What I wish I’d known about knives when I first started buying them.

Him

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Nov 11, 2016
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This is mostly aimed at the folks who are just finding their way into the world of knives and have no idea where to start. Everyone else can disregard.

I’ve had an interest in knives for close to 30 years. Unfortunately having an interest doesn’t necessarily translate into having any usable knowledge, and I ended up spending good money on garbage knives, mostly because I just didn’t know any better. When I first started buying knives my main criteria were what looked cool, and what I could afford. That meant I usually ended up with cheaper import knives that dulled quickly and fell apart after any hard use. I also ended up with knives made from steel that was a poor fit for my needs (for example: I had a slipjoint in 1095 which is a fine steel if maintained well, but poorly suited to bouncing around in my pocket in 90% humidity day after day with no maintenance other than sharpening. Obviously this knife rusted and pitted in short order, not because it was a bad knife, but because it was a bad fit for my needs at the time).

Over the past few years I’ve become more knowledgeable on the topic and so, in an effort to help those who are just starting to explore the world of knives I thought I’d post what I wish I’d known about steels and knives back when I first started exploring the field. Please note that this is my opinion, and others will have different experiences and opinions. Because of that, I always welcome any additions/corrections/comments/other experiences that people have. So if you disagree with what’s written here, by all means please put in your two-cents. That’s the whole point of the thread anyway—to help people get an idea about what to look for, what to consider, and what they can expect from different steels.

So here goes.

A) First, contrary to what many new knife enthusiasts think, there is no overall “best steel.” So forget trying to get "the best knife" out there. It doesn't exist. Different steels are designed for different applications, and there are literally hundreds of steels out there. Individual users have different needs, different budgets, and subject their blade to different stressors. Therefore the optimal steel will vary from one user to the next. Just something to keep in mind. I, for instance, currently own knives in a variety of steels including 440C, VG10, S30V, and S35VN, but my most common EDC for the past 8 years has been in 420HC because that is best suited to my purposes at this time, even though most would consider it inferior to several of my other knives.

B) Second, blade steel is only one part of the equation when it comes to choosing the right knife. Other considerations of equal importance might include: intended application, edge geometry, heat treatment, and ergonomics for that user.
Example 1, intended application: D2 might make an excellent fixed-blade for the backpacker in a dry locale due to its strength, carbide type and distribution, and edge-holding ability, but would make a terrible choice for a dive knife because of its lower chromium content and tendency to corrode when exposed to salt-water and marine air.
Example 2, edge geometry: most users would agree that CPM-154 is generally superior to 440A. But if you sharpen both knives at 20+ degrees per side, you’re not going to see much difference in actual performance, so why would you pay the extra for the more premium steel? The higher-end steel can take a thinner edge, and you only gain the benefit of that steel if you sharpen it accordingly.
Example 3, heat treatment: the stamp on a particular blade doesn’t always mean as much as you think. These days you can get cheap import knives that claim to be made with high-end steels (and maybe they are, who knows?). But if the steel has simply been shaped into a blade in its annealed state, and never properly heat-treated, then it will never perform as intended and that premium steel is useless to you. Heat treatment makes a world of difference. Unfortunately, there is no way to know what heat treatment a particular blade has received unless you’re prepared to do some fairly involved testing (and even that can be inconclusive). That being the case, your best bet is to buy from a maker that has a good reputation for quality heat treatments, and avoid knives from unknown sources where the heat treatment is impossible to verify.
Example 4, ergonomics: A knife may have the perfect steel for your particular usage, be sharpened to the correct angle for your taste, and have an excellent heat treatment, but if the knife fits your hand poorly and gives you blisters then it’s not a good knife for you. Ergonomics is important and often overlooked! I would rather spend time using a knife in 440A that fits my hand, than using a knife in S90V that doesn’t.

C) To understand what makes different steels better or worse for different applications you need to understand basic steel composition. Please note I’m no metallurgist and this is a huge topic that people literally spend their lives studying, but here is a VERY brief cliff-notes version.
In general you want steel that has 1) strength (ability to take stress without deforming) to hold an edge when you cut through hard objects, 2) toughness (ability to take a strike without fracture) so the edge doesn’t chip, 3) corrosion resistance (ability to be exposed to other substances without degradation), and 4) abrasion resistance (ability to withstand repeated wear without losing steel to the abrasive object). The combination of these factors is what gives you an edge that will last through your various cutting tasks.
If the difference between strength and toughness is confusing, consider this: glass is very strong, but not tough. If you put weight on glass, it doesn’t bend much. But tap that weight on the glass and it will shatter. Rubber is not at all strong, but is very tough. If you put a weight on rubber, the rubber flexes and bends. But if you hit the rubber with a weight, it does not shatter or break. A knife needs to be both tough and strong in order to function well. In order to achieve strength and toughness as well as corrosion and abrasion resistance, steel makers add various elements to their steels. Familiarizing yourself with the following will help you assess different steels and the various pros/cons of each.
The following elements are used in different steels and each has its own benefits.
Iron (Fe): substrate material, necessary for all steel.
Carbon (C): primary alloying element, necessary for all steel. Improves strength. Also combines with other elements to form carbides which are critical for abrasion resistance. Carbides are essentially little inclusions in the steel that are very hard. Think of them like pebbles in a concrete freeway. Without the pebbles, the freeway wears down faster. With the pebbles the freeway surface is just slightly rough, but lasts much longer. Carbides provide abrasion resistance for the steel, and also give your edge a very slight “toothiness” that improves cutting performance.
Chromium, (Cr): Alloying element necessary for stainless steel. At least 13% needed to be considered “stainless.” While no steel is truly stainless, the higher the chromium content the more stain/corrosion resistant the steel will be. Imparts slight improvements to strength. Also forms carbides thus improving abrasion resistance. In high quantities decreases toughness (makes blade more brittle).
Molybdenum, (Mo): improves corrosion resistance, strength, and toughness, forms carbides.
Manganese (Mn): improves strength and deoxidizes steel during manufacture. Usually used in combo with Si as their effect together is more potent than either one alone.
Silicon, (Si): improves strength and deoxidizes steel during manufacture. Too much increases brittleness.
Nickel (Ni): improves toughness, may contribute to slight increase in strength.
Tungsten (W): forms strong carbides, thus improving wear resistance
Vanadium (V): forms very strong carbides, thus improving wear resistance. Also refines the grain of the steel, improving overall quality. Present in almost all premium steels.
Nitrogen, (N): Improves strength. Combines with other alloying elements to form nitrides which act similarly to carbides in improving abrasion resistance
Cobalt (Co): imparts strength, especially at high temperatures and allows the steel to be hardened to a stupid-high level.
Niobium (Nb): Improves toughness, strength, and abrasion resistance.
 
D) Having said all of that, here is a quick overview of several common blade steels and some pros/cons. My comments are based on many factors including my own experience, my research into various steel types/compositions, and comments from other users who have tried these steels. As such you should take this with a grain of salt since your experience may be different than mine. I make no claims to being an authoritative source on steel. Also there may be errors and/or things that other users disagree with here. Please feel free to add your own thoughts and experiences so that people can get a more well-rounded view.

420/420J2: Generally regarded as the “wet fart” of steel, this is pretty much bottom rung. Any knife that doesn’t list its steel type other than to say “stainless” is usually 420. Anything that says “surgical steel” is also 420-family. Cons: Low carbon content, extremely poor abrasion resistance, comparatively weak, inferior edge holding. Pros: high stain/corrosion resistance, cheap, easy to sharpen.

420HC: Technically in the 420-family but with 3x the carbon, a little vanadium, and half as much manganese and silicon. Much more abrasion resistance and better edge-holding than 420, but still solidly in the budget-blade category. With a good heat treat this steel is usually sufficient for the average person, and won’t break the bank. Cons: still a relatively low carbon content, sub-par abrasion resistance, inferior edge holding compared to high-end steel. Pros: high stain resistance, fair toughness, cheap, easy to sharpen, has vanadium added.

440A: Superior in pretty much all respects to 420, but still a budget steel. Also has molybdenum which none of the 420 series has. But doesn’t have the vanadium that 420HC has. Useful for dive knives as it’s both cheap and resists salt water well. Cons: low carbon content, sub-par abrasion resistance, inferior edge holding. Pros: highly stain/corrosion resistant, cheap.

AUS-6: competitor to 440A with roughly the same carbon, manganese, and silicon. Has slightly less chromium and no molybdenum, but with vanadium and nickel added in. Japanese budget steel.

GIN-1: Similar composition to 440B, with just slightly less of each alloy element. Not that common anymore, and no reason to ever buy it.

440B: Same as 440A but with more carbon. Thus slightly stronger, but slightly less corrosion resistant. Still the chromium content is more than sufficient. For most applications this would be considered a step up from 440A

AUS-8: competitor to 440B. slightly less chromium, molybdenum, and manganese. Has small amounts of vanadium and nickel added in.

440C: Same general composition as 440A/440B, but with even more carbon. At this level (~1.1% C) we’ve finally reached a carbon level on par with many high-end steels. Like the other 440-steels has molybdenum, manganese, and silicon. 440C has been around for ages and for good reason—it’s a good all-around knife steel. There are many newer and more complicated steels out there, but if you’re looking for a tried-and-true classic with a rock-solid reputation, 440C is hard to beat. I generally consider this the standard by which other steels are judged. Cons: could be more abrasion resistant. Pros: highly stain resistant, good strength, good toughness, cheap.

AUS-10: competitor to 440C. Slightly less chromium, molybdenum, and manganese. Has small amounts of vanadium and nickel added in.

ATS-34/154-CM/CPM154: Similar carbon content to 440C, less chromium, manganese, and silicon, but nearly 5x more molybdenum. Considered a premium steel throughout the 90’s. Still used in many high-end knives. Most would consider this a step up from 440C, but it is slightly less corrosion resistant. Cons: can be expensive. Pros: good strength, toughness, abrasion resistance.

VG-10: Often used in high-end kitchen knives but also seen in folders. Similar carbon content to 440C, with less chromium and manganese, and lacking silicon completely, but significantly more molybdenum. Also has vanadium and cobalt, which 440C lacks. Like ATS-34, most would consider this steel to be one step up from 440C. Cons: more expensive than 440C. Pros: good all-around steel, strength, toughness, abrasion and corrosion resistance all good. Can take a very fine edge.

BG-42: Another steel that I consider to be a step up from 440C and thus to be competing with VG-10 and ATS-34/CPM-154. BG-42 has similar carbon content to 440C, with less chromium, manganese and silicon. Like ATS-34, BG-42 has 4% molybdenum. And is has vanadium at just over 1% which is significantly higher than VG-10. Overall pros and cons similar to VG-10 and ATS-34.

D2: Not technically a stainless steel, since chromium content is only 12%, but it’s close enough to get included on this list. High carbon at 1.5%, reasonable chromium content at 12% molybdenum, manganese, and silicon all at <1%. Vanadium is a standout here at about 1%, roughly the same as BG42. An oldie but a goodie. Cons: corrosion resistance could be better. Pros: strength, toughness, edge holding, ability to take a very acute edge, abrasion resistance.

M390: extremely high carbon at 1.9%, ridiculously high chromium at 20%. Also amazingly high vanadium at 4%. Has all the other usual goodies as well (Mo, W, Mn, Si) in reasonable amounts. Cons: less toughness (more brittle) compared to other steels, can be difficult to sharpen, expensive. Pros: High strength, extremely high abrasion resistance. Good edge holding, good corrosion resistance.

Elmax: the little brother of M390. Just a little less C, Cr, V, and no W. Similar performance to M390 but slightly easier to sharpen, and slightly less abrasion resistance.

ZDP-189: Crazy high carbon at 3%, ridiculously high chromium at 20%. Also has molybdenum, tungsten, manganese, vanadium, and silicon in more expected quantities. Cons: like M390, it can be a little more brittle and harder to sharpen than other steels. Also very expensive. Pros: high abrasion resistance, holds edge well, extremely strong steel.

S30V: Steel developed specifically for knives (which is a rarity). Many makers are selling their high-end blades in S30V. I consider this two steps up from 440C for most applications, though 440C still has it beat by a little bit for corrosion resistance. Contains less chromium, manganese, and silicon than 440C, but more carbon, and molybdenum. S30V also has some tungsten, nitrogen, and amazingly high vanadium at 4%. Cons: expensive. Pros: strength, toughness, abrasion resistance, edge holding, gets you the nod of approval from most steel snobs.

S35VN: The next development after S30V, this one drops the vanadium down to 3% (still crazy high) and adds in niobium, cobalt, and nickel. Slightly tougher than S30V, at the cost of abrasion resistance. Very high-end steel either way. Pros and cons similar to S30V.

S90V: extremely high carbon at 2%. Chromium, tungsten, manganese, and silicon are the same as the previous SxxV steels listed. Half as much molybdenum as the others. But insanely ridiculously high vanadium at 9%. Part of me wonders if this steels is anything besides carbides. Cons: expensive, hard to sharpen. Pros: strength, edge holding, abrasion resistance.

S110V: This is where Crucible industries said “to heck with reality” and decided to make a fantasy magic steel to kill dragons with. 2.8% carbon, 3.5% molybdenum, 9% vanadium, 2% cobalt, and 3.5% niobium. I’m fairly certain that this is what the genie’s lamp is made from, and if you rub it you get three wishes. Cons: you’ll have to sell your body on the streets for a year before you can afford one of these, also you’ll need a lightsaber to sharpen this on. Pros: extreme abrasion resistance, strength, edge holding.

Anyway, that’s a quick and dirty overview of what I wish I’d known when I started buying knives. There is so much more depth and detail to be had, but this’ll get you started.

Also note, there are a ton of steels I did not include on this list. Notably absent are all the Chinese steels or the Sandvik steels. I have nothing against the Chinese steels, and Sandvik steel has a fantastic reputation, but my experience with these steels is limited, so I think at this point someone else would be a better source. If anyone wants to take a stab at it and list some info for other common blade steels, please do so.

Happy slicing/dicing/cutting/whittling/chopping/slashing. And happy thanksgiving!
 
Great overview mate, enjoyable read.
I wouldn't change my Newby phase. Made me appreciate the better stuff when I finally got there.
 
Great overview mate, enjoyable read.
I wouldn't change my Newby phase. Made me appreciate the better stuff when I finally got there.

Enjoyed the read as well. My "newbie" phase lasted almost 25 years before I became educated. I missed a lot!

I think back to the hundreds of animals I field dressed, skinned, and butchered. The prerequisite to any of that was my knife and a sharpener of some type. Those old Bucks, Schrades, Gerbers, et al would not get through a whole deer or hog without needing a touch up on the edge. Work a little, clean, sharpen a little, repeat. Now I have blades that can go through several animals without losing a good working edge. What a difference.
 
Very good summary! What are your thoughts on CPM 3V??
 
Quite impressive for your 1st two posts on the forum!

I don't style myself as expert, but I didn't see much I would pick on in your write-up except that Spyderco is pumping out regular production models in s110v these days for less markup over s30v than I thought was possible. I generally favor less extreme alloys for my uses as well though.
 
I’ve had an interest in knives for close to 30 years. Unfortunately having an interest doesn’t necessarily translate into having any usable knowledge, and I ended up spending good money on garbage knives, mostly because I just didn’t know any better.

I can appreciate this perspective of liking and using knives for years and never really knowing anything about them other than design. You certainly seem to like your stainless steels, but I never had the rusting problem with carbon steels you seem to have had. Hence, I am still pretty comfortable with 1095 and other carbon steels depending on the general purpose of the knife. I like variety which brings the whole knife choice thing full circle owning knives with many kinds of steels for the fun of it, inexpensive to more expensive. Honestly, I have been moving to less "high end" steels more and more as time goes and have been perfectly satisfied. I don't mind sharpening a knife and I don't mind needing to sharpen a knife after skinning a deer. It just seems like a natural thing to do at that point. But I don't like to have to re-sharpen a knife mid way through a skinning activity either. So, I settle on what I consider to be the better carbon steels and mid-range stainless steels which is pretty much what you seem to have settled on, minus the carbon steels.
 
Well you could get a Manix LW in S110V for a decent price&#128521; but great mini-wiki you wrote sir!

Sent from the BatComputer
 
Is "Him" a pseudonym? Can this be only a second post?

What a great write-up. I am definitely going to save this in my favorites. I have read tons of posts on steels, but this is the best summary I have ever seen. Even I can understand what you are saying - well, most of it. Feel free to add to it at your leisure. Thanks.
 
That's about said it all :-)
Nice first post.
Seeing that knife buyers are further divided
Into knife users (as in buying knives for general use thru absolute abuse)
And to the opposite extreme world of collectors (with mild or no actual use).
The appreciation of steel type is more of a technical understanding of performance
For a said steel in terms of edge holding ability and structural flexibility to take on stresses.
Other fixtures to consider in a knife might include the handle/scales.
The worthiness of the material which forms the actual physical connection
between the bladed tool and its user, which completes the inseparable bond.
One might be worn over if it was created in such a way for the worth
Of its beauty or handling durability in providing a good physical grip.
There are may aspects where one might ponder
Or reflect deeply when deciding on the merits of a purchase.
But imho, nothing is more important than that of
A good first impression one gets upon gazing
Or laying eyes on something for the first time.
The first physical touch, would be the fatal trigger
As in during a physical hands on inspection.
At that point a rookie who knows nothing about
The technical aspects surrounding knives
Might throw all heed to the wind.
And will go with what beauty which lies in
A said knife's physical form, fit and finish.
In essence its like falling in love - blindly.
Sometimes its best we learn to live with our choices
And not regret.
We must learn to forgive ourselves
For not having been wiser in past decisions
Especially if they were effectively made through whim or fancy.
It would be unwise to discard what which had made us happy
At some point of life...
Memories are created from the good and bad.
As no one can ever hope to appreciate anything (nor even the best)
If one has never felt the agony (at some point in the future)
of having made a bad decision in the past only because
In life, one must learn through unintentional mistakes.
 
Good read. The learning never stops, and you can always have regrets. Like you I got into knives about 30 years ago. But did not really start learning about quality knives until about 20 years ago. This was thanks to my neighbor and friend who was a forger/knifemaker and I being a mechanical engineer liked learning from him. Even so it was a long learning curve from there that is still going. Glad you finally made it here
 
(snip)

S110V: This is where Crucible industries said “to heck with reality” and decided to make a fantasy magic steel to kill dragons with. 2.8% carbon, 3.5% molybdenum, 9% vanadium, 2% cobalt, and 3.5% niobium. I’m fairly certain that this is what the genie’s lamp is made from, and if you rub it you get three wishes. Cons: you’ll have to sell your body on the streets for a year before you can afford one of these, also you’ll need a lightsaber to sharpen this on. Pros: extreme abrasion resistance, strength, edge holding.

(snip)

Happy slicing/dicing/cutting/whittling/chopping/slashing. And happy thanksgiving!

It always takes longer if they only give you 75 cents each :D .
Excellent post, one of the best on this subject I've read. I am much impressed. Happy Thanksgiving to you, and everyone else on Bladeforums.
 
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Great steel primer.

I'd like to see an addendum with speciality steels like SM-100, Stellite, etc.

Thanks.

Stellite is a cobalt based alloy not a steel. Specifically Stellite 6k. MAde by deloro in Canada. It is denser than steel, 100% corrosion resistant, more wear and heat resistant than any steel, but not as tough as the toughest steels. Weight is a huge negative. The other attributes are positives.
 
If S110V is fantasy dragon-slaying magic genie lamp steel, then what's Maxamet? :p

Welcome to bladeforums, Him. That's a wealth of info there in your first two posts. :thumbup:
 
Thanks Him, I very much enjoyed your write-up. I prefer the ease of care of stainless. I have a few GEC knives in 1095 and think they are very well made, but the concern of them rusting makes me hesitate greatly acquiring more. I wish GEC would produce more 440C knives.

,,,Mike in Canada
 
Really good read. Thank you for this. I'd like to have seen 3v in there but guess I'm just bias ;) overall really good read though
 
Thanks for the read! Wouldn't mind seeing more of your input on other steels as well!
 
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