What does "at the buyers risk" really mean?

[u812]

+1 for this

You kind of have to take into account that the sender has to go in the PO,stand in line and fill out a customs tag.
No electronic shipping label on these like you can do for US shipping.
To me it does not matter that much as I have a small town PO with hardly ever a line.I have shipped from the PO in Knoxville a few times and every time I had to wait in line anywhere from 15 min to over an hour.

 

[ooitzoo]

Looks like i found something interesting in the sticky's above. Guess not everyone read it (or simply read the OP and moved along).

From http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php/744662-***-Mailing-Security?p=8339179#post8339179

What if there were no hypothetical questions?



Yes, if two people agree to certain specific terms -- including an explicit written agreement not to hold the other responsible for loss in transit -- that takes precedence over generally accepted good procedure.

Bold added by me.

 

[dericdesmond]

I'm sure any reasonable seller who receives the insurance money will forward that onto the buyer, otherwise they'd be receiving twice the amount of money.

As a seller, Id never even consider it, mainly because I typically use paypal. If I sold something and needed to file an Insurance claim, Id refund the buyer via paypal (they could file a dispute anyway and win If I didnt get a service with a signature)then Id collect from USPS when it comes time. SInce the Insurance is for the seller, the buyer shouldnt have to wait until the Insurance is issued, atleast I wouldnt make someone wait, not everyone has extra cash layin around though so it can be a tough call.

 

[Damn_Animal]

Threads like this one and others have a tendency to turn me off to shipping to members overseas. It is a terribly stressfull ordeal without this kind of response from the community. Recently acted as a go between for an Aussie so he could get a knife that the company was refusing to ship internationaly. We agreed that he would pay for it and I would ship it over to him. The whole stinking time i was sick to my stomach till i got an email from him saying the blade had arrived. This was with the understanding that if something went wrong I was not responsible.

Now add in the fact that I will be held responsable for acts beyond my control it makes me want to crack down and not ship international period.

Also from my understanding of Bladeforums rules, as long as the two members agree to a deal it is acceptable. So if both members agree to the once it has left my hands its not my responsability that is the agreement reached and as such is good to go.

 

[hardheart]

All that trying to hang delivery responsibility on the buyer is a load of crap. It's not the buyer's responsibility it's the sellers, like it or not.

Funny, I thought the shipping company had the responsibility of delivering the goods.

Question - does everyone get insurance for everything they order on the internet? I usually take the free option if its available.

 

[jill jackson]

Funny, I thought the shipping company had the responsibility of delivering the goods.

Question - does everyone get insurance for everything they order on the internet? I usually take the free option if its available.

The shipping company will not have the responsibility without purchasing insurance, at least if they lose it too bad and if they do lose it and the seller bought insurance, then the seller will file and collect. So, it is the seller's responsibility to deal with it, when it's an issue.

And yes I use insurance when I ship anything much over 50 dollars.

 

[Peregrin]

Wow allot of controversy going on here. Personally most of my sales are marked "Con USA only". I have shipped overseas on more than one occasion and so far it's been ok, but I only do it if my risk is minimal, I'm comfortable with the buyer (feedback etc.) and I worry about it until I hear from the buyer that he has received it.

Shipping overseas is a major inconvenience though. If I'm shipping from home I pay via USPS.com, print a label, schecule a pickup and that's it. No customs forms, no declarations, no lines, no google searches to see how an address is labled (some countries are allot different then the US).

I honestly feel that whatever the terms of sale are, between the seller and buyer, that should be the end of it. Assuming the terms break no laws.

 

[jaxs]

Originally Posted by jaxs
"If risk includes everything and seller bears no responsibility whatsoever, then what is the point of getting insurance when insurance has to be claimed by and is paid to seller?"

I'm sure any reasonable seller who receives the insurance money will forward that onto the buyer, otherwise they'd be receiving twice the amount of money. ooitzoo is a first class member with which I've had many great transactions and I don't see a single thing wrong with his point of view. There are plenty of knife dealers that will ship overseas, but it's gonna cost you a lot more.

The point I'm trying to make is, the international buyer is counting on the seller to be reasonable, act to claim insurance and forward the insurance money. And terms such as 'at buyer's risk' imply that when something goes wrong, the buyer's on their own, due to seller having nothing to do with the transaction once it leaves the US.

Not saying that ooitzoo is not a first rate member, and I'm certain the overwhelming majority here possess and display integrity in their dealings.
I'm just trying to provide the position of international buyers, when faced with terms such as 'at buyer's risk'..

 

[ooitzoo]

The point I'm trying to make is, the international buyer is counting on the seller to be reasonable, act to claim insurance and forward the insurance money. And terms such as 'at buyer's risk' imply that when something goes wrong, the buyer's on their own, due to seller having nothing to do with the transaction once it leaves the US.

Not saying that ooitzoo is not a first rate member, and I'm certain the overwhelming majority here possess and display integrity in their dealings.
I'm just trying to provide the position of international buyers, when faced with terms such as 'at buyer's risk'..

Dude, you've got no feedback which makes me think you've done no trades on this forum. If someone says "the only way that I will do this deal is if you take the delivery risk" you have the option of calling the deal off. It's pretty clear you don't have a good understanding of the rules and how deals work on these forums. No one has yet to answer my proposition earlier: would you prefer to buy/trade with the "at buyers risk" language OR simply have folks unwilling to ship internationally?

 

[jaxs]

Dude, you've got no feedback which makes me think you've done no trades on this forum. If someone says "the only way that I will do this deal is if you take the delivery risk" you have the option of calling the deal off. It's pretty clear you don't have a good understanding of the rules and how deals work on these forums. No one has yet to answer my proposition earlier: would you prefer to buy/trade with the "at buyers risk" language OR simply have folks unwilling to ship internationally?

I've done no trades, but have made a few purchases. And I'm thankful to those who have been willing to ship their items to Australia, with all the added hassle.

What others and I are suggesting, is that it can be a win/win situation. Where both the buyer and seller understand where they stand and are assured that should there be a problem in a transaction, both parties know what their responsibilities are.

No kidding international buyers would rather be able to purchase what they want here, with the added risk, than not being able to purchase at all. But it doesn't have to be framed in an 'either or' scenario...

 

[wizzard1717]

How about this....

Seller is responsible for completed delivery to customer when insurance and tracking have been purchased, except on customs seizures because.... 1st, buyer should be responsible to know what is legal in their country. 2nd, seller should not have to worry about other countries laws.

Seller is responsible to refund buyer without waiting for USPS to refund seller as long as insurance and tracking was purchased. Should not matter if the package is lost in the other country. USPS insurance is still active. (as long as it is available for that country)

Buyer takes full resposiblity if the package is lost when no insurance and tracking was purchased, but seller must be able to prove that it was at least placed in the mail stream by an "acceptance scan" eg. 1st class international or sm flat rate box international and also provide the customs number. (Just so the buyer can be assured the seller actually mailed it).

If buyer requests the item to have a "lower value" and seller agrees, buyer is only entitled to that "value" of refund when insurance and tracking is purchased if item is lost.

As far as custom seizures.... if the package goes into the country's customs but does not come out and passed on to the mail system, it is an indication of a seizure. The seller can follow this with the tracking system.

I'm sure I missed a few more things, but this would make me happy

 

[ssblood]

Thankfully the knives I have shipped overseas the buyer was well aware of what they were requesting and how it would be handeled. I shipped a knife to Thailand and at the buyers requesting labeled it camping tool and value at 35 dollars. He wanted just priority international which can't be insured and he made sure to tell me my responsibity ended when it showed it had been scanned at the post office.

I'll ship however a buyer wants. If he wants UPS international air and full insurance I'll be happy to ship it that way at his cost and if something happens I'll take care of it.

A reasonable person can not expect the seller to absorb the loss because they only wanted to pay for priority flat rate international. That's just silly.

 

[Tengster]

USPS website allows one to print the custom form plus the shipping label together in one piece at your cost home. The website also specific exact cost of shipping. Pay online is cheaper too.

Shipping overseas is a major inconvenience though. If I'm shipping from home I pay via USPS.com, print a label, schecule a pickup and that's it. No customs forms, no declarations, no lines, no google searches to see how an address is labled (some countries are allot different then the US).

I honestly feel that whatever the terms of sale are, between the seller and buyer, that should be the end of it. Assuming the terms break no laws.

 

[Tengster]

Big +1 for this input. I normally work very well with seller. I will ship first class, priority international mail flat box and also express mail international....all depending on the value of the shipment. Whenever, it is not insurable, I assume the risk. If can, I will insure them accordingly at my cost. But will need seller cooperation to make the claim like what dericdesmond mentioned in his thread.

I'll ship however a buyer wants. If he wants UPS international air and full insurance I'll be happy to ship it that way at his cost and if something happens I'll take care of it.

A reasonable person can not expect the seller to absorb the loss because they only wanted to pay for priority flat rate international. That's just silly.

 

[Steven65]

Thankfully the knives I have shipped overseas the buyer was well aware of what they were requesting and how it would be handeled. I shipped a knife to Thailand and at the buyers requesting labeled it camping tool and value at 35 dollars. He wanted just priority international which can't be insured and he made sure to tell me my responsibity ended when it showed it had been scanned at the post office.
I'll ship however a buyer wants. If he wants UPS international air and full insurance I'll be happy to ship it that way at his cost and if something happens I'll take care of it.
A reasonable person can not expect the seller to absorb the loss because they only wanted to pay for priority flat rate international. That's just silly.

Just remember one thing with International Transactions.......If you get paid with regular PayPal and you ship a $300-00 knife out Priority Mail labeled as a camping tool and valued at $35-00, and it gets stopped and seized by customs or it goes missing. All the buyer has to do is open a PP claim and you are out $300-00!

If your customer chooses that method of transport and value he/she must pay you with PayPal Personal or a wire transfer in full! Otherwise sooner or later you will have a problem with no recourse.

 

[Tengster]

The buyer must assume risk of losing 265 if he wants the seller to lower the value.

 

[supratentorial]

What does "at the buyers risk" really mean?

If paid by PayPal, gentlemen's agreements mean nothing. PayPal goes only by tracking. If tracking doesn't show delivery, a PayPal claim will go to the buyer. gentlemen's agreements only work with gentlemen.

Just remember one thing with International Transactions.......If you get paid with regular PayPal and you ship a $300-00 knife out Priority Mail labeled as a camping tool and valued at $35-00, and it gets stopped and seized by customs or it goes missing. All the buyer has to do is open a PP claim and you are out $300-00!

If your customer chooses that method of transport and value he/she must pay you with PayPal Personal or a wire transfer in full! Otherwise sooner or later you will have a problem with no recourse.

I've had that happen to me (although not on Bladeforums). Actually, the buyer left positive feedback raving about the knife and the quick shipping. But I guess he saw an opportunity since the tracking showed the knife stuck in customs. I was out both the knife and $100.

I've adopted a policy of only shipping internationally in the Exchange when the buyer is someone that I know from discussions on Bladeforums.

 

[powernoodle]

The bottom line for me is that the parties should be free - and currently are free - to agree to just about anything as it relates to the risk of loss. And thats the way it should be. If a seller wants to insure an item, thats fine. If he wants to place that burden on the buyer, thats fine too. The buyer can purchase the item or not, depending on whether he is willing to accept the risk of loss.

Problems never arise when the parties agree in advance what the ground rules are. Problems arise when the parties have not discussed who is responsible for the risk of loss. So if Brother Spark et al. were going to implement a new rule about the risk of loss, it should merely be that the sales post states whether the buyer or seller bears the risk of loss. Then the parties can agree to whatever they care to agree to. Forcing every seller to stand in line at the post office and purchase insurance would go to far.

As with so many interpersonal issues, clear communication before problems arise is the key to avoiding them.

 

[pwet]

that's fine in theory, not in my recent experience. there are time when you clearly agree on the term before paying and you get nothing when the knife is lost.... that's what rules are for.

 

[CUTS LIKE A KRIS]

I've adopted a policy of only shipping internationally in the Exchange when the buyer is someone that I know from discussions on Bladeforums.

I make it a policy to look at the posts from any member that I am wanting to start business with, to get a general sense of their character when money and product are not involved.

Glad to see good healthy debate and opinions are being brought forward.