What is reasonable and legal?

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Casinostocks said:
The quoted 2+ years lead time is purely speculative. The said company has never stated anywhere (that I am aware of) quantifying that kind of lead time frame. People who participate on that sub-forum have come up with that sort of estimate based on their own past experiences. If you are a believer in, "past performances being a very good indicator of the future performances" then you ought to consider seeking refund(s). It is not a secret that one or two of their preorder models may very well end up having a waiting time period leading up the fulfillment in excess of 18 months (again, my own speculation).

To the couple of people on here (not the OP) who have chimed in with such grandiose statements such as, "you are now an investor", please get real! The reality is this: whether your skin in the game is waiting for 1 preorder or 20+ units on preorder, you are just a customer who has paid upfront. The knives you are getting or going to be getting from that company is easily underpriced by at least 30%. The proof being what these knives are selling for right here on the Exchange, on eBay (by about 50% increase as compared to list prices) and also as compared to what another equally well respected baldesmith with very similar high quality knives sells his merchandise on here in a matter of seconds (and he is underpriced too, but not by as much as the other).

If this post is going to ruffle some feathers, then good! It is meant to. What I have stated to the best of my knowledge is factual and I am not white knighting. I also have skin in the game and will be adding some more so if they go belly-up, I will also lose but that was a risk which I was willing to take at the time of when my own preorders were placed.

Lastly, their Monday Sales are NOT based on a lottery system, just like the other maker's Friday sales are no lottery. It is called first come, first served and when the quantity is low, this method obviously takes a very fast trigger finger and almost a troll like attitude in order to land one of those. It is not for everyone and I understand. Those who do not like this system can easily seek those knives on the Exchange and acquire them by paying the seller's premium.

As a friend of mine on here reminded me a couple of weeks ago, us knife buffs always want our knives as high quality s possible, as inexpensive as possible and as fast as possible. Welp, with this Co, you can only have 2 out of the 3 for now.
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Just to stay on track,

You are applying the wrong term. "Pure speculation" ? not even close my friend. Speculation is defined as "the forming of a theory or conjecture without firm evidence". There is PLENTY of firm irrefutable direct evidence in leadtimes. Those past year(s) performance lead times are evidence and data points that can allow one to extrapolate an estimate, NOT simply speculate.. The degree of accuracy is speculative but the trendline is clear as a bell. and we know it's not going to change because we know the bottle neck will always be one person and there are not plans to change that. That is fact that is stated directly by the owner. And I am already at 15 months on a preorder that has many more months to go.

The "speculative" part on my part is how much risk is there in 2+ year wait's of loosing it all through no intended fault of SK! (unforeseen health, fiances etc). That has been the point I am focused on. I am already at 15 month and much longer to go on some orders so this is uncharted territory for me. Because it's uncharted, I was looking for outside input of collectors outside the SK niche that (may) have heard of very long time pay up front with (2+ year) wait times. As far as I can tell there is NO known case of pay up front with 2+ year leadtimes for a Production (key word production) knife. So there you have it, now I am flying blind as are you and my playing the odds IS speculative.. that much is true. I was on the fence of pulling my 15 month leadtimes and counting items, but honestly this recent 4.7 that's gone on now over 8 months and counting was the final evidence and determining factor preorders are not for me. To everyone else, I say godspeed. I am going to use the refunded money towards other knives.
 
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MLM: Perhaps I should not have used the adjective "pure" before the word speculation. I grant you that argument plus the concerns which you have, i.e, health, personal situation, finances, burning out...

You have been in this preorder queue for longer period than I have and you have legitimate reasons for your concerns. To me it seems that you have gotten spooked enough to be embarking down the refund route on some or all your orders. However, I do not agree with your tactics of posting on here and also on the other thread which HK had highlighted. Granted that you sought opinions of those without any skin in the game, but inevitably you have attracted the attention of those who deem the actions of the Co as "scam". We (collectively) had a discussion about these issues on the subforum and many had suggested to you via posts and PMs that it was your right to opt out and to seek a refund. If the Co fails to refund you fully in a timely manner, then they earn the dubious right of being exposed on the GBU or the W&C forums. There is no evidence so far, what so ever that they have failed to refund on long standing and yet unfulfilled orders.

Also, I wanted to highlight to those who are not in the know that contrary to your statement, the S!K Mondays Sales are NOT based on a lottery system. It is simply a first-come, first served system while the quantities can run low at times making the process exacerbating for the later comers. Also I took issues with the Smart Alec's who had chimed in throwing ridiculous statements around such as preorder/prepayment = investors... No, no and no! Unless someone owns stocks and shares in a company, they are not investors. Period and exclamation mark. Personally speaking, the risk to reward ratio with this Co and its products is about max of 1K of my money in preorders in their books. They have shown me enough so far with their Factory 2nds for me to take that risk. Everyone has a different comfort level and different exposure to risks. That said, I also state that although I am loyal to the brand, my loyalties are not exclusive to that brand and I do and I will spread my knife hobby money around. I have my other favorite(s) and I think that the Miller-Bros are also an excellent choice for one's collection.
 
Casinostocks said:
MLM: Perhaps I should not have used the adjective "pure" before the word speculation. I grant you that argument plus the concerns which you have, i.e, health, personal situation, finances, burning out...

You have been in this preorder queue for longer period than I have and you have legitimate reasons for your concerns. To me it seems that you have gotten spooked enough to be embarking down the refund route on some or all your orders. However, I do not agree with your tactics of posting on here and also on the other thread which HK had highlighted. Granted that you sought opinions of those without any skin in the game, but inevitably you have attracted the attention of those who deem the actions of the Co as "scam". We (collectively) had a discussion about these issues on the subforum and many had suggested to you via posts and PMs that it was your right to opt out and to seek a refund. If the Co fails to refund you fully in a timely manner, then they earn the dubious right of being exposed on the GBU or the W&C forums. There is no evidence so far, what so ever that they have failed to refund on long standing and yet unfulfilled orders.

Also, I wanted to highlight to those who are not in the know that contrary to your statement, the S!K Mondays Sales are NOT based on a lottery system. It is simply a first-come, first served system while the quantities can run low at times making the process exacerbating for the later comers. Also I took issues with the Smart Alec's who had chimed in throwing ridiculous statements around such as preorder/prepayment = investors... No, no and no! Unless someone owns stocks and shares in a company, they are not investors. Period and exclamation mark. Personally speaking, the risk to reward ratio with this Co and its products is about max of 1K of my money in preorders in their books. They have shown me enough so far with their Factory 2nds for me to take that risk. Everyone has a different comfort level and different exposure to risks. That said, I also state that although I am loyal to the brand, my loyalties are not exclusive to that brand and I do and I will spread my knife hobby money around. I have my other favorite(s) and I think that the Miller-Bros are also an excellent choice for one's collection.
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Well, I think we are all guilty of throwing out Metaphors used to overstate a point... Some people have used the term "investor" metaphorically to point out the unusual model of payment up front with undetermined wait times.. I have called the monday sales "lottery" because it "feels" like a lottery in that iv seen many/most times the 3v models will be sold out in seconds.. but you are right, they are NOT an actual lottery. So yea.. words do matter and metaphors can be lost on the non SK people.. good point. I think the frustration causes us to turn towards metaphors. For example, "scalping"... well, look at this gso 4.7 http://www.ebay.com/itm/Survive-Kni...178823?hash=item1c686ed747:g:KQgAAOSw9eVXWfYI
you can see why metaphors seem to get used alot in SK stuff...
 
OT: S!K has some very ardent and diehard followers on that auction site. I'd hate to be that seller's inbox. I'm not one to razz on eBay sellers because I believe that the market will ultimately dictate the price, but once upon a time when I had dared to list a 2nd GSO 5.1-20CV, while I was the LOWEST priced Buy-Now, I received a couple of angry email messages. Let me tell you that the label of "scalper" would have been a much nicer and kinder term than what was thrown my way by one seemingly deranged user of that site Nuff said!
 
Casinostocks said:
OT: S!K has some very ardent and diehard followers on that auction site. I'd hate to be that seller's inbox. I'm not one to razz on eBay sellers because I believe that the market will ultimately dictate the price, but once upon a time when I had dared to list a 2nd GSO 5.1-20CV, while I was the LOWEST priced Buy-Now, I received a couple of angry email messages. Let me tell you that the label of "scalper" would have been a much nicer and kinder term than what was thrown my way by one seemingly deranged user of that site Nuff said!
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So does that mean you are not going to bid on my knife? .... I kid, that's not my 4.7.... no way I would auction off my SKs.. to hard to come by!

I was however thinking about ebay'in my barkie bravo3 3v and getting a miller bros. M-8 Have you seen the M-8 videos?? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cplHILWp3AA
 
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I've come to find out that I rather offer what is surplus to my requirement here on the Exchanges because, there's less potential hassles, helps the community, you'll make some more friends and learn a few things more in the process. That trade-off is worth it for me as opposed to making a little more $ on the auction site. As for Miller Bros, I really like their M8 subcompact model as a complementary carry.
 
mimcasual has well described the situation and there is much to do with reading between the lines. I continue to have a very pessimistic attitude towards what I perceive as a loyalty at all cost pervasiveness that seems to overwhelm those of us who request, in a civil manner, the responsibility of a business which seems to thrive and prosper on a completely inefficient business model and attitude. I would never ever have put forth money for a item, that was at the time promised to be delivered within a month. Yes, for the naysayers, the 4.7 was promised delivery in January on the presale page. It amazes me that fan loyalty is blinding sunlight in the face of false optimism. And as a reminder, I have a 3.5 and 4.1 which I acquired prior to the companies move to Idaho. There should be no precedent set whereby a company requests pre payment for goods that aren't even yet produced, a down payment, yes, and investment in the company? No. It amazes me that individuals praise the "perfection" of the knife, when in fact it is simply a production model, it is not by any means a custom, and of which examples can be had daily on the Fixed Blade for Sale forum.
 
So what is stopping you from requesting your full refund(s) and then look for those models on the Exchanges since you claim that their for sale occurrence is on a daily basis? I am not trying to fanboy for S!K but merely to bring some levity to some of the hyperbole which both you and MLM have claimed out of your frustration.

Please come back and report if S!K refuses to refund your full amount which you have tied up in your preorders and if they fail to do so within a reasonable amount of time, then the rest of us can consider to join you to burn them at the stake!
 
Casinostocks said:
So what is stopping you from requesting your full refund(s) and then look for those models on the Exchanges since you claim that their for sale occurrence is on a daily basis? I am not trying to fanboy for S!K but merely to bring some levity to some of the hyperbole which both you and MLM have claimed out of your frustration.

Please come back and report if S!K refuses to refund your full amount which you have tied up in your preorders and if they fail to do so within a reasonable amount of time, then the rest of us can consider to join you to burn them at the stake!
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Its not a matter of a refund, its a matter of a business which falls short of its mark in its presale/preorder advertising. You are not bringing "levity" to many of those who have placed their dollars entrusted in a sale which has no substance of fulfillment. Your hyperbole of burning them at the stake also is trite. And it seems you don't realize the difference between an Exchange forum and that of the Fixed Blades For Sale forum, which consists of knife makers who offer true customs and are often of far superior quality and of fair pricing.
You might want to look into that. I have invested in hundreds of knives, custom, mid tech and production, and am reluctant to engage in condescending discussions.
 
I looked up for myself what Winger was mentioning..

The internet wayback captures periodic snapshots of websites and it's a matter of public Record..
So regarding the GSO 4.7's history off of SK's own website..

https://web.archive.org/web/20150630013353/http://surviveknives.com/production-schedule
Snapsot June 30 2015
"Here is the production schedule, to give you a better idea of where each GSO model is at in the production line:

GSO-5: Waiting on sheaths. Check back here to know when those are shipping out!
Necker II: Next in line for sheaths to be produced
GSO-5.1: In production
GSO-4.7: In production
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As you can see, the gso 4.7 has been in "production" for about a year and is still in production.


Then, another web snapshot dated March 25 2016
https://web.archive.org/web/20160325043019/http://surviveknives.com/production-schedule/

In Production:
GSO-4.7: Preorders and Presale orders are scheduled to be shipping out now through April.
SK-4.7: For now we are aiming for late April availability. Keep an eye on this page in case that changes. Check out the SK Series section for more information.
GSO-2.7: Blades are at the SURVIVE! Workshop. Handles and sheaths are still being made.
GSO-4.1: At production grinding.
GSO-7/7: Steel sheets are getting cut into blades.
GSO-3.5: Up next for water jet cutting.
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There SK! officially said "GSO-4.7: Preorders and Presale orders are scheduled to be shipping out now through April."

We are now almost two months past when SK published delivery would be finished.
And we are upon a year and still going From PRODUCTION start to not being fully delivered.


Now, regarding lead times and what is reasonable, contrary to claimed "disclaimer of no delivery date".. what gets failed to be mentioned is that WHEN people like me ordered thier gso 7/7 15 months ago, SK's site said..
https://web.archive.org/web/20150327054338/http://surviveknives.com/starter/buy-a-knife
It is important that you know these knives have not been produced yet and orders will not begin to ship out for at least a couple of months. While we cannot guarantee a delivery date, we can guarantee that you will get your knife.
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Key words here "Couple of months" So this perpetuated "you knew what you were getting into" defense is not accurate. Any reasonable person that read "at least a couple" at their point of sale would not consider 15 months looking toward 2 years as Jiving with the original "disclaimer" by a long stretch.

That all said, it was the 4.7 that was the ultimate factor why I called in my orders and not buying any more. The growing lead time and missing the mark on stated lead times is not a new thing, it's been going on for years. But The 4.7 was the (final) test to see if the lead times would (finally) come under control. Not only did it not change, it go far worse. And you know what Einstein said about Insanity.



Regarding those wanting a refund. I think for some it's not simply getting a refund walk away and everything is made right as rain. Especially to those who were given wrong stated delivery dates or facing down unreasonable time frames. The sentiment then becomes, "You don't get to hold MY money for over a year with me having NOTHING to show for it without getting some open criticism."
 
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Directed at W:

No, not taking the bait! Ask for your refund(s) which you're entitled too and if you don't receive it (them), please report back. That's all that I would be interested to find out.
 
Casino,

I was happy to see that you were able to snag that 4.7. I hope you like it. You seem new to this whole game, happy and optimistic.


Where I became disfranchised is waiting for the regular production 4.7s since Ellie announced that they would be out by Christmas 2015. It's been one delay after another for going on six months. Then Ellie posted four different reasons why June was a write off as well. I had the nerve to use the word, "Excuses" in a post and was nearly run out of the Survive forum with torches and pitchforks.

I decided at least a couple months ago that I could never be happy with a knife that they had jerked me around so much getting done. I planned to wait for the 4.7 and flip it for a couple extra bucks... ...call it interest, call it payment for the aggravation they have caused. After the last announcement of delays I decided that I just want to be done with Survive and call it a lesson learned. I asked for and got a refund.

Ratmandu, Fiddleback Production, There's even some Koster Bushmasters on DLT right now. Lots of good products out there from reputable companies.
 
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Aside from the war of fancy words...this is supposed to be a production company, Take any other maker and say they miss their lead time by two years with nothing but excuses to offer, what do you think would happen here? Pitchfork party. Red flags are all over the place, paid in full for things that don't exist, no delivery date, delay after delay, etc.

It doesn't appear that they want to fix one of their main issues which is one person doing all the work, well technically not all, considering nearly everything about sk is outsourced. Wonder why they can't/won't hire anyone else to speed things up? I would think at the very least that is the minimum they could do for their customers who have all pre paid. Grinding and assembling are not that difficult of a job, tedious maybe, but not difficult.
 
Casinostocks said:
MLM: Perhaps I should not have used the adjective "pure" before the word speculation. I grant you that argument plus the concerns which you have, i.e, health, personal situation, finances, burning out...

You have been in this preorder queue for longer period than I have and you have legitimate reasons for your concerns. To me it seems that you have gotten spooked enough to be embarking down the refund route on some or all your orders. However, I do not agree with your tactics of posting on here and also on the other thread which HK had highlighted. Granted that you sought opinions of those without any skin in the game, but inevitably you have attracted the attention of those who deem the actions of the Co as "scam". We (collectively) had a discussion about these issues on the subforum and many had suggested to you via posts and PMs that it was your right to opt out and to seek a refund. If the Co fails to refund you fully in a timely manner, then they earn the dubious right of being exposed on the GBU or the W&C forums. There is no evidence so far, what so ever that they have failed to refund on long standing and yet unfulfilled orders.

Also, I wanted to highlight to those who are not in the know that contrary to your statement, the S!K Mondays Sales are NOT based on a lottery system. It is simply a first-come, first served system while the quantities can run low at times making the process exacerbating for the later comers. Also I took issues with the Smart Alec's who had chimed in throwing ridiculous statements around such as preorder/prepayment = investors... No, no and no! Unless someone owns stocks and shares in a company, they are not investors. Period and exclamation mark. Personally speaking, the risk to reward ratio with this Co and its products is about max of 1K of my money in preorders in their books. They have shown me enough so far with their Factory 2nds for me to take that risk. Everyone has a different comfort level and different exposure to risks. That said, I also state that although I am loyal to the brand, my loyalties are not exclusive to that brand and I do and I will spread my knife hobby money around. I have my other favorite(s) and I think that the Miller-Bros are also an excellent choice for one's collection.
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Hyperbole? Tactics? Ok... I have and am now laying out documented facts...

I have been pretty reserved in my criticisms here and on the subforms. (not aimed at you) But there is only so much short stroking and subversion of the past facts I can stomach. When someone makes a "snarky" comment for months past SK STATED delivery on the forums and gets pummeled by the fans and that thread gets locked... yea I would say the record needs to be set straight. When defending the indefensible rises to parody level, yea the record needs to be set straight. And when I see fans constantly challenged others with erroneous info, it becomes a compulsion of mine to set the record straight even though I consider myself a fan. Just as an example, some take offense at some using the term "investor". I never used that terminology but you know who did? SK... As a matter of public record and fact SK!'s OWN words, and intent to treat preorders/starters as Investors was a fact on their site.

http://surviveknives.com/starter/

We need to grow so we can get rid of the "out of stock" phrase that is plaguing our website. In order to do so we need working capital to invest in larger production runs and equipment to give us more control over the quality of each finished product. We are ready to do the work but we could really use your help.
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The SURVIVE! Starter is designed as a crowd funding source to help us grow our production capabilities. With your investment we will be able to increase the size and frequency of our production runs, meaning we will have more models in stock for longer periods of time. Our goal is to end the "Out of Stock" notices completely.
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We will also use the investment funds
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This will give us the opportunity to have more oversight at the end of every production run, decreasing the amount of Factory 2nds and increasing the overall fit and finish. With your help we will be able to make a better knife, much faster.
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Read more about both investment options for full reward details!
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There are two ways you can take part in this investment opportunity: Buy a Knife or Buy Store Credit.
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Instead of a discount, we will be adding a percentage of your investment to your store credit balance. For example, when you invest $500 you will actually be getting $525.
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Investments between $50-$950 will receive an extra 5%
If you invest $1,000-$2,450 we will add an additional 10% to your store credit balance
Any investments totalling $2,500 or more earn a 15% bonus to their store credit balance
If you are considering an investment of $5,000 or more please contact us so we can discuss additional options and benefits
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El-C: Thank you for that succinct and cogent post. Yes we do indeed come from different time frames and periods of activities in the said Co's existence. It has been precisely because of some of the dissenting voices and information that I drew up my own conclusions with regards to risk / reward. I have already spoken my peace about that subject and who knows, perhaps if i am sitting in your chair 2 years down the road without any fulfillment on my current 3 preorders, I may choose the exact exit strategy as you and should they not exist at that time, it is NOT like I didn't know the downside. I am glad that you received the refund(s) you requested and were fully entitled to.

MLM: I had read all of their promotional "investment" incentives from their starter programs. This strategy is one way of attracting capital, but it is not the best way of accessing capital for a novice company, yet many before (different fields) have made the same mistakes. I am guessing that there are some dealers or distributors who may currently have issues with S!k, perhaps because of having followed that methodology. For the most parts we know what their problems are and how they can be improved upon, but it takes some flexibility on the part of heir management / ownership cadre. They are very good people and not a bunch who are running a sham/scam outfit to get quick access to fast riches and there is no evidence what so ever to support that sort of negative supposition.

SS: I am not a fly on the wall at that workshop but the lack of "proper manpower" could very well be one of the main problematic issues.
 
Posted by Casinostocks

"'MLM: I had read all of their promotional "investment" incentives from their starter programs. This strategy is one way of attracting capital, but it is not the best way of accessing capital for a novice company, yet many before (different fields) have made the same mistakes. I am guessing that there are some dealers or distributors who may currently have issues with S!k, perhaps because of having followed that methodology. For the most parts we know what their problems are and how they can be improved upon, but it takes some flexibility on the part of heir management / ownership cadre. They are very good people and not a bunch who are running a sham/scam outfit to get quick access to fast riches and there is no evidence what so ever to support that sort of negative supposition. "

You are being an apologist and totally lack objectivity.
 
winger51 said:
You are being an apologist and totally lack objectivity.
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Check his Profile \ Post Areas and his blind enthusiasm will make sense.

You want a nice knife without the hassle checkout the Knife Makers For Sale \ Fixed Blades Forum and get a Nathan the Machinists Field Knife when he lists them. There's a huge demand, they're amazing and they're a custom knife.
 
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braillediver said:
Check his Profile \ Post Areas and his blind enthusiasm will make sense.

You want a nice knife without the hassle checkout the Knife Makers For Sale \ Fixed Blades Forum and get a Nathan the Machinists Field Knife when he lists them. There's a huge demand, they're amazing and they're a custom knife.
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Yes in fact your recommendation is right on, and I have a Nathan Field Knife, extremely well done. One of my favorites.
 
I am an S!K enthusiast but I am not blindly enthusiastic, so the use of hyperbole just continues with the dissenters and the detractors. If I decide to reside on a sub forum to shoot the shiite with my fellow boardies it does not make me a Koolaid drinking fanboy, but it makes you to be perceived as someone who makes summary conclusions based on my posting statistics. So what's next? I suppose being on BFs makes me a blade groupie!

NTM, he is excellent. I already have a Light Chopper. Well, do you? When he posts his Field Knives next, I will be there right on time like a fly on honey. If NTM had a forum on here, I'd be on that one too. Some of the other knives mentioned on here, excellent choices but they don't float my boat. Again, I get all sort of pretzelled, twisted and turned arguments on here and I do understand the frustration, yet when I simply ask why not get refunded and simply be done with it, I get the feeling that some of you think that perhaps more than a refund is owed to you at this stage of the game. If so, I am fairly certain that their management can also send you an apology if it should cool your ire.

In closing, this is all that I'm personally interested in and frankly speaking, I don't care about your feelings: Were you refunded after you formally requested for a full refund or were you rejected, ignored or stonewalled. If the latter scenarios, what measures did you take or are you going to take to mitigate your position? Conjecture and hyperbole does not and will not help and aid anyone else as it just adds to the frustration.
 
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