What is the point?

I would hope that constructive criticism would be accepted for what it is, an attempt to help the other person. It is not being given as an insult, but instead it is meant to point out areas that the other person may not have noticed. Those that lash out at someone that has offered a thoughtful critique of something they made, or that they have added to their collection, are insecure and thinskinned. Too many people get defensive when there is no need for it. If you disagree with the criticism, then say so. At that point very useful dialogue can be entered into that can do nothing but help everyone involved.
 
I cant help but think that this is about me, as I did not take the input on my last knife very well for that, and to you Steven, I am sorry. And I would like to say that I was wrong in how I reacted. I do want to make my knives better and when I do post another one I would hope that you, Steven, and everyone else will tell me what you think.
With that said, as a new maker, I have and do put my heart and blood into my work and with that knife I had tried a lot of new things and when it was suggest that I should not bother with my own design and just copy Nick's well that broke my fucking heart.
 
In the very short time you have been here you have posted some outstanding knives. The one below for example. You have an eye for design, make some very good damascus patterns and your execution is impressive. No maker hits a homerun everytime. Will be looking forward to seeing more.

w-back.jpg
http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=521956
 
ah, we're a fallible lot. But good at learning!

If you really want to learn, there are a few things to remember:

1. Get over yourself

2. Be studious

3. Keep yourself open to humor, (from within and without...)

If you are posting a picture of a knife you either made, photographed, or 'collected' anywhere but in the classifieds here of BF, then you should accept that people will share their opinion because you are almost entitling them to air it. It's safe to assume that your posting is a request for feedback.

If you're too polite to post anything but, 'hey, great knife:thumbup:', or too rude to post anything but, 'hey, that knife sucks I hate it', well then your posts should generally be ignored. Asking about specifics regarding materials, design etc, and offering insight into how YOU, in particulars, perceive the knife pictured should be encouraged.

Opinions are like a$$holes, every one has one, but some smell more vile than others. Don't like the smell? Turn your nose up and move upwind. Clear your air.

Nobody in this forum has the market cornered on wisdom and knowledge. If you think you do, and that you are done learning, then you have your head up your ass. Which should be nobody else's problem but your own.
(speaking in general terms, I'm not referring to any one person here, btw.)

IMHO:yawn:
 
D lisch said:
I cant help but think that this is about me.......

With that said, as a new maker, I have and do put my heart and blood into my work and with that knife I had tried a lot of new things and when it was suggest that I should not bother with my own design and just copy Nick's well that broke my fucking heart.
Click to expand...

Dave,

It wasn't about you...the exchange with you was a small part of what I was thinking....but there have been much more recent examples of flat-out exchanged insults, on the Forums, and privately, as a result of things that were posted, by myself and others.

Since you brought it up.....was it intended as an insult? Hell, no!!!

See, I have watched Nick, AND Burt, AND Bruce ALL stumble with handles..they are really tough!!!...AND eventually, they all got to a place where they make it look effortless...it took quite a while....my suggestion was intended to help you take some shortcuts until you really found your own way....which you will.....FWIW, I saw mostly an influence of Ferry in your work, and HE will tell you that I just started liking his handles last year...and after 4 years of knowing each other, we are finally getting to a point where we can have some useful dialogue.

I have handled HUNDREDS of Big Bear style subhilts, by Loveless, and by countless other makers, and OFTEN you can FEEL that many of these makers have either never handled a Loveless, or have decided that they can do it better, and they almost never can.....to flat-out copy the Loveless Big Bear handle and pull it off is the real challenge, and very few do it well, and NO ONE shapes a handle for this type of knife BETTER than the Loveless shop, imo.

I have absolutely butchered handles both in working on my own stuff, and designing stuff for V-Tech knives, and suggestions from makers helped me greatly.....I go into most knife projects with the expectation that I will fully suck, and occasionaly, pleasant surprises of diminishing suckness make themselves known...as you are obviously persuing this with somewhat of a higher expectation of yourself......

tell me why what I wrote hurt you so much, because I really don't understand it, and I want to?

Best Regards,

STeven Garsson
 
hey Mr. Lisch: it's sometimes good to copy other people's stuff, as I'm sure you know, and I do know what you mean about feeling bummed about that particular thread. I don't think you should take those comments to heart, but more to mind. Not that I'm trying to tell anyone what to do or anything:o

I spent years in university trying to learn about art. I made my own, copied others and studied the history. If I ever felt confident about my art, then I was the last to know. It's one thing to make stuff for yourself, but when you're in the crucible, things change and the realization that you suck really is hard to bear. But I think it's a necessary step. The humility was always the best teacher for me. Critiques are hard on a guy, but that which fails to kill us makes us stronger...

I took the suggestion of you using Nick's handle design to mean two things; 1. Your blade was awesome, 2. Nick's handles are awesome. Combining the two in that piece might create something sublime.

Furthermore, just because you don't always hear the cheering, doesn't mean there aren't quite a few of us who are watching your work with keen interest.
I for one, think that you are making some very fine cutlery, are creating a fusion of art and craft, and feel that you are definitely going places with it.

Don't let the internets take the wind from your sails. You're on course brutha.

STeven; yer a salty dog! It's great to have you in the forum, (not exactly what I thought when I first joined up, but that was then;)I've learned a lot over the time I've spent here).
 
I only come here to see pretty knives and to watch STeven bust peoples balls. I like your cander, keep it up honesty is a rare thing in today's world.
 
If a person can't take thoughtful, constructive criticism, they shouldn't post photos of their knives.

The comments that bother me the most are the ones that state that if you don't make knives then you don't have the knowledge to criticize those that do. That's total BS.
 
Steven,
I do not know why I took that so hard but I see now that you where trying to help. I will have thicker skin in the future. And I have learned a good deal on this forum. And your right, a good handle takes some time to perfect. I will keep trying as I do have high goals for my knives. I might have gotten to close to that one, to get a good look at it. I am over it now. I look forward to meeting you. I hear you might be at OKC show, come by and say hi.
 
The phrase "constructive criticism" is often misapplied and misunderstood. Personally I avoid offering criticism of any kind in a public forum. My experience has been that if someone really cares to know what I think, they will contact me privately and I will respond privately. Public criticism of any kind is risky business because the average person is rarely equipped with the necessary skills and qualifications to pull it off successfully. I found the following discussion helpful in thinking about this topic:

"Constructive criticism is characterized by a compassionate attitude towards the person requesting criticism. Having greater experience, talent, respect, knowledge in a specific field and superior communication skills, this person is intending to uplift the other person materially, morally, emotionally or spiritually. For to be successful in his compassionate criticism the critic must be in some kind of healthy personal relationship with the other, as parent to child, friend to friend, teacher to student, spouse to spouse or any kind of recognized authority in a specific field.

In practical life destructive criticism may be disguised as constructive. Often destructive criticism comes from persons who are envious, cruel and judge without legitimate credibility or qualification to do so. Destructive disguised as constructive criticism can be a tool of antisocial behavior, and as such constitute a passive-aggressive attack.

Destructive criticism has the effect of harming, derogating and destroying someone’s creation, prestige, reputation and self-esteem. This may be done intentionally or out of sheer ignorance and foolishness but the effect is always destructive."
 
Reading all 50 posts (so far) on a thread like this one, makes opening the
BladeForums several times a day an intriguing and intellectual treat.

Thanks everyone!

All the best,
David Darom (ddd)
 
Well, as late as I am to this party, most of what I think has already been said.

Personally, I have gained a much finer appreciation of knives thanks to STeven's posts. Sometimes he puts into words what is bothering me that I can't quite put my finger on, but at the best of times he opens my eyes to aspects of things that totally went by me.

With that said, there are definitely times when he is a bucket of ice water at the orgy. Having met him, if only briefly, I don't see STeven as meaning to be as harsh as he sometimes seems. He was quite considerate both to me, and to the photographer I saw him dealing with. He does seem to have an exuberance that I find very rare these days and I think that may be part of what sets him at odds with some people.

I got to hear a recording of myself speaking at a party once and it was a great awakening. What I thought of as just giving my opinion and participating in a debate sounded like I was stating fact from on high. Just something in my voice that I had never been aware of made it sound like I was laying down the law. All I could think of was if it sounded like that to me, knowing that I didn't mean it that way, what did it sound like to everyone else? I have since tried to make sure I don't sound like that- with mixed success.

Some of STeven's posts remind me of how I sounded on that tape- "I think the guard is too small" may get a better a better reception than "The guard is too small". Of course, the reactions may not be as much fun to watch...
 
Buddy's (HTMD) post above has articulated the pitfalls and the science of 'constructive' criticism. It is both and art and a science. Thanks!

A few counter thoughts:

Keith: "If a person can't take thoughtful, constructive criticism, they shouldn't post photos of their knives"

This statement is filled with folly, as it is painting with such a wide brush. I would tell you that if each time I posted makers works and they were subjected to the subjective scrutiny of the members, they WOULD tell me to not post the photos. There's a dead end.

There is a time and a place for these actions. It's when the poster has asked for comments both good and bad. That's what I think.

To be sure, I enjoy the critiques. You think that having handled a gazillion knives I don't have style and F&F knowledge and negative opinions?? You bet. Well before I became a noted knife businessman, I posted on public email lists and forums. I had the same style as I do now. I am NOT Kumbaya only because of my business. It happens to work especially well because of this. It is how I attempt to model many things in my life. I've experienced negative energy lurking behind good intentions and how cancerous it can become.

I once commented on a makers handle construction with a query on hidden pins. HE construed the dialog as if I was declaring his work unsuitable and openly calling him out. It went spiraling downward even though we went to PM and a phone call. In the end, there was little positive experience and a LOT of angst. So easily misconstrued. A mistake I don't want to degrade my forum time with again.

I also spent 20 years hanging around drag strips and working in a motorcycle shop. To think our ears are accustomed and numb to profane language is silly. Only an imbecile can't tell the difference.

Now all this said, I think it is smart to bring these discussions out in the open, so when the occurrence does happen, we are more prepared to recognize the positive side of critique.

Thanks to ALL for the good thoughts and honest dialog.

Coop
 
First, define what constructive criticism is. Isn't it only in the mind of the critic?... and maybe a few others who agree.

Just because someone offers what he thinks may be constructive criticism and may help,... doesn't necessarily make that person right, or the criticism valid.

There are always two sides to every issue. That's where discussion comes in.

Steven,… I personally think you are obsessed with yourself,... and vacillate between the extremes of your opposing natures which makes you a difficult person to read,... and incapable of "constructive criticism". I mean that constructively... and think you fully deserve the attention. :D
 
ddd said:
Reading all 50 posts (so far) on a thread like this one, makes opening the
BladeForums several times a day an intriguing and intellectual treat.
David Darom (ddd)
Click to expand...

On target and firing for effect! :thumbup:

I would HOPE that the reason people spend time here is to improve their knowledge about collecting/building custom knives AND to have their thinking on the subject stimulated and challenged in a relatively polite and intelligent manner.

Critical thinking requires effort. All critcism is not created equal. All opinions are NOT equally valid. You have to weigh the words against the credibility of the source. Sometimes you may actually have to make JUDGEMENTS about makers and collectors :eek:. Welcome to the real world. Have fun and play nice!

P
 
Coop, when you post photos of knives it is your work that I tend to look at with a critical eye, not the knives.

When makers post photos of kives they have made, I think they should expect comments about the knife. I would hope that they wouldn't be wanting everyone to pile praise on the work done, even if there are elements that shouldn't be praised.

Tai, I do think that most of the time criticism is really a person presenting his/her personal opinion. At other times I believe that it can point to real problems in the way the knife was made. I agree that because there can definitely be opposing thoughts on a knives constuction and design that a discussion can lead to a better understanding for everyone involved.

What should people do when someone posts photos? Should they refrain from pointing out areas that they find unappealing? Should they only post nice things so as not to hurt the other persons feelings? Should they offer their vewpoint, tempered with a comment about how it is just their opinion? What is the proper etiquette?
 
Tai Goo said:
Steven,… I personally think you are obsessed with yourself,... and vacillate between the extremes of your opposing natures which makes you a difficult person to read,... and incapable of "constructive criticism". I mean that constructively... and think you fully deserve the attention. :D
Click to expand...

If I am obsessed by ANYTHING, Tai...it is knives...it is hard to engage you in discussion, your most recent exchanges with Cashen make that abundantly clear, so we will leave it at that.

Best Regards,

STeven Garsson
 
Keith Montgomery said:
Tai, I do think that most of the time criticism is really a person presenting his/her personal opinion. At other times I believe that it can point to real problems in the way the knife was made. I agree that because there can definitely be opposing thoughts on a knives constuction and design that a discussion can lead to a better understanding for everyone involved.
Click to expand...

Precisely.

Keith Montgomery said:
What should people do when someone posts photos? Should they refrain from pointing out areas that they find unappealing?
Click to expand...

No.

Keith Montgomery said:
Should they only post nice things so as not to hurt the other persons feelings?
Click to expand...

No.

Keith Montgomery said:
Should they offer their vewpoint, tempered with a comment about how it is just their opinion? What is the proper etiquette?
Click to expand...

Here's the rub. If a modicum of effort is put into presenting the critique in a supportive fashion, this will go a long way toward negating the knee-jerk response of anger / defensiveness by the recipient. I haven't kept statistics, or anything, but my perception is that the vast bulk of what is offered as constructive criticism IS a statement of opinion reflective of given person's personal preferences. That isn't to say that such opinions are without value, but rather to say that making is clear that you are expressing an opinion will generally make for smoother sailing. Some will dismiss this as pandering to political correctness, while others will applaud it as representative of basic courtesy and thoughtfulness.

I have seen all too many categorical pronouncements on the forums of late that seem utterly dismissive of even the possible existence of a different viewpoint. This will often lead to lively pass-the-popcorn discussions, but those are the very kind that the forum-detractors will hold up as evidence of why makers should stay the heck away.

Roger
 
Kohai999 said:
If I am obsessed by ANYTHING, Tai...it is knives...it is hard to engage you in discussion, your most recent exchanges with Cashen make that abundantly clear, so we will leave it at that.

Best Regards,

STeven Garsson
Click to expand...


O.K. so you don't like my debating style either.

Hey! It works for me. :D
 
Keith Montgomery said:
Tai, I do think that most of the time criticism is really a person presenting his/her personal opinion. At other times I believe that it can point to real problems in the way the knife was made. I agree that because there can definitely be opposing thoughts on a knives constuction and design that a discussion can lead to a better understanding for everyone involved.

What should people do when someone posts photos? Should they refrain from pointing out areas that they find unappealing? Should they only post nice things so as not to hurt the other persons feelings? Should they offer their vewpoint, tempered with a comment about how it is just their opinion? What is the proper etiquette?
Click to expand...

I agree with Buddy, but often find it hard to control myself! :D

"The phrase "constructive criticism" is often misapplied and misunderstood. Personally I avoid offering criticism of any kind in a public forum. My experience has been that if someone really cares to know what I think, they will contact me privately and I will respond privately. Public criticism of any kind is risky business because the average person is rarely equipped with the necessary skills and qualifications to pull it off successfully. I found the following discussion helpful in thinking about this topic:" HTMD
 
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