What are local knife shops thinking?

[bdmicarta]

You want to get rid of all brick and mortar high end knife dealers? Only buy off the internet. If you have a good store, suck it up and buy something there regularly. If you never support a local business, you can't complain when they close up. If price is the only thing you look for, then the internet will always win. If you want service, you want to select "your knife" out of a bunch of the same model, you want to test the ergos on 2-3 different models, then you should give some support to the local shop.

We've become far to focused on price and have forgotten service and relationships. I've bought knives that really didn't do much for me at a knife show because the maker was so nice and I wanted to support his work. While that knife has sat in a drawer, I'm still glad I spent the money and hope that maker was able to keep at it.

I think a person should support local stores if they want the local stores to stay, but some local stores make it difficult. I've tried to buy (things other than knives) from local stores and other than shock at the prices, it is hard to find what I want in stock at local stores. I don't know what pricing level it takes to make a store work. I know that with other products there are stores that charge high prices but sometimes there are other stores that sell at a good discount and manage to be successful.

I didn't know of any big stores in my area except for "_____ of ______", and they are pretty far from me. I see some limited amount of knives at Walmart and at local sporting good stores, but I usually have to buy knives on the internet.

 

[JWRobinson]

Does anyone else politely discuss the prices and the local shops? We all know some of the more common items can often be found at 50% or so off of the MSRP on line and I tell the proprietors "look I'd love to buy that new Blur but that's about double the going rate" Of the three shops I frequent they will give a better price without grumbling if you bring it up. In my case though, I'm usually after higher end items that are not as deeply discounted on line and I also tell them store owner "that's about 20% more than on line but I'm fine with your asking price"

I'm not trashing online sales BTW: Everything I've heard about Kershaw guy for instance, is very positive and he's active on the forum so I will be shopping with him in the future.

 

[Dorito Monk]

I went to a certain knife shop in DFW today, and saw a knife which sells for $210 online, priced at $400.... Also, many other $100-150 knives priced at $200-300. I honestly don't understand how they actually sell anything and stay in business. I understand you need to make a profit, but we're talking about prices that are 50-100% over online pricing. This is a huge shop, which has got to be getting good dealer prices. As an avid knife buyer/user/collector, I'd be more than happy to spend $5-10 more at a local business to help them stay in business, but when it gets into the $20-200 markup range, I quickly turn into a "I'm just looking" customer. I'd figure if they sold 3-5 knives at the prices they charge, they could easily sell to 4-5x as many people if they brought their prices down to a reasonable amount. Right now you're looking at product that sits on shelves for years.

TL;DR, why do most local knife shops feel they need to make 100% profit on the knives they sell?

Yep, that's pretty much what my local knife shops are like. Kutters knives is especially guilty of this - the first knife I bought, and the knife that ended up getting me into this mess, is a Kershaw Cyclone that I got from them a few years ago. I paid something like 100$ for it, before taxes and stuff. I bought a second one a couple of months later for all of about 32$ from an ebay store.

I worked with a guy one time who had a Kershaw Spec Bump that he bought from Kutters (I think this was the store he mentioned...). He claimed it was a "300$ Knife", because that's what he paid for it.

Nevermind the fact that this particular store had all the reliable, knowledgeable friendliness of a hungover badger with down's syndrome the last time I went there...

Needless to say, I don't buy knives locally any more, except on rare occasions when I find a gem in the bargain bin or something at a sporting goods store. Found a new condition old Vic Soldier a few months ago for a song, for example, but that's the exception.

 

[sigsoup]

Funny I was just at a local knife shop in ft too, I spent a good hour looking at all the knives had a guy ask me what I liked , we talked steels , brands , even about this forum. When I made my purchase (umnumzuun) they gave me a free shirt! Bu best of all I didn't have to worry about blade play, finishing issues, getting lost in the mail or anything that people complain about when they order online. I also got a guy that if he gets somthing in that he thinks I would like he will call me and give me first dibs. To each their own I guess I like relationships and supporting local business.

 

[kreole]

Funny I was just at a local knife shop in ft too, I spent a good hour looking at all the knives had a guy ask me what I liked , we talked steels , brands , even about this forum. When I made my purchase (umnumzuun) they gave me a free shirt! Bu best of all I didn't have to worry about blade play, finishing issues, getting lost in the mail or anything that people complain about when they order online. I also got a guy that if he gets somthing in that he thinks I would like he will call me and give me first dibs. To each their own I guess I like relationships and supporting local business.

Did you pay more the Umnumzaan there than you would new online?

 

[sigsoup]

P.s. I will be in midland Odessa so I will defiantly have a new purchase by the end of Tuesday from a local shop there!!

 

[sigsoup]

No they were cool , but I think Chris reeves has a set dealer price. I could be wrong.

 

[00ChevyScott]

No they were cool , but I think Chris reeves has a set dealer price. I could be wrong.

They do. Did you look at the prices on their Spydercos? Also this thread isn't about a particular shop but retail shops in general.

 

[killgar]

But what incentive are these stores giving me to support them? They're sure not giving me a competitive price. I said it before, and I'll say it again, if their prices were within 5-10% of online prices, I'd be a customer for life. And we're talking about their price vs internet prices, not the prices they're actually buying the knives for. If their price is 100% above internet prices, I can only imagine how high that is over their actual dealer cost. I do not feel blindly spending your money is a wise choice for a consumer. A few dollars here and there isn't a big deal, but paying 100% markup for "general principle" isn't smart nor wise.

When you talk about store prices versus online prices are you comparing the store prices to MSRP or are you comparing them to the below MSRP discounted prices that online vendors often offer? For reasons already mentioned, online vendors can often afford to sell below MSRP. Are the stores you're talking about adding a 100% mark-up to MSRP prices or are they simply selling knives for twice the amount of the online vendors DISCOUNTED prices?

 

[00ChevyScott]

When you talk about store prices versus online prices are you comparing the store prices to MSRP or are you comparing them to the below MSRP discounted prices that online vendors often offer? For reasons already mentioned, online vendors can often afford to sell below MSRP. Are the stores you're talking about adding a 100% mark-up to MSRP prices or are they simply selling knives for twice the amount of the online vendors DISCOUNTED prices?

Some were at MSRP, some were over MSRP. Selling things at MSRP is a stretch though, and I don't base anything I'm buying off of an MSRP value given. That's like using the list price you often see in catalogs, but then below it is the "sale" price which is generally the standard selling price for most items. Nothing is ever really sold for MSRP these days (not even cars) unless there is a high demand for it, or you just don't want to sell it.

 

[The Government]

Here is a big issue regarding knife prices in small B&M stores:

They do not buy directly from manufacturers because they can't commit to making huge orders with a single knife brand. What that means, is they get sucked into ordering their knives from a "business to business" distributor who allows them to order only a few knives from each different company that they want to carry.

This is attractive to them because they can diversify their knife case and still be able to sell on a micro scale. If they ordered directly from manufacturers they would probably only have enough money to choose a single maker, and even then, that may only allow them to acquire a small handful of different models from that maker (and they will have tons of back-stock).

It is significant to note, that these "business to business" distributors are selling to B&M shops at prices that are almost even with the end prices we can find online. The businesses who are focused on the internet and who sell to end customers have large enough economies of scale to nearly match the prices being paid by B&M shops to begin with, because they can afford to buy directly from multiple manufacturers.

 

[00ChevyScott]

Here is a big issue regarding knife prices in small B&M stores:

They do not buy directly from manufacturers because they can't commit to making huge orders with a single knife brand. What that means, is they get sucked into ordering their knives from a "business to business" distributor who allows them to order only a few knives from each different company that they want to carry.

This is attractive to them because they can diversify their knife case and still be able to sell on a micro scale. If they ordered directly from manufacturers they would probably only have enough money to choose a single maker, and even then, that may only allow them to acquire a small handful of different models from that maker (and they will have tons of back-stock).

It is significant to note, that these "business to business" distributors are selling to B&M shops at prices that are almost even with the end prices we can find online. The businesses who are focused on the internet and who sell to end customers have large enough economies of scale to nearly match the prices being paid by B&M shops to begin with, because they can afford to buy directly from multiple manufacturers.

I feel this is the problem with the smaller knife shop I spoke of earlier. I have mentioned prices I've paid for knives online and I can tell by the look on his face that it is under what he pays for the knives he stocks. He's a good guy and I try to stop in and talk to him when I can, and I did buy a Case knife from him for my Nephew (yes even with the markup). The larger knife store keeps a large enough inventory that I don't feel that was the problem.

 

[Minibear464]

In my case, I have a nice shop around 2 miles from me, and pretty decently priced. It's obviously more expensive, but the Enduras there are around $65- nothing too outrageous. To me, the extra price is just the charge for being able to handle the vast assortment of knives they have.

 

[TPVT]

I can't say as i have any first-hand experience at local cutlery shops...because there aren't any here. i try. i go to all the gun shops and sporting goods stores in hopes i will find some knives...but nuthin. i am one that really likes to "handle the wares"...so to speak.

almost everything can be had cheaper online than in B&M shops. it's too bad really. but, for me, with skis or baseball cards, i literally tell the guy..."look, i would love to buy local with you, but i can get 'this' for $XXX online. Is this price firm?" and sometimes it is, and sometimes it isn't. i leave it up to them.

sounds like you already have tried some of these tactics. just felt like chiming in. i am typically ok with spending 20% more buying local, if i have the choice. but, you're right...after that, i typicall say, "i can't do it."

 

[The Government]

I feel this is the problem with the smaller knife shop I spoke of earlier. I have mentioned prices I've paid for knives online and I can tell by the look on his face that it is under what he pays for the knives he stocks. He's a good guy and I try to stop in and talk to him when I can, and I did buy a Case knife from him for my Nephew (yes even with the markup). The larger knife store keeps a large enough inventory that I don't feel that was the problem.

I have had a very similar experience with a small B&M knife shop that I used to go to (I no longer live in the area). What kept me coming back were custom knives from local makers, as well as used knives that they bought and sold. The customs and used knives were actually a really great value.

 

[KrisOK]

I believe that there is only one dedicated knife shop left here in OKC, and unfortunately, the owner has gotten a bit of a bad reputation. Most of his business is knife sharpening, and of late he's gotten some REALLY bad reviews on review sites. Plus, his hours of operation are VERY erratic. I've gone there several times during what should be business hours only to find the store closed. Finally I just gave up.

Other than that, we have some smoke shops that deal in knives as a sideline, and one western clothing outfitter that has a resonable selection of knives. All of these have prices that are 50% or greater above what I can get online. I'd LOVE to find a local knife store to call 'HOME', but it's not going to happen were I live apparantly.

 

[eisman]

paying 100% markup for "general principle" isn't smart nor wise

The simple fact of the matter is that outside of the USA every tier in the retail system has a common expectation of doubling it's money as fair profit. That is the cost of doing business, and it's a realistic cost based on centuries of trade. Companies that can't do that die.

The three tiers of business are price, service, and quality, and the old saying was to succeed you needed to beat the competition in two of the three. The American consumer is increasingly price oriented, over eitherof the other two. This is a pattern instilled by the ability of the dollar and infrastucture to support the importation of low cost merchandise, and is a result of having the worlds largest economy. It can't last without changing the way the world does business, hence the power of the internet and the worlds greatest transportation system.

Still, this comes at a huge hidden cost. We no longer can get the quality of goods as we drive those manufactures out ofbusiness, and we lose the ability to offer services which take years to train. This pattern is now decades old (it started in the 1950's) and most people cannot relate to what their grandparents found common practice for business.

I've worked in the firearms industry for over 15 years. For major companies. Few of which are around any more. It was the cost of doing business that changed that industry. In my lifetime I went from seeing a gun shop in every city of 40,000 people to having to drive 100 miles to find a good one. 30 years ago it was easier to find a gun shop than a McDonalds in Los Angeles. Trying to survive with a customer base that thought 10% profit on their product was fair killed them.

Understand, it was not until information sources became common that the consumer fixated on price/profit margin. Shotgun News was the bane of the gun industry when it appeared on the scene, and customers armed with knowledge of pricing based on that source changed the bsiness model. The internet has delt other industries the same blow. 50 years ago nobody even asked what dealer cost of a manufactured item was. There was no place to get that info reliably.

You ask how they can survive? They won't; enjoy them while you can; go buy somewhere else, just realize you're the one responsible for their loss.

 

[frenchmade]

Look at it this way, if their business plan wasn't working they'd go out of business. Enough people must be paying their prices otherwise they wouldn't be in business.

Why would people pay higher prices at a local store? Well, the term "pig in a poke" comes to mind. Maybe people like being able to handle and inspect the actuall knife they're going to buy before buying it rather than taking the gamble of ordering one online, discovering it has flaws, then having to go through the hassle of sending it back for warranty work. I don't know how many times I've read on this forum about people REPEATEDLY sending a particular knife back for warranty work because the manufacturer couldn't get it right.

And of course, some people don't want to wait on shipping or pay a high shipping charge for express delivery. Some people are willing to pay extra for immediate gratification. Ever order a knife you really wanted, wait every day being tourtured by anticipation, only to have something go wrong in the shipping process? Like maybe your knife gets lost or stolen or sent to the wrong place? Internet purchasing is far from perfect.

And of course some people feel a certain amount of loyalty to a local shop that treats them well and lets them spend hours fondling different knives, even when they're not planning on buying that day. Some people like good customer service and dealing face-to-face with the people they are buying from. Personally, if a local shop owners were cool and treated me right, and let me get my fingerprints all over their knives without ever trying to pressure me into buying something, I'd feel like a scumbag if I just USED them to check knives out and then went home and ordered the same knives online.

This is the exact same way that I feel.

I feel like I have a relationship with the store that I buy from. I like going there and talking knives.
I also like that if I know im going to make a big purchase, like say a ti-fluted military. I can look at 7 or 8 of them and hand pick the one that I want.
If I ordered online, then I might receive one with a flaw or something that I didn't like. And by the time that I was done shipping the knife back and forth I would have spent the money that I saved by buying online.
Might as well support the local knife shop and help keep them around.

 

[pap11y]

In Australia I am paying at least 100% markup on what I could have the product delivered to my door.

That being said I don't pay sales tax like a business and I don't have to outlay for a huge amount of stock.

On online reseller in AUS is now selling items with a 4 week lead time from the purchase time i.e. After you buy it, it will be shipped out 4 weeks after you have payed. I payed extra to buy through them to look after my local business and they repaid me by taking 6-7 weeks....

I could have it delivered to my door in less time.

There has never been a place in Sydney that I know of where you could hold all of the brand of knife i.e. bark river knives, to see which gives you the best fit. It was mainly gun shops that have knives and they are now few and far between..

Many businesses in aus got nailed as they purchased their stock at 60-70c to the dollar then we went to parity with the USD.

Gonna be tough times for all resellers out there.

 

[underdog406]

Considering that knives are tools, and when cared for can last for life times being passed down if its of any half decent quality, with a already niche market.
Having been on both sides of the market, both B&M dealer and buyer, albeit not a knife dealer. A B&M store front costs are huge, rent, storage space and power, rent also varies where its going to be located, some places might have cheap rent with a very nice space, but it simply isnt going to get any customers since well, it is a niche market when most people dont know the difference in steel, how to maintain a knife or local knife laws.
Typed out my experience be deleted it since it could be a minority and dont to bad mouth the local B&M despite the fact they probably wont ever see it, in short, its kinda hard to support the local B&M when they sell at almost twice the MSRP while the service is found wanting.