What’s just fine?

ramsay is an awesome chef with unheard of loyalty from his workers... he interviews like a principled man

kevin maybe you are a wee bit on the high horse lately but we have learned a ton of technical stuff at the same time... i don't mind a bit, you don't need to be a saint

it's hard to stand by and let people discuss things when you already know the answer!
 
Kevin R. Cashen said:
I would have to say that is an accurate comparison since I feel that Gordon Ramsay is an arrogant jerk who could use a belt in the mouth.
Click to expand...

wow, you truely do know everything:rolleyes:......how the heck you know his name? hell i didnt even know the show existed till the other day.....sorry to go off topic, but this topic is begining to make me wanna :yawn: or AHAAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH...scream


on a serious note, kevin, how would you compare the results of industrial quenchants to water quench???
The water quench is something im experimenting with, and very interested in persuing.
 
Last edited:
Back to what I asked just as this was going off topic, does ice water work to cool oil quenched blades? The ice water would have a slower quench than warm water, but much faster than oil. I'm just curious because I had thought about that for a while and just wondered if anyone knew an answer.
 
page,

my knife making has been very limited due to finances! my wife graduates as an Rn tomorrow so.... and its just now getting warm here to be able to do anything.

i had ordered a couple pieces of 1095 quite a while ago. so thats what i've been working with.

i'm not married to it... it just happens to be what i have. i really want to try some other steels... soon hopefully

jake
 
go mike said:
Back to what I asked just as this was going off topic, does ice water work to cool oil quenched blades? The ice water would have a slower quench than warm water, but much faster than oil. I'm just curious because I had thought about that for a while and just wondered if anyone knew an answer.
Click to expand...

my understanding is that on an oil quench steel water would initially quench too fast while in contact with the steel , then almost no quench at all where the steam bubbles are (cavitation) the physical stresses on a blade that i being cooled too quickly are likely (not guaranteed but do you wanna roll dice?) to cause that dreaded "ping" sound

-Page
 
page i think that's right... we need fast quench down to Ms, then gentle quench...

i don't think we want to depend on the vapour jacket to protect the steel


"As to the ice water quench:
Room temp water quenches fast because, once that vapor jacket collapses, the cooling ability of water is very good. This brings down the steel temp faster than is desired often, resulting in warpage or cracking. Room temperature oil cools too slow because it has lower convection than warm oil.
Now, if you used ice cold water, it would not affect the vapor stage much at all ( maybe make it shorter?), and it would make a faster cooling curve for the steel once the jacket collapsed. To slow down water quench, you heat it up to near boiling. This however has other problems with a greatly prolonged vapor jacket due to the big change in the vapor pressure. So the best guidelines are use 120-130F oil, and 80-100F water.
Stacy "


"
 
I posted an answer to that question, but the OT burried it.

bladsmth said:
As to the ice water quench:
Room temp water quenches fast because, once that vapor jacket collapses, the cooling ability of water is very good. This brings down the steel temp faster than is desired often, resulting in warpage or cracking. Room temperature oil cools too slow because it has lower convection than warm oil.
Now, if you used ice cold water, it would not affect the vapor stage much at all ( maybe make it shorter?), and it would make a faster cooling curve for the steel once the jacket collapsed. To slow down water quench, you heat it up to near boiling. This however has other problems with a greatly prolonged vapor jacket due to the big change in the vapor pressure. So the best guidelines are use 120-130F oil, and 80-100F water.
Stacy
Click to expand...
 
I just did a yahoo search for Ms in history and didnt get anything.

i'm still excited about the turkey quench!

so has anyone actually ever tested different quench methods? or does everyone just pick something and say "this way or nothing" or "it works just fine" with no real basis for it?

jake
 
strahd71 said:
I just did a yahoo search for Ms in history and didnt get anything.

jake
Click to expand...

AS = Ah S**t
BS = Bull S**t
MS = More S**t
Phd = Piled Higher and Deeper

After almost 33 years in education, I understand these things.:D:D

I once had a co-worker, who, when he receiving his "Phd", informed me that when I addressed him, I should use "Dr.Tom". I told him, "OK Tom, it took you 8 years to get your Phd., and it will take another 8 years to get over it".
 
Jake,

it's a legitimate question,

but lemme tell you about the local paper producer...

losses thousands $ an hour when a slitter blade fails

or the local plywood plant...

or the meat processor...

if they could have better heat treatment they would...

saves hundreds of thousands a year

but does it matter to me as a knifemaker? not that much, people buy my stuff because they buy my "look" and test procedures ( shaving a sasquatch, batoning through steel, slashing a SUV, chopping propane tank in half... reams or 3 or 4" rope, 2 by 4s, whatever, looks good)

i like turkey cooked too...

just don't quench in salmon... waste of good fish
 
In a subject like history it is more likely people wopuld get MAs. MS is a degree associated with science and engineering
 
While I like the idea of trying all these home made quenchants in a truly scientific fashion, I think it would be both counterproductive and fall upon def ears.

First of all, why assume that the megalith companies that now make quenchant didn't try all these home brews first. In the search for perfect quenchant I'm sure the first step was things like mineral oil and water, even motor oil was evaluated I would think. In the end a mineral oil with additives and salts gave them the best results. So I'm sure somewhere in the past these tests have been done even if the results where not shared with us.

Second, if said tests where done and the results came back that (omg shocking) quenchants actually make the best quenchants, would anyone currently not using them care? To say that just because Kevin says something doesn't make it right or noticeably better is putting way to much on his shoulders. I personally have seen pictures of steel that is not fully hardened on threads such as this. This is not opinion of scientific mumbo jumbo. It's just the way things are. It is neither Kevin's amazing mind or his desire to get past the crux of the problem that makes a blade fully convert, or not (No offense of course Kevin). It seems to me that all the people that bemoan science have no problem that said science makes them safer in cars or makes sure that jet they are getting on stays in the air. Questioning someones sources is one thing, saying the info they gave doesn't affect my process is another. But do we really need to say "science isn't making my blade better or worse, I don't make knives for lab use blah blah". I have always found it funy that some groups are held back by other groups of people or detractors. We knife makers seem to be our own worst enemies. Science (or at least the cause and effect nature of material manipulation) has been making our knives better and worse for all times. Ancient smiths knew enough to pay close attention to reduce issues with there knives. I bet they wish they had the information and data we have access to today!
 
Last edited:
dustin i agree for the most part. i'm just trying to figure out the why of it all. i'm not real smart and i dont really understand all the scientific stuff. my ultimate hope for this thread was some practicle reasoning..... atoms, carbons, etc. just dont mean anything to me.


as to the companies telling us the truth on anything.... i dont know about that... seems like they lie alot if you watch the news much.

jake
 
Jake, I hear you 100%. I don't understand everything I read in the heat treating manuals or technical papers. But, I try to get as much out of each as possible and really value the help.

Throughout the thread you seem to have a genuine desire to grasp something about quenching mediums that no one has been able to spit out. I'm sorry if we are missing your real question because it is so common for these threads to take the same path regardless of how they start. I don't want to be the guy to simplify the subject because I lack the overall understanding that many do possess. Do you want to know, in every day terms, why some steels need to be cooled within a specific time window and why some quenches are unreliable at achieving that window time and time again? Are you looking for a chart of sorts as for what homebrew to use with what steel? The first I am sure someone could provide you with. The second I haven't seen. Since 2 types of mineral oil or car oil will differ from one another and therefore effect the quench. That makes it inaccurate and possibly works against trying to provide people with closer to exact data on cooling speeds. There was a paper on metalurgy for knifemakers that someone posted a long time ago. Maybe someone still has the link. It helped me understand a lot more than I previously had.

I hope you can take something out of this thread, I hate to just be one more person on one side of the argument. I'm not a science is all encompassing kind of guy but cooling metal at the proper speed isn't a mystical or personal question. If you are just doing it for fun whats the difference, there are a million suggestions for quenching. If you are making knives to sell then I don't think the cost of some parks should be an issue considering all the other costs that go into making a knife. I do think it is funny that no one comes around arguing to use whatever steel you find lying around or that crappy sandpaper is actually more cost effective than good abrasives. But when it comes to quenching few want to say that good quench gives predictable consistent and repeatable results. It's hard for me to think that wouldn't be a good thing in such an important part of the process.

Also I must say, while I'm sure all steel and quenching companies try to sugar coat there process I don't think crucible or heat bath would stay in business long if they gave people false data sheets or heat treat specs and speeds. If a couple endmills you bought shattered when they touched metal you wouldn't buy from that company anymore. I'm not suggesting that there aren't half ass companies in the business, but they aern't usually the ones we turn to for info on treating steels.
 
Last edited:
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top