What I wish I’d known about knives when I first started buying them.

Nicely put, just about sums it all up.

Each steel has a way to heat treat to get the best out of it depending what its intended purpose for use is. Same with what hardness to finish them at. Not every maker gets this right, and when they don't then however sexy the steel in name is it will still be a poor performer.
Most of civilisation was built and still being built with pretty standard tools. Nice to be able to own the very best, but not having it shouldn't stop one from getting on with the job. Plenty of pretty great stuff out there to get it done and it doesn't have to cost an arm and a leg.
Every blade has some luck built into it. Some just have no luck at all, snap the first week or get lost. Others loads and last a lifetime. Buy into reputation and hope the lucks with it.
Lastly, just because someone says its "the best" doesn't mean it is. Do your own research and buy what you like. May well take a few until you find what works for you. Being familiar with a blade goes a long way to how good it is. Price really isn't a good guide if something is going to work for you. The classic simple designs tend to work best rather than anything radical.

S'nuf from me.

Again, really good write up.
 
I am not sure how much more I could disagree with this book...

Understanding knives and steels is something that comes with one thing, and that's use.
Regurgitating other peoples opinion's like the one's you presented here is not the right way to form an understanding on what is a very relative subject.

What makes a good knife or a good steel has less to do with numbers, and more to do with so many things that I am not going to even make that list, but it can include:

Knife: Ergo's/size/weight/price/man I could go for a few pages!
Steel: Heat treat/Geometry/Grind/What do you cut?/and again, man I could go on for a few pages.

It's kinda funny how you started with all of my points above but then went into putting together a very opinionated view of blade steels?
I don't get the contradiction?

Again. The only way to figure all this out for yourself is to use it....
 
JR88FAN said:
I am not sure how much more I could disagree with this book...

Understanding knives and steels is something that comes with one thing, and that's use.
Regurgitating other peoples opinion's like the one's you presented here is not the right way to form an understanding on what is a very relative subject.

What makes a good knife or a good steel has less to do with numbers, and more to do with so many things that I am not going to even make that list, but it can include:

Knife: Ergo's/size/weight/price/man I could go for a few pages!
Steel: Heat treat/Geometry/Grind/What do you cut?/and again, man I could go on for a few pages.

It's kinda funny how you started with all of my points above but then went into putting together a very opinionated view of blade steels?
I don't get the contradiction?

Again. The only way to figure all this out for yourself is to use it....
Click to expand...


Wow...Talk about a killjoy.

As "Him" put:
"My comments are based on many factors including my own experience, my research into various steel types/compositions, and comments from other users who have tried these steels."

I, like a lot of others who have read his post (and commented to say as much) found HIM's post both educational and enjoyable to read.

On the contrary you have replied insinuating that he (HIM) does not have enough experience to express his findings with us, and that he "regurgitated other people's opinions".

What a way to welcome a new member here at BF. I suggest you put your ego down for a minute, read what you have posted against HIM's and if you have anything constructive to say then add it rather than repeating what had already been posted by "HIM"!

As he mentions in his very first paragraph:

"This is mostly aimed at the folks who are just finding their way into the world of knives and have no idea where to start. Everyone else can disregard."

What a joy you must be at parties....
 
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Nice writeup, but if you put a very acute edge on D2, you better put a microbevel on it, it can chip pretty badly when too thin.
 
JR88FAN said:
I am not sure how much more I could disagree with this book...

Understanding knives and steels is something that comes with one thing, and that's use.
Regurgitating other peoples opinion's like the one's you presented here is not the right way to form an understanding on what is a very relative subject.

What makes a good knife or a good steel has less to do with numbers, and more to do with so many things that I am not going to even make that list, but it can include:

Knife: Ergo's/size/weight/price/man I could go for a few pages!
Steel: Heat treat/Geometry/Grind/What do you cut?/and again, man I could go on for a few pages.

It's kinda funny how you started with all of my points above but then went into putting together a very opinionated view of blade steels?
I don't get the contradiction?

Again. The only way to figure all this out for yourself is to use it....
Click to expand...

No-one is stopping you from writing an anti thesis.
In any case, It'll give the rest of us an alternative viewpoint/interpretation on what makes a good knife!
 
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This is actually a pretty good summary. If you're interested in expanding it, some good things to add would be: simple carbon steels, tool steels, the different types of blade grinds and shapes, different folder locking mechanisms, common handle materials.

Nice post.
 
Thanks Him for the contribution. Appreciate the work that required.
Welcome to the forums.
 
Him said:
Example 2, edge geometry: most users would agree that CPM-154 is generally superior to 440A. But if you sharpen both knives at 20+ degrees per side, you’re not going to see much difference in actual performance, so why would you pay the extra for the more premium steel? The higher-end steel can take a thinner edge, and you only gain the benefit of that steel if you sharpen it accordingly.
.
Click to expand...

There is absolutely zero basis to either of the highlighted statements...

Many try to make it look like cutting geometry and steels is a highly "refined science"...: The red flag for this is whenever you hear a sentence along the lines of "The cutting task for which the steel was designed"... Right there you know you are dealing with a goner...

Until some CPMs steels and INFI came along around 1999-2000, there was almost no steels "purpose-designed" for knives... And many of those "purpose designed" steels I consider the worst of them all, and I avoid them like the plague...

The two steels you mention, CPM-154 and 440A, I have tried extensively and they had behaviour completely opposite to what you assume... It's all about the maker and source... I do get a strong impression, from two different CPM steels I have tried, that they are a very bad case of the emperor's clothes... The fact you attribute so much credit to the steel designation shows all this knowledge is second hand and not experience based...


JR88FAN said:
I am not sure how much more I could disagree with this book...

Understanding knives and steels is something that comes with one thing, and that's use.
Regurgitating other peoples opinion's like the one's you presented here is not the right way to form an understanding on what is a very relative subject.
....
Click to expand...

Couldn't have said it better...

The way I work with most blades is I close the edge angle too thin, do some chopping in a variety of wood, observe the small failures, and open the edge angle until I get the failures to stop. CPM steels seemed not to improve in their tendency to do micro-folds, no matter how thick and open the edge angle was, so I gave up on them... I've seen "high end custom maker" 440C crumble like sand, and other cheap factory 440A, and especially Aus-6, being the best there is... In general I trust far more factory steel, especially Japanese factory steel, and I test extensively anything custom because it is just way less reliable...

Just the issue of steel cleanliness can completely change the performance, way beyond whatever designation the steel is called...

Gaston
 
Gaston444 said:
There is absolutely zero basis to either of the highlighted statements...

Many try to make it look like cutting geometry and steels is a highly "refined science"...: The red flag for this is whenever you hear a sentence along the lines of "The cutting task for which the steel was designed"... Right there you know you are dealing with a goner...

Until some CPMs steels and INFI came along around 1999-2000, there was almost no steels "purpose-designed" for knives... And many of those "purpose designed" steels I consider the worst of them all, and I avoid them like the plague...

The two steels you mention, CPM-154 and 440A, I have tried extensively and they had behaviour completely opposite to what you assume... It's all about the maker and source... I do get a strong impression, from two different CPM steels I have tried, that they are a very bad case of the emperor's clothes... The fact you attribute so much credit to the steel designation shows all this knowledge is second hand and not experience based...

Couldn't have said it better...

The way I work with most blades is I close the edge angle too thin, do some chopping in a variety of wood, observe the small failures, and open the edge angle until I get the failures to stop. CPM steels seemed not to improve in their tendency to do micro-folds, no matter how thick and open the edge angle was, so I gave up on them... I've seen "high end custom maker" 440C crumble like sand, and other cheap factory 440A, and especially Aus-6, being the best there is... In general I trust far more factory steel, especially Japanese factory steel, and I test extensively anything custom because it is just way less reliable...

Just the issue of steel cleanliness can completely change the performance, way beyond whatever designation the steel is called...

Gaston
Click to expand...

What steels do you like, and for what purposes? I try reading threads like these and only get confused... I have plenty of knives, mainly in aus8, 440c, and 1095s and I am trying to understand what knives I should buy in the future. So far I have really like most of the knives I own, but I am trying to figure out a good steel for heavy duty camp knife that wont rust, break, or chip. It is really nice to see fellow forum members share knowledge, but with so many different consensus its hard to see whats knowledge and whats opinion...
 
AmericanKraut said:
What steels do you like, and for what purposes? I try reading threads like these and only get confused... I have plenty of knives, mainly in aus8, 440c, and 1095s and I am trying to understand what knives I should buy in the future. So far I have really like most of the knives I own, but I am trying to figure out a good steel for heavy duty camp knife that wont rust, break, or chip. It is really nice to see fellow forum members share knowledge, but with so many different consensus its hard to see whats knowledge and whats opinion...
Click to expand...

Ignore Gaston's nonsense.
 
Gaston444 said:
There is absolutely zero basis to either of the highlighted statements...

Many try to make it look like cutting geometry and steels is a highly "refined science"...: The red flag for this is whenever you hear a sentence along the lines of "The cutting task for which the steel was designed"... Right there you know you are dealing with a goner...

Until some CPMs steels and INFI came along around 1999-2000, there was almost no steels "purpose-designed" for knives... And many of those "purpose designed" steels I consider the worst of them all, and I avoid them like the plague...

The two steels you mention, CPM-154 and 440A, I have tried extensively and they had behaviour completely opposite to what you assume... It's all about the maker and source... I do get a strong impression, from two different CPM steels I have tried, that they are a very bad case of the emperor's clothes... The fact you attribute so much credit to the steel designation shows all this knowledge is second hand and not experience based...




Couldn't have said it better...

The way I work with most blades is I close the edge angle too thin, do some chopping in a variety of wood, observe the small failures, and open the edge angle until I get the failures to stop. CPM steels seemed not to improve in their tendency to do micro-folds, no matter how thick and open the edge angle was, so I gave up on them... I've seen "high end custom maker" 440C crumble like sand, and other cheap factory 440A, and especially Aus-6, being the best there is... In general I trust far more factory steel, especially Japanese factory steel, and I test extensively anything custom because it is just way less reliable...

Just the issue of steel cleanliness can completely change the performance, way beyond whatever designation the steel is called...

Gaston
Click to expand...

Everyone except you seems to come to different conclusions about CPM steels. Do you only judge steel performance by how much they chip in chopping tests?
 
Great read, there's always more to learn here, in between history, engineering, science and art it's impossible to "know it all" (we've had may of those here over the years) Thanks for sharing your thoughts and opinions in a cohesive and intelligent manner.

AmericanKraut said:
What steels do you like, and for what purposes? I try reading threads like these and only get confused... I have plenty of knives, mainly in aus8, 440c, and 1095s and I am trying to understand what knives I should buy in the future. So far I have really like most of the knives I own, but I am trying to figure out a good steel for heavy duty camp knife that wont rust, break, or chip. It is really nice to see fellow forum members share knowledge, but with so many different consensus its hard to see whats knowledge and whats opinion...
Click to expand...

Interested to know the same thing. :)
 
AmericanKraut said:
What steels do you like, and for what purposes? I try reading threads like these and only get confused... I have plenty of knives, mainly in aus8, 440c, and 1095s and I am trying to understand what knives I should buy in the future. So far I have really like most of the knives I own, but I am trying to figure out a good steel for heavy duty camp knife that wont rust, break, or chip. It is really nice to see fellow forum members share knowledge, but with so many different consensus its hard to see whats knowledge and whats opinion...
Click to expand...

My take..... I believe a lot of what Him said is a compilation of information which is really okay as far as I'm concerned as I would never try to position myself as an expert on steels or metals in general used in knives. I likely will never try out a knife in each steel, so if I make statements along the line of Him's summary, it has to be a compilation from other sources. I suspect most of us fall into that category.

Americankraut, your statement about knowledge and opinion pretty much brings the whole discussion full circle and you're back to making a choice.... should I get this or get that steel? Is it worth paying more for this steel over the standard steel used by a manufacturer? How do I make a decision when I have never used a particular steel and you should not be limited to a particular steel from just one manufacturer or maker. How much does grind and design come into play in terms of ease of use, cutting efficiency, and resistance to such things as chipping?

How do you discriminate between fact and fiction? Most can't. A knife looks like it meets your qualifications and perhaps you buy it. You really don't know regardless of what people say or the specs on a particular steel in terms of your use. Add to that more than half the knives I buy never even cut paper, and how exactly can you discriminate at all? A knife might be made with dreaded 440A that you never used.... Just as good in that sense as some wizzbang super steel..... It is all about selling knives. It comes back to being a hobby for most of us, and those that buy a couple knives over a period of 20 years and use them really can't discern fact from fiction even after you buy the knife. It seems to cut and it holds an edge, looks good...

You have to depend on other people's opinions like Him's if your interest even goes that deeply when choosing a knife. Thank goodness BF exists so at least your not limited to the sale's clerk's opinion as you fondle a knife in a store. Him, thanks for your effort.

Him...... I keep thinking of the old James Arness horror movie about the big ants... THEM. It's THEM. :D
 
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I don't make knives, never likely to. I'll do some research to see whats going on with the blade scene and at some point take the jump and hope I get something pretty good. I've forgotten what steel most of my work knives are now other than some are marked. I just take the knife that going to get the work done from the bunch I own. They get sharpened when they need it.

Yes, I have bought into some different steels, some sexy new steels, just because I have a bit of interest in it all and to see where the progress is going. Frankly, its always a leap of faith, and just buying one example is no guarantee that particular knife is the best reflection of the steel. There is so much to it all, so many variables. All the steels can be done badly, all can be done well and be well suited. So much is on the decisions and processes that have been applied by the maker. Its all in the reputation, with rest being some luck.
Heck, most makers buy in steel and trust its been done as stated. They add their expertise and hope it stacks up against the competition. Only good sales keep the standards high and progress advancing. Presently the momentum is there, long may that continue.

Him has in my view done a pretty good job of listing out most of the general findings that circulate. There is some fun in that. What anyone ends up going for is their call. Think there has been some progress so there is more chance of getting something good. Have to start somewhere.
 
Gaston,

"Most users would agree that CPM-154 is generally superior to 440A" for a very good and simple reason. IT IS.

I now only own one knife in 440A and keep it around because of the knife's ergonomics. I dig it out when I'm bored with what's in my pocket or when I start longing for another knife I don't really need. I know that it will require much more frequent sharpening and touch up than any of my other knives. Including those made from 154CM, which most of us consider a slight step down from CPM-154.

I would say that collectively the members here are smarter than any single member. Would you agree? Because of them, I know about more steels, blade geometry and heat treatment. My eyes have been opened to new knife designs and brands to lust after or stay away from. Collectively, the members bring more experience, knowledge and wisdom to the table than any single person could ever offer.

Here is the bottom line, Gaston. Collectively, they normally tell us to RUN, DON'T WALK, RUN, from knives with 440A blade steel. They also normally agree that CPM-154 is a decent blade steel. More importantly, they tell us why.

What have you learned from your membership here at Blade Forums?
 
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sabre cat said:
...Here is the bottom line, Gaston. Collectively, they normally tell us to RUN, DON'T WALK, RUN, from knives with 440A blade steel. They also normally agree that CPM-154 is a decent blade steel. More importantly, they tell us why.
Click to expand...

I agree that 154 CPM is better than 440A. Not a big leap here... But, it is all value based and many like Rough Rider knives which are made using 440A as I recall. SMKW claims that the 440A that they use is actually shipped from the US to China for these knives.
 
First welcome to blade forums glad your here.
When I read your title I had no idea that this was going to be a thread on Blade steel. However it does seem you spent quite a bit of time on your post and that several folks have enjoyed it.

But back to what I wish I had known when I first started buying knives is that it really doesn't matter what others think/believe is superior knife to own. I would have saved a lot of money by just buying what I liked.

As far as blade steel as long as it doesn't roll when sharpening, holds and takes a decent edge I am happy. I appreciate the nostalgia of a slipjoint in 1095 as well as the Elmax used on my Blur. I don't know much about metallurgy but for my use of the hundred or so knives I own they preform just fine.

I guess to sum it up for me the formula used in my blade is something that never flipped my switch like F&F, handle material, how it felt in hand and appearance. As an old man that has been enjoying knives for a long time I have found that whatever makes you happy is the way to go.
 
I have been carrying balis since I was in high school. I was pretty ignorant about knives but blissful.

Now I know a bit more and I'm much less blissful.
 
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