What is the Definition of Ettrick??

[Jack Black]

They both have odd details in their fit and finish.
The mechanical function of the NZs is quite a bit better than the Wood one.
Snappy and flush in all three positions, the NZs have half stops as well; quite superior!!
The Wood has no half stop, and though it has seen little use, snaps poorly both ways.
No extra finishing on the NZs - everything is squared off; very square handles, with no taper at the bolsters.
Both knives have "wrap around" springs, filling the opening left by the short blade.

Great details Charlie :thumbup: As you know, like all the Sheffield firms, both Lockwood's and Elliot's would have used outworkers to make most of their knives, so there could be differences in tang stamps, quality, and design even for knives which were made in the same year. Those old Sheffield cutlery firms didn't make things easy for us!

 

[Bartleby]

They both have odd details in their fit and finish.
The mechanical function of the NZs is quite a bit better than the Wood one.
Snappy and flush in all three positions, the NZs have half stops as well; quite superior!!
The Wood has no half stop, and though it has seen little use, snaps poorly both ways.
No extra finishing on the NZs - everything is squared off; very square handles, with no taper at the bolsters.
Both knives have "wrap around" springs, filling the opening left by the short blade.

The fact that the NZ knives are also advertisers might mean one should be cautious in assigning a time frame based on finishing details. Since they would perhaps have been given away as a premium some cosmetic steps may not have been given the same amount of attention as a commercial version. It might be time to search for Young's Sheep Dip adverts. Simply fascintating group of knives!

 

[Iris]

I posted a few links to Young's Sheep Dip adverts earlier on in the thread I believe. From 1940's NZ newspapers if I remember rightly.

 

[Bartleby]

I posted a few links to Young's Sheep Dip adverts earlier on in the thread I believe. From 1940's NZ newspapers if I remember rightly.

Sorry ma'am, I musta whizzed past them. Will go back and take a look, thanks!

 

[Iris]

No apology necessary I think though they were on my original thread. Not this one

Sorry ma'am, I musta whizzed past them. Will go back and take a look, thanks!

 

[Bartleby]

Looking at the boxes, the letter "Z" and number 9 seem to be out of alignment with the number "36". There is no way to tell now, but it would be convenient if "36" was the year of manufacture for a promotional run, interrupted by WWII, and these were left over. After the war the promotion would have been done and forgotten. Of course the numbers could mean just about anything, life is never so easy!

Waynorth, I am wondering if there are any numbers or letters stamped on the inside of the liners that correspond to the boxes?

 

[waynorth]

Here is a fresh scan of the box labels. Both boxes have identical labels, right down to the quirks of penmanship! There are no other markings in or on the boxes, nor inside the knives. Interestingly, the knives are "cleaned" inside!
That is, the inside of the springs and liners are quite polished, reflecting like mirrors!! That was usually done on higher end knives.
Questions abound!!!

Thanks for the pics, Rachel and Jack.

 

[Bartleby]

Here is a fresh scan of the box labels. Both boxes have identical labels, right down to the quirks of penmanship! There are no other markings in or on the boxes, nor inside the knives. Interestingly, the knives are "cleaned" inside!
That is, the inside of the springs and liners are quite polished, reflecting like mirrors!! That was usually done on higher end knives.
Questions abound!!!

Thanks for the pics, Rachel and Jack.

Cleaned inside would make me lean toward pre-WWII, especially on a promotional piece. Better than what one finds on most high end stuff being turned out today I'd wager.

 

[Bartleby]

No apology necessary I think though they were on my original thread. Not this one

I took a look over yonder and found it, thanks! I actually don't post very often, but these threads have been of great interest, so I have been running around the porch to the different parts of this little saga anyway.

 

[supratentorial]

Nice photos, Charlie :thumbup:

I posted a few links to Young's Sheep Dip adverts earlier on in the thread I believe. From 1940's NZ newspapers if I remember rightly.

Neat ads. :thumbup: A search through Google books will bring up ads from at least as late as the 70s... and around 75 years earlier. Unless the font gives some clues, I don't think the advertisement will help date the knives. The prior owner and the knives themselves may be the best clues.

 

[navin74]

Nice photos Charlie. Thank you for posting these great knives.
Nathan

 

[Campbellclanman]

I would definitely say the Wooden one is older than the stag Bone, I love it when Jack comes in - we need him SO MUCH here!

The Kick certainly is the earlier on the Wooden Knife, as is the font of the Stamping & Stamp - Nice Line up Charlie! Interesting the slight difference in the Pin locations as well.

Tweedale has Lockwoods in trouble as a company in the 1930's after years of loss in the early 1930's shifting to Sylvester Street after being bought by Elliots, by 1933 the firms name had disappeared from local directories.
The Trademarks were bought by Elliot's after this - so the Sylvester street helping with location and a time? This is hard - as with limited information from the few reference books I have - this is what I gather from what Tweedale has recorded?

I also crossed referenced Elliot's at this time- Elliots ( led by Needham, Veall & Tyzack ) moved to Sylvester Street in the 1920's. Elliot's buying in Lockwood's prior to the 1930's to support the Lockwoods Business turned out to be a financial disaster and did not survive the depression of the 1930's. The firm survived the war period when purchased by J.G Elliot - and went on - in the 40's the firm of Elliots was small and modest and with the death of numerous Sheffield companies left little competition - although Elliots continued the Sylvester Works- there is no mention of Lockwoods Trademark after the 1930's? Geoffery Tweeddale's knowledge- not mine

So does this put Charlies in a time frame of the early 1930's?

This combined with what Jack said about the out-workings of the Companies

I think Im just going to throw my books away - because solid reference still does not nail down these things....:foot:

 

[Jack Black]

Thanks for the kind words Duncan I thought it miight be useful to move this (below) from the other thread, also citing Tweedale, but from the 2nd edition:

John Lockwood was apprenticed to John Burgin, becoming a Freeman with Hallamshire Company of Cutlers in 1767, when he was assigned the 'CX' mark. He had two sons, John Jnr and William. In 1803, already trading in Arundel Street, William married Ann Sorby, daughter of Thomas Sorby of Sheffield tool-makers Sorby, Hobson & Co. The 'Lockwood Brothers were the four sons of William and Ann - William, John, Joseph and Charles.

By 1837, Lockwood Bros were listed in Arundel Street and partnered by John Sorby & Sons in Spital Hill (at the opposite end of the city). The partnership was dissolved in 1844, with Lockwood Bros acquiring the Sorby marks and business. By 1861, the company claimed to employ 500 hands. In 1865, they further expanded their Arundel Street premises, and leased a portion of the nearby works of W & S Butcher, which still stands as Sterling Works (I should have a photo somewhere).

German counterfeiting of Lockwood knives caused the company to adopt the famous Pampas Rhea mark, with the words 'Pampa' and 'Real Knife' (a phrase which was used by other Sheffield cutlers). The main trade mark was 'C:X'. They also acquired other marks.

Three of the Lockwood Brothers died in the 1870's, but the firm remained one of Sheffield's leading tool and cutlery firms. In 1881, they employed 400 workers. A decade later, they moved to the old Sorby premises, and became a limited company (I recently posted photos of the Sorby premises as it stands today).

By WW1, Lockwood's were in decline, and in 1919, the firm became part of the Sheffield Cutlery Manufacturers Ltd, a group led by Needham, Neall, & Tyzack. This venture did not fare well though, and by 1927, Lockwood's marks and assets had been acquired by Joseph Elliot, who ran Lockwood Brothers as a stand-alone brand from their Sylvester Works.. Elliot's was wound up in 1998.

So, post-1927 - Unless it was older stock, acquired by Elliot's when they took over Lockwood's - I don't really think that though, just demonstrating how difficult it can be to date knives like this! - I sent Charlie a knife which has both Elliot and Lockwood marks!

It is possible that records of the order(s) for these knives may still exist, either in the archives held on Robert Young & Co Ltd (http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/c/F162885) or among the archives held by Sheffield Local Studies Library.

I wonder just how many of these knives were produced for Young's, clearly not just the NZ knives as the staggering coincidence of my friend's knife (found down the side of an old sofa in an English boarding house) shows.

 

[Jack Black]

I sent Charlie a knife which has both Elliot and Lockwood marks!

The tang-stamp on that knife actually looks quite similar to the NZ Ettricks.



Interestingly, Augie has a very similar knife with the H M Slater mark.

Jack, that Chris Johnson is a looker, wood and brass makes an attractive package. This is a H M Slater in wood and brass,

Slater's eventually ended up owning the Elliot/Lockwood marks. According to Tweedale, this was "After the 1960s". Tweedale also says that, during this period, Slater's premium knives were made by outworkers, including Stan Shaw, "and then stamped with Slater or other marks." I could ask Stan about the NZ Ettricks, but I think they almost certainly pre-date any work he did for Slaters. Maybe have a look inside the liners of your 'CC' knife Charlie, you never know! :thumbup:

 

[Campbellclanman]

This is Great Jack, I am looking at these knives of Charlies, and mine in front of me.... I have MUCH to learn, and with you coming in with this is an amazing help Jack - I pose these questions NOT to argue- but to continue this discussion because I have been trying to investigate lately as much as I can through reading in Levine's, Tweedale's, Goins..... and by looking carefully at the Font of the Stampings etc.

I love that knife with the Wooden Scales and both the Elliot CC marks and the Lockwood - that knife combining the History of the two great Cutlery companies is just awesome...I am going to refer to this knife as the " Elliot / Lockwood Knife".

I am looking at these however.....


Charlies Knives - the Stamping Font is different than the Elliot / Lockwwod Knife.
On Charlies Knives the Font of the Stamping C & X are deeper and heavier - a different styled font.

The pathetic Picture of what is a pretty good descriptive Font that are on Charlie's and my knives.....



The knives having their first taste of Mineral Oil.....

This is always something people go for- the knife has no "England" Stamped so therefore likely dates to the 1890's because of the American Tarrif act imposed in 1890's - but that does not necessarily mean knives that do not have England Stamped are pre 1892 etc...

I do believe Charlies and my knives to be 1930's???


The pins are Hammered and are Iron, the "Youngs Sheep Dips" is not acid etched, they are either Stamped slightly untidier OR Engraved ( I'm still studying that one...)

The Elliot / Lockwood Stamped knife has very clean and even font - and from what I can see Augies Slater has too- cant see if that knife has England Stamped on it - but could bet you it does as it is exactly the same as Jacks "combined stamped beauty".

Im going to stick my neck out and say that Jack is bang on by saying the Wooden Handled knife is Older - the Kick Style, The Font of the Stamping etc - and that knife has a slightly different Pinning pattern to it as well.....

If Bernard Levine was in front of us and asks....."Ok Duncan - give us your opinion on age on Charlie's knives"...I would say 1930's Sir" ( and then close my eyes and wait for the Cane to hit ).

Ok.... Charlie, Jack...that is my summary and takings from what we have discussed - Jack NO offence- this is me sticking my neck out - to
1,...get feedback and opinion and discussion and

2, To learn - with others input that will say- "no Duncan ...look at this and then look at that etc"...so I am exposing my opinion to learn.
I hope this makes sense?

Am I looking at this the right way - OR ...( you can tell me ) am I way off?

edited to try and make more sense

 

[Jack Black]

I'm getting a bit confused about all the stamps now! :thumbup:

The Stag Bone Knives of Charlies and mine I think from what I can gather and from what Jack has also supplied - if Bernard Levine was in front of us and asks....."Ok Duncan - give us your opinion on age"...I would say 1930's Sir" ( and then close my eyes and wait for the Cane to hit

LOL! :thumbup:

Duncan, with all your knowledge and experience, and the knives there in front of you, I think you are in the best position to judge my friend :thumbup:

 

[Campbellclanman]

Jack- I am sorry- my long extended way of trying to explain what I see about the stamps is confusing I do admit - Please read 400 times more

Jack - what I am trying - but not succeeding so well is - explain what I see so that can be dissected - I am going to edit my post a bit to try and make it ( slightly) Clearer....here goes......

 

[Jack Black]

Jack- I am sorry- my long extended way of trying to explain what I see about the stamps is confusing I do admit - Please read 400 times more

Jack - what I am trying - but not succeeding so well is - explain what I see so that can be dissected - I am going to edit my post a bit to try and make it ( slightly) Clearer....here goes......

No, it's not you Duncan, I get confused a lot these days! :thumbup:

 

[Campbellclanman]

I also edited the hand drawn picture as well Jack.

what I hate is ( and I know you better than this so all good ).. that I may come across as argumentative when trying to explore and discuss - hence my "dancing around the subject"
Jack my friend thank you for your patience, like I said in my HJ Thread, I hope to come back one day an go..." Oh No No No,,,,what was I thinking..." this will mean I have learnt

 

[Jack Black]

No patience needed at all Duncan, it's all good my friend, thanks for all your information and insight Just to clarify - my apologies - you think the New Zealand Ettricks are from the 1930's?