What is the point?

STeven, there is a lot more substance and constructive criticism on this forum than others and this make it much more interesting.

Thinking back to when you first started posting here, you have mellowed quite a bit :) Just keep doing what you do, man.

All Kumbaya is no fun :D
 
If I post something on the net for everyone to see and hopefully enjoy, I am aware that there may be as many or more who DO NOT appreciate the effort. Nobody enjoys critiques, but I certainly don't understand the angst once given.

Brett
 
STeven, don't change anything. You have probably dinged me as hard as anybody, mostly in person, right in front of me to my face nothing behind my back. with that said it is guys like you and Kevin that have forced me to either continually strive to get better or just decide to be a mediocre maker for the rest of my life. I firmly believe that what you have said to me anyway has done nothing but force me to get better. but with that said i have a pretty strong set of shoulders and if i didn't like what i had heard i would probablyh just ignor it anyway.l... keep it up. :)
 
Maybe we could ask for Kumbaya threads to be moved to the Gallery the way sharpening and fixing threads get moved from General?

I like both types of thread and don't like watching people getting their parades rained away when they're immensely stoked about something they just got or saw and also don't like watching earnest requests for ways to improve turn into "no, it's perfect, you're perfect. we're perfect," either. Maybe such crafty thread migrations would help?
 
This thread is interesting.

In broad sense, I see myself thinking like Steven. I'm one of those who think that no improvement ever comes from aggreement. That's somewhat of an exaggeration, but I see conflicts and disaggreements as hugely creative forces. In that, they are good things.

In some other ways, I act a lot like Jim. If someone post a knife I don't like, I *tend* not to comment on it, or at least not immediately. In large part, this is because life is too short, and I think I have better things to do with it. When I do comment on a knife, it's because I like some aspects and dislike others. That allows me to give a more nuanced view.

Of course some things drive me banana, like the cult following of some makers.
 
Erik Fritz said:
STeven, don't change anything. You have probably dinged me as hard as anybody, mostly in person, right in front of me to my face nothing behind my back......
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It is interesting that three makers in a row, who have been active on the Forums are saying that constructive criticism is a good, if not always comfortable thing…and we have all watched their work develop(and improve) over time….a contribution that everyone who is part of this community has made, even if a comment, was made to another person, who told another collector, who eventually said something to the maker.

One thing that heard a lot of is that we, at the Custom Forum, scare away makers….this may be true, but WHY are they scared away, and HOW have they gotten feedback(positive AND negative) about their work?….am of the opinion that feedback is crucial to the development of a maker’s work quality….and that the Forums are just another place to get that feedback….in other words….that is one of the points of the Forums.

Kevin Jones HAS taken a leadership role on the Forums, he starts threads that get us talking, and that is for the betterment of the Forums, imo.

I tried, years ago, to take a leadership role in constructive critique, because it seemed that we needed it here….and have a difficult time understanding how ”If I saw a knife posted that I didn't like, I would just not respond.”…helps ANYONE…it seems rather selfish…..it doesn’t matter if you have a negative opinion, just HAVE an opinion, and share it.

Best Regards,

STeven Garsson
 
Kohai999 said:
One thing that heard a lot of is that we, at the Custom Forum, scare away makers….this may be true, but WHY are they scared away, and HOW have they gotten feedback(positive AND negative) about their work?….am of the opinion that feedback is crucial to the development of a maker’s work quality….and that the Forums are just another place to get that feedback….in other words….that is one of the points of the Forums.
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Well, that editorial from the ABS magazine that you posted a while back is likely part of the problem there. There are those who have it as their agenda to demonize, trivialize and marginalize the forums.

Roger
 
Interesting
If we opened up more I wonder what would that begat?

I enjoy most the discussions on this forum..I enjoy looking at the knives..but There is a definite bias towards certain makers and a certain style of knife( forged blades for example).
That bias I'm sure influences makers on what style knives they make what materials they use etc... look at the proliferation of Hamons,offset fighter guards, recurves etc..

Its almost like a universal aesthetic is applied...

Now a maker has to eat..and a collector doesnt want to get burned...but Id like to see more variety and a willingness to embrace such efforts...

p.s I am as culpable as the next...
 
Frankly, my first impressions of you was a lewd megalomaniac, but I cut you some slack because I'm often too quick to judge people and I was intrigued as to why the moderators had not pulled your plug. That you were a fountain of knowledge was plain to see, but that is never enough for me. Then that fierce loyalty to friends piqued my admiration and revealed that you might be more than bluster. But what turned my head was the uncommon grace you displayed by reaching out to that fellow who had taken a stand against the utility of art bowies when the rest of us were shelling him unmercifully. Further, like David, I've noticed a mellowing that looks good on you. Combined these insights with your command of words and writing skills and I've unboycotted you and place you near the head of my must read list.

My only advice is do not underestimated the power of words to damage. With your gift with words you have inordinate power to maim. If you were as a kid raised in an environment of brutal, obscene words as I suspect, then pungent words bounce off you, likely numbing you to how radioactive words can be to people reared in docile worlds.

I agree with Don, the other knife forums I've seen are platitudes and drivel . . . boring. No kumbaya here please. I love lively discussions/debates with the full range of view points from all hands. My only rules are civility and good will. Constructive criticism is the hallmark of wisdom, not that all criticism is valid. If I post a picture of a knife I expect pro and con views. The last thing I want is to be patronized and led down the yellow brick road to Camelot. That said, I usually behave like Jim; if I have nothing good to say I say nothing unless invited to comment. A no-post can say more than a comment and preclude the chance of enmity.

Ken
 
Ken Williams said:
Frankly, my first impressions of you was a lewd megalomaniac, but I cut you some slack because I'm often too quick to judge people and I was intrigued as to why the moderators had not pulled your plug. That you were a fountain of knowledge was plain to see, but that is never enough for me. Then that fierce loyalty to friends piqued my admiration and revealed that you might be more than bluster. But what turned my head was the uncommon grace you displayed by reaching out to that fellow who had taken a stand against the utility of art bowies when the rest of us were shelling him unmercifully. Further, like David, I've noticed a mellowing that looks good on you. Combined these insights with your command of words and writing skills and I've unboycotted you and place you near the head of my must read list.

My only advice is do not underestimated the power of words to damage. With your gift with words you have inordinate power to maim. If you were as a kid raised in an environment of brutal, obscene words as I suspect, then pungent words bounce off you, likely numbing you to how radioactive words can be to people reared in docile worlds.

I agree with Don, the other knife forums I've seen are platitudes and drivel . . . boring. No kumbaya here please. I love lively discussions/debates with the full range of view points from all hands. My only rules are civility and good will. Constructive criticism is the hallmark of wisdom, not that all criticism is valid. If I post a picture of a knife I expect pro and con views. The last thing I want is to be patronized and led down the yellow brick road to Camelot. That said, I usually behave like Jim; if I have nothing good to say I say nothing unless invited to comment. A no-post can say more than a comment and preclude the chance of enmity.

Ken
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1. Lewd megalomaniac?:eek: That is beautiful! May have it tattooed on my leg this year...thanks! Really!

2. Brutal words, yes...toxic is more like it...add in a 4 year stint in the Navy and a 10 year tour in a street tattoo shop, and there is truly no way for me to ever feel the affect of words the way you are writing of the docile...but it has opened my eyes, and the others reading this thread..so again, thank you...a fine wordsmith you are, yourself.

3. Not everyone has to comment, BUT if we only say nice stuff, the person posting the picture gets a skewed vision/version of the truth, and everyone who says nothing is giving silence far more power in this sort of environment than it deserves. Silence is amazingly powerful in person-to-person interaction, but in Forums...it could just be a bad day to be on the internet.

Best Regards,

STeven Garsson
 
Ken Williams said:
Frankly, my first impressions of you was a lewd megalomaniac, but I cut you some slack because I'm often too quick to judge people and I was intrigued as to why the moderators had not pulled your plug. That you were a fountain of knowledge was plain to see, but that is never enough for me. Then that fierce loyalty to friends piqued my admiration and revealed that you might be more than bluster. But what turned my head was the uncommon grace you displayed by reaching out to that fellow who had taken a stand against the utility of art bowies when the rest of us were shelling him unmercifully. Further, like David, I've noticed a mellowing that looks good on you. Combined these insights with your command of words and writing skills and I've unboycotted you and place you near the head of my must read list.

I agree with Don, the other knife forums I've seen are platitudes and drivel . . . boring. No kumbaya here please. I love lively discussions/debates with the full range of view points from all hands. My only rules are civility and good will. Constructive criticism is the hallmark of wisdom, not that all criticism is valid. If I post a picture of a knife I expect pro and con views. The last thing I want is to be patronized and led down the yellow brick road to Camelot. That said, I usually behave like Jim; if I have nothing good to say I say nothing unless invited to comment. A no-post can say more than a comment and preclude the chance of enmity.

Ken
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I feel the same as you Mr. Williams, and I also say nothing if I have nothing complimentary to say. Also, you have stated it so eloquently:D

Peter
 
STeven and I discussed this on the phone, so he already knows most of what I'll say but I suppose it's just another maker's POV so I'll tack it on.

First off, it's impossible to not hurt somebody's feelings at some point....


So if we're really talking about constructive criticism here....


I think the big issue is in the approach and the motivation behind it.

If a collector, other maker, etc. GENUINELY sees the potential there for something even better and is trying to bring that out, then I think it's great... even if it is hard to swallow at first.


As a maker, I think you're best off to TRY to listen... And process... And take it for what it's worth. Sometimes a guy just won't like your style, and that's okay... so long as he's not a dick about it.

STeven and I went round and round a few different times when we first started talking knives. Sometimes I come around to at least appreciate what he's saying (even if I don't agree), and sometimes I actually implement it.

I showed him one of my first integrals that was like 95% done and (this part is key) ASKED HIM what he thought of it.

He said, "The handle is too long, but other than that I really like it."

I thought (and I think said out loud) "Fuq you, it is not."

But I took it home and started looking at it while setting on the kitchen table. Tried to take 29 steps back (not literally, lol)... and remove my personal feelings enough (you know, the ones that were built up over the 50 or so hours I had been working on the knife at that point!!! :) ) to look at the knife without bias. I realized he was right. The handle was too long.

I gritted my teeth and ground it down (FRONT END) because it had a pommel and pommel nut on the butt end.

IT MADE IT BETTER!



STeven's intentions had come to fruition. He was not trying to hurt my feelings.... he saw something good that could be better.

So how do STeven and the rest of you do that with other makers? Beats me!!! :D :p

The ones that want to get better will take it for what it's worth. The ones that think they're already "all that" probably won't.

And worth noting... It is best (IMHO) to offer that type of constructive criticism only if it's asked for. Otherwise it's 99% likely you're going to hurt feelings.

I still take some of it awfully personal... but please keep in mind it can be very hard not to when you're showing someone something you've got dozens of hours and all sorts of blood, sweat, and tears poured into.

I'd also like to give Kudos to Eric here... He is hungry to keep improving and he sucks up constructive criticism like a sponge and is always seeking ways of getting better. Good on 'ya my friend.:thumbup:
 
NickWheeler said:
So how do STeven and the rest of you do that with other makers? Beats me!!! :D :p

The ones that want to get better will take it for what it's worth. The ones that think they're already "all that" probably won't.

And worth noting... It is best (IMHO) to offer that type of constructive criticism only if it's asked for. Otherwise it's 99% likely you're going to hurt feelings.

I'd also like to give Kudos to Eric here... He is hungry to keep improving and he sucks up constructive criticism like a sponge and is always seeking ways of getting better. Good on 'ya my friend.:thumbup:
Click to expand...

Nick, it would help the context to provide a little background in this case.

Don Fogg recommended that I look at Nick's work...because he likes Nick as a person, and said that they had similar philosophies.

Nick has a real personable manner, and uses measured words, in person and in writing, as you can all see....so we became friendly over the phone, and I requested some pieces, and he made a nice damascus fighter that he was bringing to Reno in 2005, and I purchased it, and we talked quite a bit, including Don Fogg in a lot of the conversation...so he got to see what I was like around one of the people I admire the most.

We don't have to agree, but he knows that the respect is there, and the appreciation for his hard work.

That said, I still feel that posting a picture of your work on the Forums is an open invitation to commentary...otherwise, why would you post it at all?

Erik Fritz has been SUPERB about ingesting input from makers and collectors alike to make each piece better and more attractive.

Best Regards,

STeven Garsson
 
Kohai999 said:
That said, I still feel that posting a picture of your work on the Forums is an open invitation to commentary...otherwise, why would you post it at all?

STeven Garsson
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Because you want people to pat you on the butt and tell you that you rock their socks off!!! ;)

Sometimes you just want to "show" and not so much "tell" :D

I guess...:)
 
RogerP said:
If I were king of the world, tell you what I'd do, I'd make it so that the custom knife forum was a place for custom knife discussion. Posting a knife here would come with the expectation that it would be discussed - with participants expressing what they like and don't like about the knife in question.

If a participant just wanted to post a pic of a knife to show everyone and collect a healthy round of high-fives, the gallery would be for that.

I don't offer a lot of constructive criticism on-line - I do so quite a bit more off-line. I have had makers ask for my candid opinion on construction, materials, design and pricing of their knives and I have given it. The "problem" on the forums, as Jim correctly points out, is that not every maker and for sure not every collector who posts a knife is looking for meaningful feedback.

Roger
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The above makes a lot of sense to me. This is a forum for opinions, views and discussions on topics and examples shared. Posters should be willing to take the good with the bad as long as it's presented in a proper and respectable manner. If one is only willing to accept the good then there's probably better avenues such as forum galleries and photo sites to display their work and collections.
 
I am always amazed at the collective wisdom here. Very sharp comments!

This is an intensely personal experience, to aire in public our connection to our own visions of beauty- and for a knifemaker, posting photos of his craft. It can be rewarding and devastating,.. the stark truth- American idol contestants ALL think they can sing. (Steven, you are like Simon.) .. which is fine. I think you've developed a loveable crassness.


We all see something beautiful in what we love. I have concluded no matter how much refining i do, i have overiding, narrow, personal tastes- we pick what we like. Our eyes are different. I may never be able to appreciate the aesthetics of a subhilt fighter, dagger, one of Don Foggs bowies, or most any damascus knife the same as many here. BUT, we should aim not to underestimate anothers enjoyment and passion.

And, im guilty of taking it for granted, often that there is no right or wrong answer. Only something different for each person. There exists no ultimate truth, just each vision of it, as translated to each knifemaker, and varying degrees of skill. I wax philosophical..

I agree with Riad. We should encourage more diversity, exploration.

The most creative knife display I've ever seen was a collection of confiscated prison shivs. Every imaginable idea, put into service.

"Custom Shivs"- Sticking it to people everywhere, ... one felon at a time. ;)
David
 
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