What is the smallest caliber you trust to protect yourself?

Colt 1911 Delta Elite 10mm it shoots 200 grainers getting close to 1300 fps. Check out the stats on this caliber i shoot double tap or buffalo bore ammo. This stuff also has way more foot pounds of thump compared to alot of the different calibers in a 1911 platform. I don't think it recoils anymore than a 45apc myself. I've got one for each hand that should do it. Oh yeah and another one of your great stories Skunk. :thumbup::D
 
Skunk, I'm sorry I put off reading this because it was gun-related and I don't get to play with guns in NYC
I'm glad I changed my mind :tears_of_joy:
 
When legally able to do so, my general carry is a Kimber Ultra Raptor II, my woods gun is a Glock 20.
 
9mm or .38 Special is as small as I go for CCW. However any gun is better than no gun, so if those are too big that you wont carry it regularly then get something you will.
 
...
Whatever you carry, practice practice practice practice practice and then practice some more.....

Excellent advice.
Apart from my full time job, I've been working part time at my buddy's gunshop for years.
We sell many handguns for protection, many more recently now that the area where I live has been going to hell.
Anyone who has ever worked in a gunshop knows that some customers "know better" and they can't be told otherwise, so I've learned not to even waste my breath with those folks. I just politely nod and smile. But when a customer comes in and asks my advice on caliber selection for protection I tell them not to get too wrapped around the axle on caliber size. Any handgun round is underpowered when compared to a rifle and shot placement is especially critical with a handgun. If 9mm will allow the customer to afford more ammo for practice over .40 or .45, then I recommend 9mm.

.380s have become very popular, though 9mm is still our biggest seller.

That said, I do think there is a cut-off. I generally don't recommend .22 or .25 for protection but it is certainly better than nothing. Can they work in the right hands and in the right circumstances? Absolutely and its been proven.


My personal carry is a Glock 26 (9mm) and I'm confident with this caliber and handgun selection.
 
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I guess it depends on what you mean by defend.

For a walk in the woods (around here where I'm not likely to encounter anything more than a snake), then a .22 is fine, but for a walk "in town", then for me a 9mm is my minimum.
 
Glock 27 Gen 4 .40 cal in a Crossbreed Snapslide holster. Trust my life to it everyday!
 
Hey, lets not make to much fun of the Jetfire. I've got one in .25ACP in my pocket right now.
I carry plenty of others at times, but this little 950 Jetfire is almost always on me.
 
Got my ole lady a LCP for xmas, Ive been carrying it for the last 3 days and love it :D

Great story Skunk.

Merry xmas everyone!
 
7.65 mm; its like a brick through a plate glass window...

Whatever the hell that means:)

Actually though, I do carry a Keltec P32 about 99% of my awake time. I know it's limitations and drill regularly with it. I am comfortable that it would serve me well.
 
LMAO
A .22 in the pocket is better than the .45 in the drawer at home. I call them "nose" guns. I'll get you close enough to shove up your nose and empty it.

Bob
 
While there is no doubt that shot placement is much more important than caliber, the stopping power idea is not BS. It is very real, but it is more a combination of momentum AND Energy, not just momentum. A 45 is excellent for stopping power, but so is a 357 and they are two completely opposing schools of thought. In the end, just about all handguns are because you could not carry a long gun. A person who can shoot dimes with a 22lr is much more lethal than a person who can't hit a garage door with a 44 mag. However, there has been many scenarios where the round was just not powerful enough to provide minimal penetration to kill an opponent. This is usually in combat situations in military or police engagements, not civilian. For civilian use I would say use whatever you are most proficient with. A 380 or 38 special makes a fine defensive weapon. Heck a 32 acp is fine as well. Especially considering that most shootings occur in less than 7-10 yards.

I remember an interesting test done against a 1978 cadillac deville. Big huge massive car. They stuck a dummy in the front seat with a bullet proof vest. The goal was to shoot through the door and hit the dummy. They started with a 38spcl, then 9mm, then 45, then 357 and 44 mag. The only one to actually penetrate the door was the 44 mag, but it did not have even enough energy left to break the skin of the vest. Then they went to rifle rounds. Starting with 223. The 223 did the exact same thing as the 44 mag except it fragmented. Funny thing is that both the 223 and 44 mag have similar muzzle energies. They then went to the AK round, 7.62x39. That round did much better. It actually went into the bullet proof vest, but would not have incapacitated the person as it did not penetrate through the vest. The final round was another military round 308/7.62x51. It went through the car door, through one side of the vest, through the dummy, out the other side of the vest and through the other car door and was not recovered. Way over penetration. That is why, you see rounds these days like 6.8spc or 6.5 grendel. Those rounds were created to have something between the 7.62x39 and the 7.62x51 since the difference between those two is gigantic.

But the point of all that is that you need to know your limitations as well as your guns limitations. If I have a 22, I won't be wasting rounds shooting through a door or even heavy clothing. Also a slightly smaller caliber isn't always easier shooting. 9mm can be harder to shoot for some people than a 40 or 45. Smaller guns and the twist created by the round has an effect. I have heard lots of people complain about the 9mm wanting to twist the gun in their hands. I never hear that about the 40 or 45.

Having said all that crap, I am really interested in Kel-tecs new 22 magnum handgun that holds 30 rounds in one mag. Sounds like an awesome varmint gun. :D


Great story!

As to the handgun question...........guys, I'm going to hurt feelings when I say this, but "stopping power" as it's sold in the gun world is a wonderful gimmick to fill gun magazine pages with. Everyone loves to tout the old story about the army using Colt .38 revolvers unsuccessfully in the Phillipines against charging, kris-wielding warriors and how, from that moment, the Army knew it had to get back into a 45 caliber pistol. That's true. What NEVER gets told is how, even though the 1911 pistol was only in its design phase, they got a whole mess of .45 handguns sent to them there during the fighting (many, many old 45 Colt SAAs still in the federal arsenals) and you know what? They didn't stop the guys worth anything either! When shot while running from ten feet away, the incoming warriors had a horrible habit of splitting a soldier's head open with their large blade and then dying shortly afterwards, just like they did when hit with the 38 Colt. The reliable means of stopping them was shooting them when they were farther away, which usually was done with the rifles. It's a fact, people, look it up---only look it up in a book, not a magazine trying to sell you Gold Dots. ;)

Now, am I saying that handguns are useless? No. Am I saying that a 45 doesn't hit any harder than a 38? No. What I'm saying is that NONE of them are the Hammer of Thor. You're hitting somebody with something which weighs significantly less than an ounce. Fast as it is, it can only impart so much impulse to them. All the movies you've seen where guys are shot with a 44 magnum (yes, I love Dirty Harry too) and go flying backwards are absolutely entertaining and absolute crap. Here's proof, and a fun experiment:
--Take a 44 magnum, take a pumpkin, and a 1/4" steel plate to your local range.
--Make a horizontal cut from the top down into the pumpkin with a knife and insert the steel plate down into it.
--Leave steel-reinforced pumpkin down range and walk back to your gun, preferably at least 25 yards away.
--Shoot steel plate inside pumpkin (if you haven't figured this out, the pumpkin is there to hold the plate up and also to catch any small fragments of bullet which separate off from hitting the plate).
--Notice that the plate and pumpkin, which together weigh about twenty pounds, shifted just a few inches further away from you....they didn't go flying off into the sunset.
--Understand that if this fairly healthy handgun cartridge couldn't move twenty pounds of steel and pumpkin a foot, they're not going to move a 200 pound man more than an inch or two.

That, again, doesn't mean they're useless. Real stopping power comes from shot placement. Disable the electrical responses of the body, by either destroying the brain or spinal column, OR destroy the physical structure of the body to an extent that, regardless of willpower or drugs or adrenaline, it's impossible for the system to continue functioning and moving forward (pelvis/hips no longer fit together because the joint is in fragments). Being able to hit where you're trying to hit, consistently, when you're scared to death and your own adrenaline is up, is the key. A guy who has practiced like holy hell with his Ruger MkIII 22 and can punch shot after shot into the areas he needs to when the chips are down, is WAY better armed than the guy with the 45 who can barely stay on paper when he has hearing protection, eye protection, and perfect lighting on an orange target in a nice shooting range. Now, larger calibers create larger wound channels, and you absolutely gain some probability of peripheral damage helping you out and hitting something that your bullet passed by; but again, you have to able to get close in the first place when it counts, and that comes from either luck or a LOT of practice.

If you shoot a 45 very, very well and are so familiar with your gun that it's an intuitive instrument to you that you don't have to think about at all, then great. If you can't afford to practice 45 to get to (and maintain) that level, then a 9mm that you shoot extremely well beats the hell out of that 45 you practice with four times a year. Thousands of gunfights were won in the old west with .36 caliber black powder revolvers which where shooting balls of the same weight as a modern 380 bullet at FAR lower velocity, and I promise you, today's lazy, TV watching crowd is NOT tougher than our ancestors of the 19th century who walked everywhere and actually worked for a living--they carried a lot more muscle and a lot less fat. The difference is that back in the day, people tended to be much better shots because of their lifestyle--there wasn't even weapons training up through the first World War in the United States, it was just assumed you knew how to shoot.

I carry a 1911 Commander or a full sized Glock in 45 (depending on attire) because I've put more thousands rounds through those guns than everything else combined, but it's the familiarity/ability that makes me effective with them, not the caliber. If all I have is a 22, I'm still better armed than the vast majority of people--not because of innate skill (my sisters both have more of that than I do) but because of the countless boring hours spent getting good.

Whatever you carry, practice practice practice practice practice and then practice some more. If you come across somebody who feels that he's better armed than you because his number is bigger and his bullets were featured in last month's Guns and Ammo, you can pretty safely assume that he is probably not very good, regardless of the awesomeness of his equipment. You can give a crappy violinist a Stradivarius, but don't expect fine music.
 
Great story!

As to the handgun question...........guys, I'm going to hurt feelings when I say this, but "stopping power" as it's sold in the gun world is a wonderful gimmick to fill gun magazine pages with. Everyone loves to tout the old story about the army using Colt .38 revolvers unsuccessfully in the Phillipines against charging, kris-wielding warriors and how, from that moment, the Army knew it had to get back into a 45 caliber pistol. That's true. What NEVER gets told is how, even though the 1911 pistol was only in its design phase, they got a whole mess of .45 handguns sent to them there during the fighting (many, many old 45 Colt SAAs still in the federal arsenals) and you know what? They didn't stop the guys worth anything either! When shot while running from ten feet away, the incoming warriors had a horrible habit of splitting a soldier's head open with their large blade and then dying shortly afterwards, just like they did when hit with the 38 Colt. The reliable means of stopping them was shooting them when they were farther away, which usually was done with the rifles. It's a fact, people, look it up---only look it up in a book, not a magazine trying to sell you Gold Dots. ;)

Now, am I saying that handguns are useless? No. Am I saying that a 45 doesn't hit any harder than a 38? No. What I'm saying is that NONE of them are the Hammer of Thor. You're hitting somebody with something which weighs significantly less than an ounce. Fast as it is, it can only impart so much impulse to them. All the movies you've seen where guys are shot with a 44 magnum (yes, I love Dirty Harry too) and go flying backwards are absolutely entertaining and absolute crap. Here's proof, and a fun experiment:
--Take a 44 magnum, take a pumpkin, and a 1/4" steel plate to your local range.
--Make a horizontal cut from the top down into the pumpkin with a knife and insert the steel plate down into it.
--Leave steel-reinforced pumpkin down range and walk back to your gun, preferably at least 25 yards away.
--Shoot steel plate inside pumpkin (if you haven't figured this out, the pumpkin is there to hold the plate up and also to catch any small fragments of bullet which separate off from hitting the plate).
--Notice that the plate and pumpkin, which together weigh about twenty pounds, shifted just a few inches further away from you....they didn't go flying off into the sunset.
--Understand that if this fairly healthy handgun cartridge couldn't move twenty pounds of steel and pumpkin a foot, they're not going to move a 200 pound man more than an inch or two.

That, again, doesn't mean they're useless. Real stopping power comes from shot placement. Disable the electrical responses of the body, by either destroying the brain or spinal column, OR destroy the physical structure of the body to an extent that, regardless of willpower or drugs or adrenaline, it's impossible for the system to continue functioning and moving forward (pelvis/hips no longer fit together because the joint is in fragments). Being able to hit where you're trying to hit, consistently, when you're scared to death and your own adrenaline is up, is the key. A guy who has practiced like holy hell with his Ruger MkIII 22 and can punch shot after shot into the areas he needs to when the chips are down, is WAY better armed than the guy with the 45 who can barely stay on paper when he has hearing protection, eye protection, and perfect lighting on an orange target in a nice shooting range. Now, larger calibers create larger wound channels, and you absolutely gain some probability of peripheral damage helping you out and hitting something that your bullet passed by; but again, you have to able to get close in the first place when it counts, and that comes from either luck or a LOT of practice.

If you shoot a 45 very, very well and are so familiar with your gun that it's an intuitive instrument to you that you don't have to think about at all, then great. If you can't afford to practice 45 to get to (and maintain) that level, then a 9mm that you shoot extremely well beats the hell out of that 45 you practice with four times a year. Thousands of gunfights were won in the old west with .36 caliber black powder revolvers which where shooting balls of the same weight as a modern 380 bullet at FAR lower velocity, and I promise you, today's lazy, TV watching crowd is NOT tougher than our ancestors of the 19th century who walked everywhere and actually worked for a living--they carried a lot more muscle and a lot less fat. The difference is that back in the day, people tended to be much better shots because of their lifestyle--there wasn't even weapons training up through the first World War in the United States, it was just assumed you knew how to shoot.

I carry a 1911 Commander or a full sized Glock in 45 (depending on attire) because I've put more thousands rounds through those guns than everything else combined, but it's the familiarity/ability that makes me effective with them, not the caliber. If all I have is a 22, I'm still better armed than the vast majority of people--not because of innate skill (my sisters both have more of that than I do) but because of the countless boring hours spent getting good.

Whatever you carry, practice practice practice practice practice and then practice some more. If you come across somebody who feels that he's better armed than you because his number is bigger and his bullets were featured in last month's Guns and Ammo, you can pretty safely assume that he is probably not very good, regardless of the awesomeness of his equipment. You can give a crappy violinist a Stradivarius, but don't expect fine music.

I understand where you're coming from. My Brother has been trying to convince me to get a 1911. I've shot only 7 rounds through his. I got a great deal on a .357 magnum, and have put off making the decision, .45 vs other auto.
I feel confident that I can hit a person with my 9mm or the .357, but lack the precision to hit exact spots on moving targets. I guess I've never shot a .22lr pistol enough to know how accurate I am, much less at a moving target. I know that I'll hit them, but exactly where? I feel that the .357 magnum would give me a better chance at making the attacker stop his actions. Bigger hole, more damage and blood loss are hopefully the result.
Does a .22lr, .32 auto, or .380 have what it takes to take out the pelvis? By this, I mean a running attacker, can one shot from a small .22lr handgun make them drop due to pain or a mechanical failure. Will the .22lr "shatter" the pelvis or lodge the bullet in there or bounce off. What experiences do you guys have in this realm? Outside of shooting human analogs, ie pigs or ballistic gel over synthetic bones, how does one determine what their caliber will do?
That's part of the problem, the lack of direct experience with real world ballistics. The medical examiner sees a dead body, but may not know how long the guy kept fighting. The military doesn't do autopsies on their enemies, so we just hear stories (as civilians) about the handgun calibers.
Between You Tube ballistics "experts", magazine ads, old war stories, etc.. it's hard to know what to accept. Shot placement is king, but real world gun fights, adrenaline pumping, a dark alleyway with a moving target, and quick targeting will not allow me to be as accurate as I am at the range. So, I'm going to carry the largest caliber that I can a) shoot well b) afford to practice with and c) have confidence in stopping an attack.
 
I like the .357 Mag,.45 ACP,and 9MM,in that order.So,I guess 9MM would be the smallest that I would rely on to protect me and my family.38 Special+P loads would work for me also.
 
I traded in my 950 Jetfire on a Model 21, double action .22 Lr, get's lost in my pocket, but its always there.
 
Against people when concealment is important? 9mm.
Against people when concealment is less important, and against animals other than bears? .45
Against bears? Bear spray first, .44 magnum secondarily.
 
everyone reacts differently to gun shot wounds. Some fight, others run, regardless of the round. Any gunfight you get into will be so close that you are likely to need to worry about the knife you don't see as well. Breaking a pelvis is nice, if you have the time to aim, but chances are you will not. remember this video. cop vs bad guy at 12=15 feet and they both miss. that's reality:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wi5kj-krgso
 
This is the same scenario as which knife will you carry when your in a survival situation, "It's the one you have on you". If you carry a .22 know how to use it, if you carry a 9mm again, know how to use it. Strictly going by Skunks, "My personal favorite defense gun" , I say my 12 ga. That's what's in my hand more than all others. I have .22, 9's, .40's, .44s but the gun I carry the most is my 12 ga. The true question is Urban or in the woods:p!!!

Skunk, I like the knee cap approach:D!!!
 
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