What I wish I’d known about knives when I first started buying them.

A more appropriate title to this thread would be "A beginners guide to steel" or something similar. Not that it's a bad thing, per se, just that there's a lot more to knives than just the type of steel used.

I've been using (not collecting) knives since my first SAK when I was 10. To this day, I worry very little about blade steel when compared to how useful the knife is to me. Yes, I want a decent steel, but quality, ergos, blade style, etc. all matter just as much to me when picking a tool.

You could write pages on just scale materials alone. Or blade shape. Or lock types for folders... You get the idea.

And what about the newbie collector who may never use a majority of the knives he/she plans on purchasing? What makes a certain knife collectible and not another of similar quality or price? What intrinsic value does a maker's name add to a knife? Or how do you determine when an unknown up-and-coming smith has the potential to be a future collect able.


Not ragging on your post at all. But steel is just one part of the equation. It's like telling a newbie to guns all about calibers, but making no mention of revolvers vs. semis, or glossing over frame size and weight.

If I was gonna give a newbie user a bit of advice it would be this:
Whatever you think you want a knife for, be it an EDC folder, a fixed blade for camping, or just to stare at in a display case, spend a little money. Not blow the bank money, but the $40-$60 range will get you into a decent production knife, from a multitude of reputable brands.

If you can, put some in your hand, feel how they balance, how they fit your grip, how they open and close, and even just how the look to your eye. One will eventually just "call" to you. Don't overthink it, because in this price range, you can easily pick up another in a few weeks or months to start comparing what you do or don't like in knives. And chances are, your not gonna get total junk either. After a few of these, then you can start really thinking about spending $100 and up on a knife.
 
Hi and welcome! I have appreciated the reading of this compendium of yours about steels. I found it useful, structured and schematic enough to give a good broad overview. Also funny to read, kudos to you for the time and effort to put the thing together :thumbup:. I also agree that steel is only a part of the equation. I still consider myself a “newbie” in the knives world, though I can say I started to play around with knives since my childhood. I am still not able to distinguish, judging by cutting operations only, if I am cutting with a D2 or a N690, with a S30V or a carbon steel :). I come to realize some differences in steels a bit better only with the use and the maintenance (sharpening, stropping, etc.) of my different blades. Then I start to notice some differences in edge holding, for example, corrosion resistance, toughness, etc. I consider myself as an average user, I probably run 30-50 cuts per day with my folders and maybe more with my few fixed blades, when I take them on the trails and play "bushcrafter" :D. I don’t work with my knives, I’m more on the “play around” side. Someone will probably react on this ;), but I am not ashamed to say that I still don’t find any appreciable difference in cutting performances, in my daily use, between e.g. my G. Sakai back-lock in ATS-34 and my Spyderco PM2 in S30V. I start to notice some minor differences in steel characteristics, maybe under a prolonged use (e.g. week/month long period) and some major ones only in the sharpening.

I think what I’d suggest to someone with no experience at all, coming looking for a knife, would be to try first to define his/her needs. Are you going to use your knife or will it be a show piece of sorts? How are you going to use your knife? Is it mainly EDC assorted “light utility” tasks (food prep, packaging materials, cordages, minor wood working, etc.) ? Is it mainly “medium-heavy duty” (e.g. extensive woodwork, cutting operations at e.g. construction sites, scrapyards, plumbing, roofing, flooring, etc.)? Will you take care of your knife and you want it to last or it’s more a disposable goods approach you’ll have with it? Based on these data, one can be able to rank the importance of the single different knife characteristics, including the steel blade properties, and find the right compromise which works best for him/her. I think price also is but a variable in the equation. Take care!
 
What I'd wish I'd known before I started my knife journey...

is how much of an impact blade geometry has on performance...and that the performance of a knife isn't all hung up in the steel type. I read WAY too many "Which steel is best/better" threads and arguments when I first got into things.
 
There is an App for Android called Knife Steel Composition Chart. Is pretty useful, you can find almost any steel, make comparisons, see the composition, I think is a must have for all knife collectors... You can find it at the Google play store.. it´s free..

Sent from my Nexus 5 using Tapatalk
 
I realized I don't like knifes with edges butting against ricasso. The lack of a minimal choil to allow easy sharpening of the entire blade is a deal breaker for me - most of the custom bushcrafting knives for that matter.
This is something I would have liked to know before buying.
 
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I realized I don't like knifes with edges butting against ricasso. The lack of a minimal choil to allow easy sharpening of the entire blade is a deal breaker for me - most of the custom bushcrafting knives for that matter.
This is something I would have liked to know before buying.

I suspect this is something you could never have known before buying a few knives, handling, and using them regardless of how many posts you read here on BF. There is a lot of personal preference involved.
 
I suspect this is something you could never have known before buying a few knives, handling, and using them regardless of how many posts you read here on BF. There is a lot of personal preference involved.

Yes, but as stated in the title of the topic, is something I would have liked to read about : the functional reasons behind each little thing that is part of the knife design.
 
You have to sort of find your own way regardless. For example, I prefer a sabre grind for a general woods knife where as many here want drop points as the point may be just a tad stronger or the spear point bushlore style. I very much like the old Randall style of knives. I prefer a small guard.
 
You have to sort of find your own way regardless. For example, I prefer a sabre grind for a general woods knife where as many here want drop points as the point may be just a tad stronger or the spear point bushlore style. I very much like the old Randall style of knives. I prefer a small guard.

I am with you on the grind and old Randall knives preference. I find more interesting the discussions touching the design/function than the type of steel, because to buy it you have to like it visually first. I wouldn't buy a knife just because is one of the super steels, but this is me.
Yes, you have to sort it out by yourself, but sometimes just mentioning a thing might get another to start thinking - Columbus' egg syndrome in a twisted way.
 
Everyone except you seems to come to different conclusions about CPM steels. Do you only judge steel performance by how much they chip in chopping tests?

No, by how easily they micro-fold. Chipping did not strike me as typical of these steels...

On S30V micro-folding was so bad (on a 10.5" RJ Martin) I could pick separate spots on the blade, hit those separately 2-3 times each, and the gap in between would have no micro-folds, and the two separate zones would have micro-folds from just hitting a steadied 4" Maple branch 3 times...

CPM154CM was the same. Neither knife was re-ground. In both cases the edge angles were hand-sharpnened to over 15 per side, which I don't consider thin at all...

It could be those steels perform well in abrasion resistance while slicing, but that is only a part of edge-holding. Most knives made in these steels tend to be sub-4" folders, not 10.5" Survival/choppers, so that could explain the difference in perception...

Gaston
 
Gaston,

"Most users would agree that CPM-154 is generally superior to 440A" for a very good and simple reason. IT IS.

I now only own one knife in 440A and keep it around because of the knife's ergonomics. I dig it out when I'm bored with what's in my pocket or when I start longing for another knife I don't really need. I know that it will require much more frequent sharpening and touch up than any of my other knives. Including those made from 154CM, which most of us consider a slight step down from CPM-154.

The fact you attach so much importance to steel type rather than maker/origin is the problem...

440 can range from anything to anything... I have tested dozens of knives in 440, and they were both the absolute best and the absolute worst... Best steels always appear to me to be anything with "Seki City" or "Made in Japan" stamped on them. Seki city Aus-6 (a 440A equivalent, if that) blows away most custom makers I have seen, especially if the custom is a CPM steel....


I would say that collectively the members here are smarter than any single member. Would you agree?? Because of them, I know about more steels, blade geometry and heat treatment. My eyes have been opened to new knife designs and brands to lust after or stay away from. Collectively, the members bring more experience, knowledge and wisdom to the table than any single person could ever offer.

Here is the bottom line, Gaston. Collectively, they normally tell us to RUN, DON'T WALK, RUN, from knives with 440A blade steel. They also normally agree that CPM-154 is a decent blade steel.

In bold is a classic authority argument... You go to a UFO sighting website, and there will be a broad agreement as to what flying saucers look like, what the Aliens look like, and especially an overwhelming agreement that they do exist and have come here.... This broad group-based agreement means absolutely nothing without concrete physical evidence...

How many have experience with CPM 154cm in a large 9.5" fixed blade hollow ground chopper? Not even that many... Aside CPM3V, most CPM steels here are "evaluated" slicing with short folders...



What have you learned from your membership here at Blade Forums?

I've learned to use phonebook papers in edge tests, and to use nails to check the apex for micro-folds, both of which were priceless tips...

I've also learned that a wire edge constantly flip flopping, not breaking off, while sharpening probably means there is something wrong with the steel...: A Taiwan made Cold Steel I had did this, which is why I now always overpay for the old Seki/Japan made ones...

On steel performance, an extremely elusive issue affected by literally infinite variables, it seems to me almost everything discussed here is complete misinformation... I have seen a 1999 magazine test, better done than any other test since, with purpose-built mules only, and 440 absolutely crushed (slicing manila rope, but in most other categories as well) all the others steels including INFI, CPM-3V and even D-2 (though that was the only one that was closer)...

I've also seen an Italian owner pitting a Randall Model 14 in 440B against a Busse Sasquatch of similar edge thickness, chopping a concrete block, and the Randall 440B edge showed almost no damage, much less damage than the Busse, chopping through the cinder block... Not really scientific, but do you still think you want to run away from 440?

Gaston
 
S90V is not hard to sharpen. I sharpen it easily on ceramic sticks. Gets hair popping sharp fast. Ankerson agreed with me on this, so I know it's not just me.
 
The fact you attach so much importance to steel type rather than maker/origin is the problem...

440 can range from anything to anything... I have tested dozens of knives in 440, and they were both the absolute best and the absolute worst... Best steels always appear to me to be anything with "Seki City" or "Made in Japan" stamped on them. Seki city Aus-6 (a 440A equivalent, if that) blows away most custom makers I have seen, especially if the custom is a CPM steel....




In bold is a classic authority argument... You go to a UFO sighting website, and there will be a broad agreement as to what flying saucers look like, what the Aliens look like, and especially an overwhelming agreement that they do exist and have come here.... This broad group-based agreement means absolutely nothing without concrete physical evidence...

How many have experience with CPM 154cm in a large 9.5" fixed blade hollow ground chopper? Not even that many... Aside CPM3V, most CPM steels here are "evaluated" slicing with short folders...





I've learned to use phonebook papers in edge tests, and to use nails to check the apex for micro-folds, both of which were priceless tips...

I've also learned that a wire edge constantly flip flopping, not breaking off, while sharpening probably means there is something wrong with the steel...: A Taiwan made Cold Steel I had did this, which is why I now always overpay for the old Seki/Japan made ones...

On steel performance, an extremely elusive issue affected by literally infinite variables, it seems to me almost everything discussed here is complete misinformation... I have seen a 1999 magazine test, better done than any other test since, with purpose-built mules only, and 440 absolutely crushed (slicing manila rope, but in most other categories as well) all the others steels including INFI, CPM-3V and even D-2 (though that was the only one that was closer)...

I've also seen an Italian owner pitting a Randall Model 14 in 440B against a Busse Sasquatch of similar edge thickness, chopping a concrete block, and the Randall 440B edge showed almost no damage, much less damage than the Busse, chopping through the cinder block... Not really scientific, but do you still think you want to run away from 440?

Gaston

You know as well as I do that not all 440 knives are the same.

I have had very good luck with knives offering 440C with a decent heat treatment. But, in general, 440 is lacking because of poor HT and the fact that most of the knives are produced to a low price point. Look how many just say 440 on the blade. No 440A, 440B or 440C. Just basic 440 or maybe 440 Stainless. Why would they not mark them with more info? There is a very simple reason that many knife companies only mark their knives with 440 and I think you are smart enough to figure out why.

I find your comments about AUS6 interesting because one of my all time favorite knives only came in AUS6. The steel is lacking in that knife also, BTW.

Oh, just for the record, both my wallet and wife keep me from becoming a real steel snob so I am on the look out for a good deal on a reasonably priced knife.

I also look very closely at the knife manufacturers and their reputation. Looking at the maker and their customer service is one of the many things that make me run from most 440 knives. Another is the common sense to know that the steel industry has not been sitting on it's backside for the 20 + years that 440 has been around.

But, if you want to embrace 440 steel and make it your BFF, knock yourself out.
 
Earlier I said every knife has some luck built in. Whatever the steel used we don't often know what the manufacturer did with it and what processes it went through to get to the end product. What it looks like, the design, its steel and possibly a stamp or details on the side of the box are pretty much what we get from the shop's window. Reports and actually using it will tell if its any good or not. We all buy hoping the manufacturer has done its part to give us a good product. Reputation and the looks and feel is what we really buy into.
What works on folders doesn't mean it will automatically translate to a large fixed blade. Thin or thick, hard or soft, or some differential heat treatment add to confuse the issue. Basically does it cut the way we want and will it survive long term use?

Seki city can make some very great knives. Some they have made haven't worked so well. Same goes for all the great historic blade making areas of the world. The Blackjack Marauder MKII and Al Mar Pathfinder both come from Seki. The former Aus6 has never failed, the latter, forgot what steel, failed often. Neither are in production now but this illustrates that it doesn't always go right. Soligen Germany, Sheffield England are two other famous knife making centres, but there are plenty others around the world. All of them can make a great knife, but not all knives are great.

Benchmade can make a great knife. Some I've owned have done brilliantly, others no luck at all. Same can be said of many manufacturers. When a manufacturer gets it right then that knife will do a lifetime of work and be a joy to use. When something is wrong they don't last, or don't get used. Draw Queens add nothing to how good a knife might be or what luck it might have.

"What is the best" is what everyone asks. Well there isn't one. Some just might just have the mix that make them very good knives indeed and have that luck to give a lifetime of use. For some people its a hobby trying to pick out the better contenders and picking through the mix that make them that little bit better. For some they actually make knives and strive to make something even better. For most of us we buy into reputation and hope the manufacturer or maker has delivered what we hoped for; its a gamble but choose well not such a big gamble.. well if the knife has a bit of luck built in.
 
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"What I wish I’d known about knives when I first started buying them."

For me, that would be the following:

- I need an alox SAK, one large quality modern folder, a medium stockman, and three good kitchen knives. Nothing more.
- Learning how to sharpen and having the right tools for the job is more important than everything else I have learned about knives.
- Avoid knife forums once I have learned the first two things, to save myself tons of money. :)
 
I agree, but you forgot a good bread knife. I prefer the Victorinox Huntsman and a penknife. I also like a fixed sheath knife, whatever that is, as I do enough hunting and fishing.
Anything more are wood and forestry tools.

Sharpening and maintaining a knife properly is probably the most important skill to master. Really not difficult. Doesn't matter how great a knife is if you can't keep it sharp.
 
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"What I wish I’d known about knives when I first started buying them."

For me, that would be the following:

- I need an alox SAK, one large quality modern folder, a medium stockman, and three good kitchen knives. Nothing more.
- Learning how to sharpen and having the right tools for the job is more important than everything else I have learned about knives.
- Avoid knife forums once I have learned the first two things, to save myself tons of money. :)

Good points. The concept is sound in terms of "needing knives". Substitute as needed based on your preferences. The kitchen knives can often double as steak knives. But it depends on how many sit at your table. But for one person, perhaps two... three + one is probably about right for kitchen knives.
 
I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last, 440 1095, there will never be anything better for blade steel.
 
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Example 2, edge geometry: most users would agree that CPM-154 is generally superior to 440A. But if you sharpen both knives at 20+ degrees per side, you’re not going to see much difference in actual performance, so why would you pay the extra for the more premium steel?

Oh Really. The real world would like you to wake up and stop dreaming please.
 
Oh Really. The real world would like you to wake up and stop dreaming please.

Can you back up your invective? There are several statements in what you quoted. What is false?

- most users agree CPM154 is superior to 440A.

- if you sharpen knives of different steels to the same geometry, you're not going to see much difference in cutting performance.

- why should you pay more to get the same cutting performance.

Personally, I think there are nuances to all the statements, and see what the OP was getting at, even if I would have stated them differently. Your insult, on the other hand, I don't see any real point to. If you have a disagreement, why not state what it is and your argument? Why just drive-by? It's rude.
 
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