What does "at the buyers risk" really mean?

I shipped a $850 knife to switzerland yesterday via USPS Express but was only allowed to Insure it for $650, that stunk.
 
Thomas Linton said:
In the U.S. in a sale of personal property, title passes at the point of delivery unless the parties agree otherwise.
If a seller insists on risk of loss passing on shipping, the buyer's choice is to agree or look elsewhere.
If, by agreement, risk of loss passes on shipping, the buyer faces the same choice he or she faces any risk: to insure or not insure.

However, I thought USPS insurance named the shipper as the beneficiary, not the addressee.
Click to expand...

A very reputable coin dealer I used told me that the PO is a bear to deal with when a shipment is lost. They apparently make it difficult to successfully get paid and he does not insure via them any more.

He sends shipments valued over $2k by the USPS chain of custody method, which is slower but secure.

Are there any good data on loss rates by USPS, UPS, and FedX?
 
peter r said:
not heartless. i may have used my words to grab attention there. im saying that you shouldnt have to worry if a package goes missing because you would have bought insurance. so essentially the risk is gone and doesnt have to be placed on either the buyer or seller. the knife arrives- it arrives and everyone is happy. if it doesnt insurance pays out and everyone is happy.

basicly the distinction is that if things were not properly organized by the people involved, the seller (the one who has the power of decision at the post office) should be responsible for a failed transaction. whether it really is the responsibility of the seller or buyer, its debateable. but at least if there is one of the partys officially slated as responsible, then the blame is easily avoided (hence the sticky idea).

since were all buyers one day and sellers the next. wed all get our turn to be vigilant and plan in advance, or sit back in anticipation and stalk the postman.
Click to expand...

That's either untrue or impractical. Firstly, when I ship internationally it is always at the buyers expense because my shipping prices are for US only. Therefore it makes sense for the buyer to select whichever type of shipping he/she wants. If they want insurance then great, I am happy to provide it. If not, that's fine too.

To be absolutely clear, the "at buyers risk" language is used for packages not making it to the buyer upon leaving the US. I always provide proof that it was sent and has left the US. As far as packaging goes, that is also up to the buyer (since they're selecting he method of shipping.) The seller is still responsible for the contents of the package like the item/condition/etc.
 
ooitzoo said:
That's either untrue or impractical. Firstly, when I ship internationally it is always at the buyers expense because my shipping prices are for US only. Therefore it makes sense for the buyer to select whichever type of shipping he/she wants. If they want insurance then great, I am happy to provide it. If not, that's fine too.
Click to expand...

I have never had a problem paying for shipping, I do not feel the seller should eat that expense. The only thing that irks me, is when a seller offers free shipping in the USA but then charges full shipping rates to International customers. IMO the seller should deduct the difference, and the buyer pays the remaining costs. It just seems like the fair thing to do.
 
What it boils down to is that two parties can agree (contract) to do anything that is legal and not against public policy. That holds true in the context of Bladeforums as well, with the caveat that Spark can restrict the terms of sales in any way he sees fit. In the rare instances when I have sold something on BF, I state that I am not responsible for the package after USPS takes possession. I also offer insurance at added cost. So that buyer can choose one of those options, or choose not to buy from me. I take a picture of the package to prove that I sent it to the right address, and I use delivery confirmation.

I really don't see any basis for complaining about a seller's terms, whatever those terms are, because every potential buyer is free to accept or reject them.

:thumbup:
 
peter r said:
its for the heartless and petty.

i always assume responsibility for the things i sell. ill ensure it just because of the headaches it saves. sellers who say its at buyers risk are trying to justify hundreds of dollars of potential loss for a few more dollars in shipping. and if an item gets lost dont tell me they feel no remorse for the person affected.

it should be a sticky rule in the exchange.

"seller assumes all responsibility until package is delivered."

this way, problem solved no more problems ever. they only have to add like 3-5$ to the price of a knife to cover insurance.

but most people are stand up guys and gals and will figure things out amicably but that one time it doesnt work out..........you wont remember any of the positive encounters.
Click to expand...

That mirrors my stance. If I agree to sell somebody something, it is my responsibility to get it to them. So they either need to get the item or a refund. Anything else is B.S.
 
I don't know the answer to this, but doesn't insurance require the addressee to sign for the package? Thats a royal pain for some buyers, who are at work during the day or have other circumstances which make it difficult or impossible to provide a signature. If a buyer wants to do that, thats groovy. But many buyers would rather have the package waiting for them in the mailbox after work instead of receiving a note that delivery was unsuccessful. Making insurance optional gives the buyer that choice.

And if I'm wrong that insurance does not require a signture, then nevermind. :)
 
Thank for the dialogue thus far all, and for keeping it civil.

I am still turned off by such phrases as it gives me little hope that due diligence will be followed in trying to rectify the situation. So I shall do as I have before and largely say "too bad" if there is a deal that looks good.

But I will always feel that "the buyer either gets the product or full refund" should be a BF rule, and I shall operate under those assumptions in my own dealing. So far I've had good luck with people choosing to deal with me, and I hope others will continue to do so in the future.

Kris
 
powernoodle said:
I don't know the answer to this, but doesn't insurance require the addressee to sign for the package? Thats a royal pain for some buyers, who are at work during the day or have other circumstances which make it difficult or impossible to provide a signature. If a buyer wants to do that, thats groovy. But many buyers would rather have the package waiting for them in the mailbox after work instead of receiving a note that delivery was unsuccessful. Making insurance optional gives the buyer that choice.

And if I'm wrong that insurance does not require a signture, then nevermind. :)
Click to expand...


I believe that a signature is required if the amount of insurance is $200 or over.

Tom
 
Once I see that the PO has marked a package as delivered, my obligation for delivery has ended. If it is stolen out of your mailbox, or off your porch, how is that the sellers responsibility? That leaves the "buyer either gets the product or full refund" wide open. I will respectfully have to disagree.
 
tendy said:
I have never had a problem paying for shipping, I do not feel the seller should eat that expense. The only thing that irks me, is when a seller offers free shipping in the USA but then charges full shipping rates to International customers. IMO the seller should deduct the difference, and the buyer pays the remaining costs. It just seems like the fair thing to do.
Click to expand...
You're probably right. The difference we're talking about is generally $5 (the cost of a USPS priority small flat rate box.) Its pretty trivial in the context of a $40 shipping charge for express with tracking/insurance.
 
peter r said:
its for the heartless and petty.

i always assume responsibility for the things i sell. ill ensure it just because of the headaches it saves. sellers who say its at buyers risk are trying to justify hundreds of dollars of potential loss for a few more dollars in shipping. and if an item gets lost dont tell me they feel no remorse for the person affected.

it should be a sticky rule in the exchange.

"seller assumes all responsibility until package is delivered."

this way, problem solved no more problems ever. they only have to add like 3-5$ to the price of a knife to cover insurance.

but most people are stand up guys and gals and will figure things out amicably but that one time it doesnt work out..........you wont remember any of the positive encounters.
Click to expand...

What do you do when the buyer requests that you describe the knife on the customs form as a "camping tool" or "hand tool," with a value of $20 US?
 
What makes me chuckle is people complain about the lack of sellers/traders willing to deal with international members but then want the seller to take full responsability when it is out of their hands because customs has siezed the package....
 
Damn_Animal said:
What makes me chuckle is people complain about the lack of sellers/traders willing to deal with international members but then want the seller to take full responsability when it is out of their hands because customs has siezed the package....
Click to expand...

Customs seizure aside, I'm thinking most international buyers would just want to be treated the same as US buyers - where item is lost/damaged and insurance purchased, seller be prepared to aid and claim for lost/damage item.
 
I've never shipped internationally, but I won't sell a knife without insurance/tracking. It's protection for both parties involved.
 
jaxs said:
Customs seizure aside, I'm thinking most international buyers would just want to be treated the same as US buyers - where item is lost/damaged and insurance purchased, seller be prepared to aid and claim for lost/damage item.
Click to expand...

Damaged good is one thing but how does one differentiate between a "lost" package and one seized by customs. I've never heard of a "seized by customs" tracking message.
 
ooitzoo said:
Damaged good is one thing but how does one differentiate between a "lost" package and one seized by customs. I've never heard of a "seized by customs" tracking message.
Click to expand...

I've never had a package seized by customs, so not sure what tracking message one would get. I would hazard a guess that the carrier (USPS) would be notified as the item would not proceed to the destination. Perhaps someone with experience could enlighten us?

I do know, at least in Australia, seizure by customs is a legal affair. The person in Australia receiving the item would be sent a letter informing of the seizure and possible penalties. And I think it safe to say that in such a case, the distinction between lost and customs seizure could be readily distinguished.
 
As a Canadian buyer I'm often asked to send $US money orders by mail. Maybe there should be a "buyer assumes no responsibility for your money showing up after its' mailed" clause. If I've addressed the envelope properly, and can show that I've in fact mailed it (photographic evidence?), then how can I be held responsible for what Canada Post or the USPS does with it? I suppose I could send the check by courier or certified mail, at the sellers expense of course, to make sure they actually get their payment. Otherwise, I've acted in good faith and purchased the money order, mailed it, and now expect that my goods will be shipped.

It sounds crazy that way, doesn't it??! :D
 
jaxs said:
I've never had a package seized by customs, so not sure what tracking message one would get. I would hazard a guess that the carrier (USPS) would be notified as the item would not proceed to the destination. Perhaps someone with experience could enlighten us?

I do know, at least in Australia, seizure by customs is a legal affair. The person in Australia receiving the item would be sent a letter informing of the seizure and possible penalties. And I think it safe to say that in such a case, the distinction between lost and customs seizure could be readily distinguished.
Click to expand...

I'd hazard a guess that no such message exists. Most likely tracking looks like "left US" and then nothing.

GoodPoint said:
As a Canadian buyer I'm often asked to send $US money orders by mail. Maybe there should be a "buyer assumes no responsibility for your money showing up after its' mailed" clause. If I've addressed the envelope properly, and can show that I've in fact mailed it (photographic evidence?), then how can I be held responsible for what Canada Post or the USPS does with it? I suppose I could send the check by courier or certified mail, at the sellers expense of course, to make sure they actually get their payment. Otherwise, I've acted in good faith and purchased the money order, mailed it, and now expect that my goods will be shipped.

It sounds crazy that way, doesn't it??! :D
Click to expand...

Yes because money orders/checks get stolen ALL THE TIME by greedy USPS personnel

:rolleyes:
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top