What does "at the buyers risk" really mean?

[CUTS LIKE A KRIS]

As an international buyer here I often read "buyer assumes all risk....." type of statements and would like to know exactly what is meant by it. I take it to mean "if the package doesn't get to you that is your problem, don't contact me because I really don't care and won't help if there is any issue". As such I choose to not start a transaction with that seller. With that statement given in threads, I do jot feel that I can trust the seller. With the caveat, what is stopping the seller from sending an empty box, shipping something else, or even purposely shipping a damaged box with the excuse that it must gave fallen out- sorry but tough. If you accept no responsibility for the shipment then if it never gets to the buyer then does that mean that you will collect the insurance money and keep it- giving the buyer no recompense?

I have only once dealt with somebody who was unsure about cross border shipping. As it was $80 we each agreed to half- if anything happened I would get $40 back. As it was cheap, fixed blades, and I have never had a package go missing ( good feedback and good posts outsideof the exchange made me feel better).
One other shipment I had 3/4 knives show up in the box. Because the box was sealed and I was missing a knife the other member offered me another selection from his trade/sale threads- and even sent 2 knives back to me as a result. I don't know if he ever got insurance back for it- I did my part for the postal workers and he never followed up with me.

To me:" buyer accepts all risk" is much different than "I will work with you to find out what happened with your package if it gets lost in shipping, but I will not be responsible for refunds if lost.". Personally I feel that not refunding their money is against BF policy, and do not understand how people are allowed to say "I will keep your money if your package goes missing.

Perhaps a mod or sellers could help me to clarify what that phrasing means when they post it, and if such a phrase is in line with BF policy. If there is more clarity I may be able to deal with new people, otherwise I will buy from those who will trust my history and mail service.

Thank you for any responses.

 

[ooitzoo]

I have a statement similar to the one above in all of my sale/trade threads. The reason for it is I cannot be responsible for another countries policies/customs. That said, I always provide a tracking number of some sort (or proof that the item was sent in some capacity).

As far as sending an empty box goes, that's pretty silly as nothing stops someone from sending you an empty box without the statement above. Think about it, if someone wants to defraud you (by not sending promised goods or sending an empty box) they will make it as easy as possible for you to send your end. A thief wants your money/goods and will damn near do anything in his power to get it without tipping you off. Why go thru the trouble of setting hurdles if you're not planning on sending your end?

Trading and selling on the forums requires a bit of trust. If you think that folks are going to send you an empty box then the exchange area probably isn't for you.

EDIT: just one thing I want to be clear on, the statement above does not absolve the seller/trader who is using from responsibility for the quality/description of his item. It absolutely does NOT mean "screw you, I will send or not send whatever I want/whenever I want". It simply means "I cannot be responsible for your item getting there". If it does all other rules apply.

 

[Mtell1]

I live in Canada, a lot of US sellers just dont want to ship international, not worth the potential headaches - way easier to ship within the US if its a common item and easy to find a buyer for like an $80 knife or something. No customs, its faster, cheaper to ship, easier to track, etc.

If I was in the US I probably wouldn't want to ship to Canada either, having such a huge US market.

Once it ships, its yours - you have to assume risk if custom keeps it, or it gets lost, or takes 5 weeks to arrive, etc...some guys just sell that way.

 

[u812]

I have to be honest.Shipping a knife to Canada scares me.I have done it several times.It takes a long time to get there.I did sell someone 2 knives that got taken by customs.He went to the customs office,proved they were legal and they still would not release them and the only way they would send them back was for him to pay for some kind of high dollar secure shipping.

 

[Steven65]

I have received hundreds of knives from all over the world so may I say this?...................

If, as a buyer, you choose to have a knife shipped Internationally WITHOUT insurance and tracking using a service such as Priority Mail International then you should not complain when the package goes missing.
The seller should only accept responsibility when the package is sent WITH an insured and tracked service such as Express Mail International and the package is insured for the FULL DECLARED VALUE.
If the buyers tries to dodge local VAT/Duty charges buy asking the seller to declare a lower value, and then if the package goes missing, the buyer should not complain when there is an insurance shortfall.

If a seller sends a package Internationally, using a fully insured and tracked service with the full value declared, and the package goes missing, the seller must act to recover the costs on behalf of the buyer. And when the insurance pays out he must refund the buyer.
It is unfair to make a buyer pay for insured tracked shipping and then not refund him if the package goes astray and insurance pays out.

If a buyer purchases something that he/she knows could be seized by customs or held indefinitely then the buyer must accept responsibility if the package/knife is confiscated/held by customs.
US sellers cannot be expected to know all the local customs laws of every country they ship to.
As an international buyer it is my responsibility to check my local customs regulations/restrictions.

I often ask sellers to ship me low value items (below $200) using Priority mail International and I accept responsibility if the package goes astray.
Of the literally hundreds of packages I have received this way only one has gone missing. I did not cry about it.......it was my choice.

Lastly let me say this.........

If a buyer asks for and pays for a fully insured and tracked service and the seller chooses to ship using a cheaper uninsured service and package goes missing, the seller is fully responsible for refunding the buyer completely.
I have had instances where I paid for a faster insured, tracked service only to have my package sent regular airmail with the seller pocketing the additional monies. To me this is nothing short of theft.

The above is just my opinion and after years of International transactions, how I choose to interpret the rules.

 

[peter r]

its for the heartless and petty.

i always assume responsibility for the things i sell. ill ensure it just because of the headaches it saves. sellers who say its at buyers risk are trying to justify hundreds of dollars of potential loss for a few more dollars in shipping. and if an item gets lost dont tell me they feel no remorse for the person affected.

it should be a sticky rule in the exchange.

"seller assumes all responsibility until package is delivered."

this way, problem solved no more problems ever. they only have to add like 3-5$ to the price of a knife to cover insurance.

but most people are stand up guys and gals and will figure things out amicably but that one time it doesnt work out..........you wont remember any of the positive encounters.

 

[pwet]

thanks peter, i'd gladly buy you a knife as some of yours look really great


fully insured of course, i've learned a lesson with the thread that made this one pop out.

 

[TechExec]

its for the heartless and petty.

i always assume responsibility for the things i sell. ill ensure it just because of the headaches it saves. sellers who say its at buyers risk are trying to justify hundreds of dollars of potential loss for a few more dollars in shipping. and if an item gets lost dont tell me they feel no remorse for the person affected.

it should be a sticky rule in the exchange.

"seller assumes all responsibility until package is delivered."

this way, problem solved no more problems ever. they only have to add like 3-5$ to the price of a knife to cover insurance.

but most people are stand up guys and gals and will figure things out amicably but that one time it doesnt work out..........you wont remember any of the positive encounters.

Well said. I agree 100%.:thumbup:

 

[lostzebrastripes]

Insurance isn't always an available option when shipping internationally, in my experience.
I've been told it has to do with the country it's being shipped to.

 

[ooitzoo]

its for the heartless and petty.

i always assume responsibility for the things i sell. ill ensure it just because of the headaches it saves. sellers who say its at buyers risk are trying to justify hundreds of dollars of potential loss for a few more dollars in shipping. and if an item gets lost dont tell me they feel no remorse for the person affected.

it should be a sticky rule in the exchange.

"seller assumes all responsibility until package is delivered."

this way, problem solved no more problems ever. they only have to add like 3-5$ to the price of a knife to cover insurance.

but most people are stand up guys and gals and will figure things out amicably but that one time it doesnt work out..........you wont remember any of the positive encounters.

Wow, harsh comments. How is it a problem if both sides are up front about their respective responsibilities?

 

[peter r]

read the whole post. its not harsh at all.

were not worried about the people who are up front and responsible. they never cause problems anyway.

 

[jaxs]

its for the heartless and petty.

i always assume responsibility for the things i sell. ill ensure it just because of the headaches it saves. sellers who say its at buyers risk are trying to justify hundreds of dollars of potential loss for a few more dollars in shipping. and if an item gets lost dont tell me they feel no remorse for the person affected.

it should be a sticky rule in the exchange.

"seller assumes all responsibility until package is delivered."

this way, problem solved no more problems ever. they only have to add like 3-5$ to the price of a knife to cover insurance.

but most people are stand up guys and gals and will figure things out amicably but that one time it doesnt work out..........you wont remember any of the positive encounters.

Thanks for the post (and great business ethic) Peter!

I totally agree that risk of customs seizing a knife should be on buyer (who should know and understand local laws before buying). What I don't get is why the buyer still assumes risk for lost other than customs seizure when insurance has been purchased.

When an item gets lost by USPS (for example), why would there be a distinction between whether the item was being sent overseas or locally? The seller would simply make a claim for an item sent overseas just as they would for an item sent locally?

 

[ooitzoo]

read the whole post. its not harsh at all.

were not worried about the people who are up front and responsible. they never cause problems anyway.

I did, it still reads pretty harsh to me. I use the "buyers responsibility" language for international buyers ONLY. I do this because I want no responsibility for customs in wherever taking the knife. I don't think this is unreasonable if spelled out for the buyer in advance. I also don't see how that makes me petty or heartless. If a buyer doesn't want to do business with me based on this rule then fine; I am willing to accept some loss of sales as a result.

 

[Thomas Linton]

In the U.S. in a sale of personal property, title passes at the point of delivery unless the parties agree otherwise.
If a seller insists on risk of loss passing on shipping, the buyer's choice is to agree or look elsewhere.
If, by agreement, risk of loss passes on shipping, the buyer faces the same choice he or she faces any risk: to insure or not insure.

However, I thought USPS insurance named the shipper as the beneficiary, not the addressee.

 

[coyotebc]

Thanks for the post (and great business ethic) Peter!

I totally agree that risk of customs seizing a knife should be on buyer (who should know and understand local laws before buying). What I don't get is why the buyer still assumes risk for lost other than customs seizure when insurance has been purchased.

When an item gets lost by USPS (for example), why would there be a distinction between whether the item was being sent overseas or locally? The seller would simply make a claim for an item sent overseas just as they would for an item sent locally?

Or if the seller doesn't package it correctly, or a million other reasons.
Fair is fair regardless of where you live

 

[jaxs]

However, I thought USPS insurance named the shipper as the beneficiary, not the addressee.

That's correct, and also the issue - if an item was lost (other than due to customs seizure) or damaged, a claim (where insurance was purchased) has to be lodged by the shipper and any monies paid out will be to the shipper.

 

[Ed T]

Roughly translated, it means, "do not deal with me."

 

[Crown.n7]

I have received hundreds of knives from all over the world so may I say this?...................

If, as a buyer, you choose to have a knife shipped Internationally WITHOUT insurance and tracking using a service such as Priority Mail International then you should not complain when the package goes missing.
The seller should only accept responsibility when the package is sent WITH an insured and tracked service such as Express Mail International and the package is insured for the FULL DECLARED VALUE.
If the buyers tries to dodge local VAT/Duty charges buy asking the seller to declare a lower value, and then if the package goes missing, the buyer should not complain when there is an insurance shortfall.

If a seller sends a package Internationally, using a fully insured and tracked service with the full value declared, and the package goes missing, the seller must act to recover the costs on behalf of the buyer. And when the insurance pays out he must refund the buyer.
It is unfair to make a buyer pay for insured tracked shipping and then not refund him if the package goes astray and insurance pays out.

If a buyer purchases something that he/she knows could be seized by customs or held indefinitely then the buyer must accept responsibility if the package/knife is confiscated/held by customs.
US sellers cannot be expected to know all the local customs laws of every country they ship to.
As an international buyer it is my responsibility to check my local customs regulations/restrictions.

I often ask sellers to ship me low value items (below $200) using Priority mail International and I accept responsibility if the package goes astray.
Of the literally hundreds of packages I have received this way only one has gone missing. I did not cry about it.......it was my choice.

Lastly let me say this.........

If a buyer asks for and pays for a fully insured and tracked service and the seller chooses to ship using a cheaper uninsured service and package goes missing, the seller is fully responsible for refunding the buyer completely.
I have had instances where I paid for a faster insured, tracked service only to have my package sent regular airmail with the seller pocketing the additional monies. To me this is nothing short of theft.

The above is just my opinion and after years of International transactions, how I choose to interpret the rules.

Couldn't explain it any better myself. Well done!

 

[peter r]

not heartless. i may have used my words to grab attention there. im saying that you shouldnt have to worry if a package goes missing because you would have bought insurance. so essentially the risk is gone and doesnt have to be placed on either the buyer or seller. the knife arrives- it arrives and everyone is happy. if it doesnt insurance pays out and everyone is happy.

basicly the distinction is that if things were not properly organized by the people involved, the seller (the one who has the power of decision at the post office) should be responsible for a failed transaction. whether it really is the responsibility of the seller or buyer, its debateable. but at least if there is one of the partys officially slated as responsible, then the blame is easily avoided (hence the sticky idea).

since were all buyers one day and sellers the next. wed all get our turn to be vigilant and plan in advance, or sit back in anticipation and stalk the postman.

I did, it still reads pretty harsh to me. I use the "buyers responsibility" language for international buyers ONLY. I do this because I want no responsibility for customs in wherever taking the knife. I don't think this is unreasonable if spelled out for the buyer in advance. I also don't see how that makes me petty or heartless. If a buyer doesn't want to do business with me based on this rule then fine; I am willing to accept some loss of sales as a result.

 

[Steven65]

Insurance isn't always an available option when shipping internationally, in my experience.
I've been told it has to do with the country it's being shipped to.

If I were a US seller and was asked to ship an expensive knife to a country where insurance was not available I would decline the transaction.

If the international buyer pays with Paypal and the package goes missing or is damaged, The buyer could open a Paypal dispute and the seller, without insurance, will quickly find themselves out of pocket. This is unfair on the seller.

International transaction need not be risky or complicated provided a proper, honest protocol is followed.