notice on these type of threads most forumites will silently stand in the back of the room. The ones that have been around awhile know that to interject (particularly if not imbedded firmly into the commercial quenchant camp or at least appearing that way)into the conversation will bring harsh barbs, lots of quotation marks and ridicule.
You will get no objective comparison!:confused:
Good luck!
Alden
 
Alden Sherrodd said:
Jake, you will not get an answer to this question here. To ask the question is heretical. There can be no middle ground. You are either a disciple or an infidel, and by asking for an answer to these questions means that you are a "flat earther". No one will tell you how much you will gain with the Parks 50 over mineral oil and by asking you only expose yourself to ridicule. You will notice on these type of threads most forumites will silently stand in the back of the room. The ones that have been around awhile know that to interject (particularly if not imbedded firmly into the commercial quenchant camp or at least appearing that way)into the conversation will bring harsh barbs, lots of quotation marks and ridicule.
You will get no objective comparison!:confused:
Good luck!
Alden
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I think that is a very unfair, and twisted assesment of the majority of people on this forum. I cannot say that this doen't happen, but I think you are greatly exaggerating an occassional occurance, and painting all the members of this forum with a broad brush. The same also happens on many forums. It is not right, and should be discouraged, but that is the call of the moderators.
 
LRB, I am sorry if you think I was (I guess I worded it that way) pointing to all the members of this forum. That is by no means what I meant.
As to pointing out my post to the moderators, that is a little heavy handed.
Asking for an objective comparison (maybe a percentage of martensite achieved, whatever) on quenchants is more inflammatory than asking which is a better baptismal medium Dasani or Nile River water.
If you don't believe me, try it.
Those that use other quenchants beside the commercial ones will not openly admit it here. It would be too painful.

Alden
 
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