what finish to put on edges?

Cliff Stamp said:
Yes, it gets easier to do any cutting test of sharpness as the angle is made more acute and thinner.

-Cliff

Cliff, I used to keep Blue DMT main angle and Red DMT microbevel finishing settings.
Lately I spotted that steels I've in my blades (N690Co, S30V, 154CM) are happier with finer grits as far as corrosion resistance is concerned. I'm using a 20° per side angle with a 3° more microbevel.
Now, I've Green DMT and also 2000grit DMT ceramic. At which stage should I quit to keep some rope cutting performance with such angle settings?

TIA
 
I guess perfection wasn't the right word to use. I don't mean perfection, I just mean I want the neatness that I know I won't be able to achieve on a benchstone.

I don't really know what you mean - what is there to discuss?
 
I have been noticing in the last couple days how much of a variation from newspaper to newspaper there is. On the newsprint I have been using I've been getting out to 1.5" or so on my push cuts, but I noticed when checking out another paper that it felt thicker, so I tried push cutting it. Sure enough, I could go over 3" out and push cut it, and this was only a few hours after checking it out to 1.5" on the newspaper I have at home. While it would probably do my ego good to pick up some of those thicker newspapers, I will keep checking on the newsprint I've been using for consistency. It would be nice if there was a standard newsprint that we could use to test sharpness, so we aren't talking apples and oranges when we compare how good our knives can cut newsprint.
 
I used one of those free classifieds papers, and could only get a hair under 2" out on my sharpest knife. I need to try something like a Barron's, lol.
 
If you are slicing ropes, you lose edge retention very quickly at fine ceramic finises. 1200 DMT is a little better but not much as it is still very fine. You may want to consider just a small section of the edge at the start left with a 600 DMT finish. You can polish the entire bevel and then just add a small micro at 600 DMT.

-Cliff
 
gunmike1 said:
I have been noticing in the last couple days how much of a variation from newspaper to newspaper there is.

One more reason to subscribe to Shotgunners News?

Django606 said:
I don't really know what you mean - what is there to discuss?

Something I do involving an EdgePro Apex outfitted with EZE-Lap diamonds in 250x, 600x, and 1200x grit and the EdgePro tape blanks with 5 micron SiC and 0.3 micron AO abrasives....
 
gunmike1 said:
I have been noticing in the last couple days how much of a variation from newspaper to newspaper there is.

So mabye I am not as terrible a sharpener as I thought!


But then again I probably am :( Oh well, back to the sharpening stone.
 
Cliff Stamp said:
If you are slicing ropes, you lose edge retention very quickly at fine ceramic finises. 1200 DMT is a little better but not much as it is still very fine. You may want to consider just a small section of the edge at the start left with a 600 DMT finish. You can polish the entire bevel and then just add a small micro at 600 DMT.

-Cliff

Uuuh I feel like a dumb now :confused:
I was used to leave the edge more coarse than micro, but the main point is onother one: why extremely polished edge should lose their sharpness very quickly? Just asking.
Practically speaking, than, there is an issue: DMT ceramic whetstone has a lower thickness than Black/Blue/Red/Green. Thus it automatically makes a micro without changing angle settings . But it would be a pain to use it for edge and then use Red for micro (Red should be used at a greater angle setting, and ceramic would not polish the full height of the edge previously created).
When would it be recommended the use of DMT ceramic whetstone?

Last but not least: I tipically use my knives to slice cut meat, nylon bags, liquorice steaks (yellowish wet part), cardboard packages, packages seals, paracord, whittling wood for tindering. From more common use descending.
What would it be your advice for yhis kind of use?

Cheers
 
FlyingMuskrat said:
So mabye I am not as terrible a sharpener as I thought!


But then again I probably am :( Oh well, back to the sharpening stone.

Well, I know I have a long way to go. Like I said previously, my Spyderco R2 push cut over 3" out on my newspaper, it would have done much better on that thick newspaper that my sharpening got 3" out on. I figure I will just keep using the same newsprint so I can get consistent feedback on my performance, and will just have to keep in mind when other people talk about thier newsprint cutting performance that we may be talking apples and oranges.
I guess the best way to get feedback on my push cutting performance would be to get the same type of scale and cord that Cliff uses to test sharpness in his reviews. Cliff, any feedback on a good place to pick those up?
 
gunmike1 said:
... a good place to pick those up?

I used a digital scale with a high precision and recorded the results on a computer. I found that the results were no different than if I used a cheap spring scale which I picked up for $0.50 at a flea market.

daberti said:
why extremely polished edge should lose their sharpness very quickly?

If you are slicing then the cutting ability tends to be proportional to the size of the teeth, just like if you are sawing. The larger teeth not only take much more wear to grind them down to a smooth surface, they tend to be aggresive on multiple levels. With a really coarse finish the teeth actually have smaller teeth on them.

When would it be recommended the use of DMT ceramic whetstone?

You use really high polishes when you are push cutting. As you refine your edges more using steels which can take more acute angles, you will end up moving back towards higher polishes because really thin knives don't tend to slice materials as much as push cut right through them. Most of my EDC knives for example are ground at 5-10 degrees per side and I typically use high polishes. I tend to only use more coarse grits on some of the heavy duty knives which have bevels in the 12-14 degree range because if they are highly polished they don't slice well and with that angle and an edge of >0.030" thick, they don't push cut well anyway.

I tipically use my knives to slice cut meat, nylon bags, liquorice steaks (yellowish wet part), cardboard packages, packages seals, paracord, whittling wood for tindering.

For most general knife profiles, a lot of this type of cutting is best done on a draw/slice and thus benefits from a more coarse finish. However, whittling wood is pretty much all a push cut and thus works best at a very fine finish. Slicing ropes and whittling woods are like dancing and hiking, you either accept the performance in one is going to suck, or get decent, but not great, performance in both. For those kinds of tasks I would tend to carry at least two knives.

But as I noted, if you grind to really fine edges you will be able to go back to high polishes and see optimal performance. This however means a radical departure from the 15-20 degrees edges commonly found on most knives. If your bevels are of that nature then you really need some aggression on the edge (rougher finish) to get good cutting ability and edge retention.

I like the Spyderco medium ceramic and 600 DMT as two general purpose finishes. The 600 DMT is more towards slicing and the medium ceramic more towards push cutting and both are sort of inbetween in that they do nothing exceptionally well or exceptionally bad. They are what I typically finish knives to for example if I don't know the person very well. Then for example if they ask me to sharpen again I just ask them how it worked and adjust accordingly.

So if they say "The knife tended to lose the aggression early." I would back of from the medium ceramic and try 600 DMT. Whereas if they said "It felt a little rough during cutting." I would use the medium ceramic over the 600 DMT. Generally though most people who don't sharpen knives are so impressed by even the worst job you can do it is hard to get critical feedback because the knife easily outclasses anything they have every used even if you pick a really unsuitable grit.

-Cliff
 
Cliff Stamp said:
If you are slicing then the cutting ability tends to be proportional to the size of the teeth, just like if you are sawing. .....................
-Cliff

Pretty clear Cliff, thanks once again. I'm gonna leave the angles as they're, playing a bit between Blue and Red on micro, leaving Blue on the edge. I hope Blue won't bring about corrosion too fast, any thought about this issue?

Cheers
 
Cliff,

Thanks again. Does the Spyderco Medium Ceramic tend to dish, or does it stay pretty flat over time?

John
 
Originally Posted by Django606
Is this the actual test for sharpness - will a truly sharp knife cut the paper, even if it is flimsy?
Cliff Stamp said:
Yes, essentially you are using the tension in the paper to measure the sharpness. Moving significantly out past the point at which it is held is very difficult. For quite some time I had been satisfied if edges would push cut paper at all.
I've found that wax paper - Waxtex brand specifically - is excellent for this. It's very consistent, with no really noticeable grain and tough fiber inclusions like newspaper and recycled products, pretty flimsy and has little weight. And it's cheap to boot. Definitely more challenging to push cut than any newsprint I've used.
 
thombrogan said:
Something I do involving an EdgePro Apex outfitted with EZE-Lap diamonds in 250x, 600x, and 1200x grit and the EdgePro tape blanks with 5 micron SiC and 0.3 micron AO abrasives....

I don't even have an EdgePro yet, so I think I might just get more confused than enlightened :rolleyes:

Thanks for the offer though :)
 
The nicest attributes of newsprint:
- Basically two grades: newsprint (thicker) and adprint (thinner).
- Repeatability: Boston Globe = Philadelphia Enquirer = LA Times = NT times.

The tests:
- Sensory relevant feedback is felt, audible and visual.
- Slow draw-slice over full edge reveals not only sharpness, but reveals any variation in edge quality.
- Push cuts get close to quantitative sharpness, but only for a very local area of the edge.

The problems:
- No sense at all of blade strength or edge-holding (few edges are as sharp as a sharpened burr).
- Great test for envelope-opening abilility - only.

I keep newsprint handy through the edge-development process, but newsprint is useless as an indicator of any edge property beyond relative sharpness.
 
Dog of War said:
I've found that wax paper - Waxtex brand specifically - is excellent for this. It's very consistent, with no really noticeable grain and tough fiber inclusions like newspaper and recycled products, pretty flimsy and has little weight. And it's cheap to boot. Definitely more challenging to push cut than any newsprint I've used.

Good one! I also like old phone books. Each page tends to be pretty similar (at least within the same book), and very thin.
 
gud4u said:
Push cuts get close to quantitative sharpness, but only for a very local area of the edge.

Yes, you tend to need a large amount of isolated cuts to determine blunting because it is so random. I think a better way would be to push lightly into a soft media, the problem is that the thickness of the media turns it into a measure of cutting ability and not sharpness. Ideally maybe push cut through a single sheet of newsprint and see at what force it cuts. However this would be really difficult to do consistently because any angle of the perpendicular could have a dramatic effect on the force.

... but newsprint is useless as an indicator of any edge property beyond relative sharpness.

Fikes shows how you can use it to test cutting ability, you just roll it up into a tube and do dynamic cutting, or just use a lot of sheets and do a press cut.

Dog of War said:
I've found that wax paper - Waxtex brand specifically - is excellent for this. It's very consistent, with no really noticeable grain and tough fiber inclusions like newspaper and recycled products, pretty flimsy and has little weight. And it's cheap to boot. Definitely more challenging to push cut than any newsprint I've used.

That is a great idea. Write them and tell them that and you will likely get a lifetime supply.

John Frankl said:
Does the Spyderco Medium Ceramic tend to dish, or does it stay pretty flat over time?

Ceramics will dish, but really slowly. I think you would wear them smooth long before you would notice a significant dish as they are basically one big block of abrasive. In water/oil stones there is an abrasive and a binder and the abrasive is constantly coming out of the binder.

daberti said:
I hope Blue won't bring about corrosion too fast, any thought about this issue?

Corrosion is really random, I have done lots of soaks on blades and in general you get much more corrosion on the flats than the edge simply because the area is much greater. I have never found it to be a problem. Generally if you would benefit from the cutting ability of coarse edges then this would swamp out anything else in regards to performance unless you are using the blade really infrequently in a highly corrosive enviroment. It might be interesting to compare for example L6/O1 with a variety of finishes cutting onions or similar and see which wins in terms of edge retention, the higher aggression of the lower grits or the high corrosion resistance of the higher polishes.

-Cliff
 
Cliff Stamp said:
Corrosion is really random....

-Cliff

Got it, thanks.
At present time I'm waiting for my Kevin Wilkins F4 S90V+ TiAlN coating ;)
Then I'm planning to test it even at seaside .
 
Cliff, how would you recommend me to remove TiAlN coating on the very edge?
Black or Red DMT?
 
Generally you start off very fine because you can always decrease the grit if the cutting aggression is too low. However if you jump too to low a grit you can't add material back if it came off too quickly. TiAlN is actually a ceramic, if it is fully coated on the edge I would be curious what would happen if you just honed it off one side of the bevel. It might act on the other side to increase edge retention similar to the "rat's tooth" principle where metals of dissimilar wear rates are used to induce self sharpening of digging equipment.

-Cliff
 
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