What is going on with the ABS?

My lame attmpts at humor aside, this has been a very enlightening thread. A comment/clarificatin from moi......My "death to midtechs" joke was based on this.......collectors like Pete,Steven, Kevin, etc. are the bread and butter customers for the smiths that have reached the pinnacle or their craft. But the greatest potential customer base for guys like me.........once I get to making a presentable product on reasonable quantities, that is........are the soldiers, sailors, airman, Marine, cops, hunters, outdoorsmen, bushcrafters and neophyte collectors with not much pocket change. And. as the Reno show has demonstrated, some of the more well healed members of some of these groups, like the folks who attend the SCI show, are too. Hence my comments aboput marketing of the ABS. I don't think that it is feasible to market individual members other than making note of extraordinary accomplishments, but I think that the ABS could learn from other organizations that have done industry wide general promotions. In order to not only preserve the art of the forged blade, but to make sure it continues to be a viable, growing art form, we need to be aggresive in getting the word out to the rest of what appears to be a growing market for what are, relative to the typical big box store fare, more expensive knives. The average guy who walks into Bass Pro may not be inclined to shell out $2500 for an art bowie like one of Don's, but he MIGHT be inclined to drop $200-400 on a nice hunter to go along with his $1000-1500+ rifle/scope combo. When I was at Bass Pro in Dallas last week, I notice that they had scaled back their knife selcetion. No more Benchmades or Berettas. Strictly Gerber, Buck, etc. I don't know if an official presence at events like SHOT or the NRA Annual meeting are one possible solution, but the bottom line is that we have to be proactive about expanding our potential market. I am sure that I speak for a lot of newbie smiths when I say that I want to get my knives in people's hands and, in my case, i want to get USERS into people's hands so that I can contribute to the preservation of the USE of forged blades, in addition to the making and collecting of them. I am not making the forged v. stock removal argument as to which is "better". What I will say is that, in my opinion, the handmade knive out there today generally have the potential to be "better" than the factory or midtech stuff, and in cases of newer guys who have really busted their hump to refine their craft, much better VALUE than a lot of the pricey mass market stuff.
 
curious question:

for a using knife , how many folks even care about a MS or JS stamp ?
I am talking use , not opening letters , but something more along the lines of what a large knife would be used for.

Or does the MS/JS stamp merely attract the "collectors" ?

I admit to not knowing alot about the ABS , but its what the forging world has right now , for better or worse.
 
I am going to pull the plug on a forged camp knife from a local maker, but who is known all over the world and a member on here. He is not a journey man smith, or master smith, but he is still a great maker. I was almost going to say that the ABS stamp carries more money with it, but then some makers with ABS stamps make great products and still charge the prices they had when they weren't ABS smiths. It is all very complicated in my eye looking at it too deeply. I really don't care about smith stamps etc, I just want a well made knife from a good maker.
 
You know, that Bladeforums Bowie Kevin just posted is truly something, huh? The knife, the website, the cause, the marketing and PR... all extremely well done. Stuff like that does a lot to promote the forged blade. And these guys did it all on their own.

Just some food for thought...
 
John T Wylie Jr said:
curious question:

for a using knife , how many folks even care about a MS or JS stamp ?
I am talking use , not opening letters , but something more along the lines of what a large knife would be used for.

Or does the MS/JS stamp merely attract the "collectors" ?

I admit to not knowing alot about the ABS , but its what the forging world has right now , for better or worse.
Click to expand...

The last hammer-in I attended I watched Shawn Ellis chop a 2x4 in half under 6 seconds. Brion Tomberlin cut a shotgun shell (vertical) in half. Lin Rhea and several other participants cut a 1" piece of rope that was suspended by a string, but could'nt break the string in the attempt. The last two events were performed after the 2x4 chop, no sharpening in between, and blades inspected for damage. I would say that these blades were meant to perform.....not just look good. I don't think anyone has a beef with the ABS in regards to their performance standards.
Bob
 
John T Wylie Jr said:
curious question:

for a using knife , how many folks even care about a MS or JS stamp ?
I am talking use , not opening letters , but something more along the lines of what a large knife would be used for.

Or does the MS/JS stamp merely attract the "collectors" ?

I admit to not knowing alot about the ABS , but its what the forging world has right now , for better or worse.
Click to expand...

John,

I don't care about stamps, but DO care about makers......I have using knives from both forgers and stock removers.

The only using knives I have from non-ABS forgers are Ed Schempp and Phil Baldwin. These makers are both superlative forgers who COULD be MS if they chose to be, they do not.

Being ABS JS/MS does not magically confer huge skills in forging, it means, as previously stated, that certain standards were met.

All this said, many of (over 85%) the forged knives that I own were made by ABS ranked JS/MS smiths.

Best Regards,

STeven Garsson
 
Wulf said:
You know, that Bladeforums Bowie Kevin just posted is truly something, huh? The knife, the website, the cause, the marketing and PR... all extremely well done. Stuff like that does a lot to promote the forged blade. And these guys did it all on their own.

Just some food for thought...
Click to expand...
Thank you, Derrick. I am glad you see the efforts.

www.BFBBowie.com

What you DON'T see on the flyer or the website is a mention of the ABS. Four of the BEST makers supporting the ABS, donating their time and work for a completely charitable reason, Five others who either own scads of ABS knives or help to promote them, and they were advised NOT to use the term ABS in any of the promotion. This came by way of the board...

Someone had to say this, and Roger was holding back....

Sure, we live in a litigious society, but this is letting the tail wag the dog.

Coop
 
Yep, like I said, you guys did a really outstanding job with it. The initiative of individuals like yourselves is filling in where perhaps the ABS is falling short. I hate to say it but the more that the ABS withdraws from the knife community and the general public, the less relevant it will become.
 
SharpByCoop said:
Thank you, Derrick. I am glad you see the efforts.

www.BFBBowie.com

What you DON'T see on the flyer or the website is a mention of the ABS. Four of the BEST makers supporting the ABS, donating their time and work for a completely charitable reason, Five others who either own scads of ABS knives or help to promote them, and they were advised NOT to use the term ABS in any of the promotion. This came by way of the board...

Someone had to say this, and Roger was holding back....

Sure, we live in a litigious society, but this is letting the tail wag the dog.

Coop
Click to expand...

Interesting.........like I said before, methinks that the ABS Board canbe a bit paranoid in the legal area.
 
SharpByCoop said:
What you DON'T see on the flyer or the website is a mention of the ABS. Four of the BEST makers supporting the ABS, donating their time and work for a completely charitable reason, Five others who either own scads of ABS knives or help to promote them, and they were advised NOT to use the term ABS in any of the promotion. This came by way of the board...

Someone had to say this, and Roger was holding back....

Sure, we live in a litigious society, but this is letting the tail wag the dog.

Coop
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I am NOT as nice or polite as either Roger or Coop. That is truly pathetic :barf:.

P
 
When I think ABS and see the MS or JS stamp I immediately think two things to myself, that being "Performance vs Hype" and thats exactly what goes through my mind. Maybe I'm biased because I make and design purely utilitarian knives myself when I actually do build one but I think there is also the nostalgia of it, the artistic nature of it and the fact that it was done in a tried and true fashion handed down from other masters. For me this is much the same as the nostalgia of a pull out choke and throttle on a machine built before planned obsolecence like I have in my old 55 IHC Harvester pick up truck.

I find carrying a forged blade or any carbon steel blade for that matter not only nostalgic but also quite fulfilling just like I do when I'm driving my old trucks but I really like things that remind me of 'yesteryear' as a general rule. Its nice to have a blade that takes on character and aging, gray around the edges if you will much the same as I have. At least that is how I've always felt about it. I don't think you need to chop concrete blocks and look at the edge to appreciate the art but its there if you must I guess.

STR
 
I voted with my feet, out of the ABS some years back. It had to do with politics and politics. The ABS started out with some lofty goals. Based on my observations it lost those goals and became a good ol' boys club. Being a good ol' boy means east of the Mississippi. The ABS pays lip service to those of us out West. Joe Cordoba tried to change that and got a bloody head over it.

I spoke with Red St. Cyr at Knife Expo last Feb and asked what the ABS had planned for anything west this year, and whether those of us out west were going to ever be considered equals. His silence was deafening.

I once asked an ABS board member why those of us out west couldn't test at the Blade Show West. He went on about consistency in judging. Well, either any MS can judge or none should. It would require the ABS to loosen its good ol' boy hold from the East.

I know one maker who was flunked for MS, not based at all on the quality of his work. This maker frequently wins awards, including Best Of Show. On his table he had some partially formed damascus billets, just to show folks how it is done. They had short tangs. One ABS board member asked whether the tangs were too short, Bill answered they weren't if you knew how to use a mig weklder. Red St Cyr was instructed "You'd better have a talk with your friend because he has an attitude problem." Red did, but Bill was flunked solely on the basis of attitude. If anyone doesn't believe Bill Herndon does MS quality work and then some, you'd better look again.

I find it wrong that some judges don't meet the quality of work personally that they demand of new smiths. The playing fied is hardly level.

Bottom line is that the ABS became all the bad things they saw in the Guild. In the meantime, I've been to their school, seen th quality of many of the MS' work, and find that an MS stamp doesn't mean that you always do the job, just that one allegedly knows how.

I once desired to be an MS. I no longer care. I am quite capable of MS quality work and don't feel the need to be involved in yet another political organization and the massive egos that ensue. I'd rather make knives, do the best job I can with them, and not stress over whose backside needs to be kissed.

There has been talk for years of starting a NW Bladesmith organization. Al Barton, an MS, was really involved in that before a brain tumor took his life. Some of us still kick the idea around. In the meantime, The ABS should be called the Eastern Bladesmith Society, because us westerners will have our dues collected, and receive nothing more.

This post may guarantee that I'll never receive an ABS MS rating. I won't loose a wink of sleep over it.

Gene
 
One more time for those who missed it earlier:

Coop wrote:
What you DON'T see on the flyer or the website is a mention of the ABS. Four of the BEST makers supporting the ABS, donating their time and work for a completely charitable reason, Five others who either own scads of ABS knives or help to promote them, and they were advised NOT to use the term ABS in any of the promotion. This came by way of the board...
Click to expand...

The ABS Board does not care about you, your causes, your thoughts and/or your feelings. You as a collector are nothing but a necessary evil. As you will purchase knives from their membership and give them hope (sometimes false) that they are carrying on the tradition.

Again, you are not a member, you have no vote. The ABS Board does not care about you, your concerns or your thoughts on forging, the market or any thing else related to the ABS.

Can you write letters, sure. Send Emails, you bet. Speak to other members of the ABS, absolutely. Guess what, the letters will be ignored, the emails deleted (if the web master can get around to them) and the makers will nod their heads in agreement and not say a word to the Board.

The ABS Board of Directors does not care about you collectors.

It was pointed out to me that many of the "influentials" were reading this thread and that it might even be brought up at the meeting. Since so many influentials are reading this pass along to the Board of Directors that they can contact Jerry Fisk or Harvey Dean for the best way to contact me.

Note to the Board, my opinions are mine alone. I used Jerry and Harvey's names as I know you will know how to contact me.

I will be more than happy to talk to the board of directors at this upcoming Blade Show.

Be forewarned You will be asked pointed direct questions. Answers such as "we need to study that" will not be accepted.

I write this realizing that the ABS Board will not contact me. We all know why.

WWG
 
Hi Silent:

You wrote:
If there is any truth to it WWG, no matter what their goal is, they are serving artisans who make their living, most of them, from knifemaking, and collectors and users are the ones who are supporting these knifemakers.
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Truth is very very few custom knife makers make their living exclusively by making custom knives.

The ABS is not serving artisans, they are serving the ABS Charter. They don't care if these makers make a nickel on a knife. If they did they would not go out of their way to have a lawyer tell them to be sure to put the logo on their business card. As it may be inferred that the ABS is in some way gaining a profit indirectly from the sale of a knife by one of its members.

Further proof is the ABS's stand on the Charitable work done by 4 of its members. What kind of organization doesn't want to be associated with a charity thats goal is to eliminate Breast Cancer????

Hey ABS it is a non-profit organization who will receive 100% of the proceeds. The ABS will not be viewed as in someway benefiting from this.

So Silent...need more proof?

WWG
 
ptgdvc said:
I am NOT as nice or polite as either Roger or Coop. That is truly pathetic :barf:.

P
Click to expand...

An appropriate adjective. One of many that spring to mind. :mad: And for clarification, nobody asked the ABS for their endorsement, support of approval of this project. What they objected to was the use of the term "ABS" in describing the rank held by the makers involved - i.e. - ABS Journeyman Smith Russ Andrews.

THAT was found to contravene the sanctity of their not-for-profit gospel. Get your head around that one if you are able - I am either too dumb or lack imagination. Leaving aside the fact that this is an entirely charitable venture, how can it possibly be anything but a simple statement of fact to describe the makers in this fashion? Sheesh.

Roger
 
Joss said:
Who's on the board and who elect them?
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If I understand correctly, the Board appoints new members. Some of you have commented that collectors are not members and don't get a vote. the factof the matter is that members who are knifemakers do not get a vote. As for the east coast/west coast thing.most of the guys who have been "hot" for a while come from west of the Big River. The Southwest seems to me to be the area with the highest concentration of smiths in general and guyswith MS stams in particular. I always assumed that was because of proximity and exposure. I have heard it said that the European knife makers and knife buyers give not a fig about "ABS" yet I see them showing up to the hammer-ins where our Master Smiths are demonstrating and I have talked to a number of guys on BB that either own or aspire to own these knives. I asked Joe Keeslar, who lives in France 4 months out of the year, why the ABs didn't do some kind of "official" outreach over there. The answer was something about legal liablity in the U.S. for things that happen in the E.U. I was puzzled. Personally, I think skmiths should be able to test at Blade West and particularly at Reno because it is the one show that is a totally ABS event. As for consistency, my recollection is thaty Ed Caffrey has been one of the JS judges and we know what part of the country he lives. THis is almost as funny as the old Roman voting system. You may have been a citizen of Rome, but if you lived in Spain, Palestine, Gaul, etc, you couldn't vote unles you took a trip to Rome and voted there.
 
RogerP said:
An appropriate adjective. One of many that spring to mind. :mad: And for clarification, nobody asked the ABS for their endorsement, support of approval of this project. What they objected to was the use of the term "ABS" in describing the rank held by the makers involved - i.e. - ABS Journeyman Smith Russ Andrews.

THAT was found to contravene the sanctity of their not-for-profit gospel. Get your head around that one if you are able - I am either too dumb or lack imagination. Leaving aside the fact that this is an entirely charitable venture, how can it possibly be anything but a simple statement of fact to describe the makers in this fashion? Sheesh.

Roger
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Whoa......you mean this objection was unsolicited? I thought the guys went to them first to ask if it was ok.
 
Well, I rushed over here because I heard someone was choking on something (just updated my CPR certification and haven't performed the Heimlich in a while - thought this might be an opportunity). But I see WWG has everything under control.

Seriously, all I can add to this discussion is that my experience with the ABS has been terrific. I'm not a knifemaker and I'm not in need of their endorsement for anything so I haven't had the opportunity to test their responsiveness to my own unique personal agenda.

When I think of the ABS my mind goes immediately to the weekend hammer-ins they've put on over the years. For me, that's where the juice is. That's where I got really fired-up (pun intended) about the knife thing. I'm sure I've bought as many knives from bladesmiths at hammer-ins as I have at shows. I love the educational spirit, the small group setting, the interactions that go on between people when the official day is done and I particularly love how family and child friendly the hammer-ins are.

I'm happy to leave the rest of it up to the 'experts.'

I did want to sincerely thank you, STeven, for your kind words about my column in the ABS Journal, "Thin Threads and Forged Steel - The Collector's View." The article to which you referred, "The Knife That Foretold the Future" was (I think) my 11th or 12th. They are all true stories of irony and/or significance from the knife world which illustrate that we are often lead to the most important relationships and experiences in our lives by very thin threads - chance happenings and random events as it were.

I am particularly indebted to WULF (Derrick) for his willingness to collaborate with me on the first one, "Style Is Not Random." (I think that was the title) I was new in the knife world, and nervous as I stood behind a table at the BLADE Show with a set of six Scagel knives in front of me. WULF came along and was nice to me. That is to say he, unlike some others, he didn't seem to be thinking, "How did a nobody like you come up with this set of Scagels when I'M the one who deserves to have them!" (Yes, I'm serious!) He was my first friend in the knife world. Speaking of hammer-ins - Derrick, I wish I could be there. Y'all are gonna have a great time, I'm sure.

So, I'm going to stick to what I enjoy and do best - write about and photograph all the interesting stuff I encounter in the knife world - and leave the politics to others.

Thanks again, STeven. I've learned a lot from you too, over the past few years. (And I mean that sincerely, too.)

PS: Rob (Goofy Dufus) - how can you deny that we are related man? You know that back there somewhere our ancestors were interbreeding some how and that's how we got the same last name. Prettier? You ain't seen me lately cous' ...;)
 
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