What Happened to the ZT 0888?

mr_badexample said:
That's not too bad. I bought one at msrp along with a PMR30. Had to buy both was the catch. I only wanted the PMR. Shot the KSG once and just didn't get it. Not for me. I sold it for a $100 more than I paid and everyone was happy. The PMR is outta this world.

As for your knife. I'd venture to guess your willingness to pay premiums for these guns and knives influences your belief that they're worth more than msrp. I understand, been there myself. The problem is it's always a gamble. If the market has stabilized for that model you may have missed the window.
I also think the poster talking about the absence of the KAI forum my be right. At least here on bladeforums. The KAI talk has declined significantly since the forum closed up. Find out where those guys went and you might get your number. Or that big auction site. Good luck.
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Why was the Kai/ZT forum closed? I'm just curious.

As a newb collector (and therefore admittedly part of the demand problem) I would've gladly paid $500 for the 888; I think it's an absolutely gorgeous piece of industrial design. I hope one day I find one for about that price. Maybe even $600, but no more than that. There are so many true customs that feel worthy of that price tag. Paying that much or more for a production, even a limited edition production, feels too speculative.
 
PDXgearboarder said:
Why was the Kai/ZT forum closed? I'm just curious.
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Your best bet for finding out is to go to the archived Kershaw/ZT subforum itself. There is a thread or two in the archives that has that answer. It's also got all kinds of good info on KAI knives, if you ever wanted more information on KAI models.
 
jill jackson said:
I didn't mean they make 300, just they probably sell them for at least that to the dealers. Probably more.
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So you think the dealers make less than $200 on them? 40% margin would be pretty slim for a retailer.

So even if KAI sold them all wholesale for $300; how much of that went into the initial development, engineering, prototyping of the piece? All of those costs are only spread out over 500 pieces. That's before you even factor in the cost of materials, the absolute crap ton of machining that goes into each handle and the pocket clip, the heat treat and everything else.
 
Scurvy092 said:
So you think the dealers make less than $200 on them? 40% margin would be pretty slim for a retailer.

So even if KAI sold them all wholesale for $300; how much of that went into the initial development, engineering, prototyping of the piece? All of those costs are only spread out over 500 pieces. That's before you even factor in the cost of materials, the absolute crap ton of machining that goes into each handle and the pocket clip, the heat treat and everything else.
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I just said they probably make some profit on them, I never said they made a killing and I highly doubt the retailers do get to double their money on those. Maybe cheaper models but probably not the highest end. As it is you don't know and I don't either so we are merely guessing.
 
jill jackson said:
I just said they probably make some profit on them, I never said they made a killing and I highly doubt the retailers do get to double their money on those. Maybe cheaper models but probably not the highest end. As it is you don't know and I don't either so we are merely guessing.
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I'm going off knowledge of retail sales, not knife specific. I can tell you that a 40% margin (it doesn't matter what the price of the item is) in general is pretty slim.
 
I know the dealers don't make even 40 percent on firearms. I know a dealer and for fact they don't get near that.
 
Why do we spend so much time criticizing others for what they do or don't do ? Is it because it makes us feel better about our own mistakes or imperfections ? Why can't we just be happy for people and say , nice knife man, I am so happy you could get that , or , man nice job getting that amount of money on your sale of your knife. Is it jealousy , maybe.
Anyway here is my take on the money making issue. I believe that a lot of these LE's are losses for the companies. Don't you think that KAI benefits from the moral of it's employees when they can say , look what we built and it won knife of the year. When you grind out production pieces day after day you tend to get a little bored, when you can mix in something that poses a bit of a challenge it stirs the blood and builds pride in the company. So when you lose a little on an LE monetarily, but build up your team because you let them work outside the hum drum box, have you not won ? It really isn't hard for me to believe that some companies would do an LE knowing they will not make a profit on it, sometimes there is always a bigger picture.
 
In my opinion, KAI would be happy if they broke even between what each 888 costs to make and what they sell for to retailers. The R&D costs to develop the knife and manufacturing process could be folded into the advertising budget. Think of the buzz created by the KOTY designs of 777, 888, and 454. Then they take some of the easier design elements and incorporate them into cheaper mass market products where they have better profit margins. The latest example being 0777 to 0770.

Both KAI and spyderco seem to understand that these LE or sprint runs isn't as much about profit upfront (if any), but more for brand awareness and buzz generated to draw more people into their other products.

Again, just my opinion as a passive observer.
 
The reason a lot of people don't like it when others get these limited knives is because, the person just turns right around and sells it for a big profit. They think that they'd like to own one and can't because so many do that and the ones desiring the rare knife can't or won't pay the inflated prices. I myself don't care about it, because I can live without if I have to and I like knives as well as anyone.

I don't think any company makes anything for the purpose of not making good money on it. I don't think they do these limited and sprints to draw people into the brand either. In fact I believe it's the other way around and the ones buying them so rabidly, are already fans of the brand. I won't probably ever own a 0888 and I'll survive, but who knows I missed the Tilt and thought the same thing now I have two. Either way there will always be more cool knives down the road to check out and maybe own.
 
Knives like the 0888 are a showcase for KAI/ZT to display their design and manufacturing abilities as well as using new materials, processes and technologies. At a production run of 250 pieces these are not money makers on a standalone basis. All you have to do is inspect one up close to see the spectacular detail. As showcases of the brand they are great marketing items and eventually some of the designs and technologies filters down to their regular production items where the real money lies.
 
People use loss leaders all the time to generate business. There is no way they could make a knife like the triple eight with all the work it takes to get it going, then make 250 and generate a profit from it, it is a much deeper goal that is attained from the production of a piece like this. This discussion has been had so many times and there is never a concise conclusion the bottom line is that it doesn't matter. It is a great knife and a great company, they have my support for nearly thirty years and will for many more God willing.
 
Maybe so, but I think knives are a large profit item to manufacture in a factory. Because there's not a lot to any of them, compared to say a firearm. I have knives that cost more than some of my rifles did and there is much more to the rifles than a small knife, with a very limited amount of moving parts and materials, even the most elaborate knife designs don't come close. Even my 800 dollar bicycle is much more complicated than my folders.
 
jill jackson said:
Maybe so, but I think knives are a large profit item to manufacture in a factory. Because there's not a lot to any of them, compared to say a firearm. I have knives that cost more than some of my rifles did and there is much more to the rifles than a small knife, with a very limited amount of moving parts and materials, even the most elaborate knife designs don't come close. Even my 800 dollar bicycle is much more complicated than my folders.
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A lot comes down to volume of production. They don't expect to sell 500 guns or 500 bikes do they?
 
fzla226 said:
A lot comes down to volume of production. They don't expect to sell 500 guns or 500 bikes do they?
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I'm not talking about just this one model, maybe ZT did lose money or break even on the 0888, I'm talking about production folders that go for comparable money that are made in volume. We probably wouldn't want to know how much those really cost to make.
 
I paid 55 dollars more for the Sebenza, than the Ruger. Which do you think was the most trouble to manufacture?

b6yetz.jpg
 
jill jackson said:
I paid 55 dollars more for the Sebenza, than the Ruger. Which do you think was the most trouble to manufacture?

b6yetz.jpg
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Only one way to know, buy your own manufacturing plant and make a Sabenza, a Ruger and a 0888, anything outside of doing it that way is pure speculation.

I can say this, I've seen a 0888 and the amount of machining that went into making it must be insane, IMO more a work of art than a knife.

I think the total made was between 200 and 250..rare knife anyway you look at it.

The 888MAX is next.
 
ToxicBot11 said:
Only one way to know, buy your own manufacturing plant and make a Sabenza, a Ruger and a 0888, anything outside of doing it that way is pure speculation.
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I'd guess the Ruger is a bit more complicated than the Sebenza, but everyone is right about the low numbers and exclusive design on a show piece like the 0888.

Ruger_SP101_schem.jpg
 
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