what is wrong with guys today?

my heart hurts when i see a custom sell on auction for less than I think it should have sold for. to me the only rare knife is a custom knife. why? i feel custom makers create one of a kind works of art in every knife they make like take 2 knives of the same from the same maker put them side by side from a distance they look the same and in the makers eyes they may very well be. but i know from a buyers stand point. they are different because i know the maker is not a machine and if you could break those knives down to the last molecule there would be something different between them that sets them apart and really makes them that rare one of a kind works of art:thumbup:
 
i for one have the upmost respect for custom makers to me any person who takes a raw slab of steel and spends hours behind a grinder or hot coals transforming that steel into a thing of beauty and who puts his heart and soul into every inch of the process deserves all the respect in the world. and they will get it from me every time some people do not realize the degree of talent that is involved in the man behind the blade, :thumbup::thumbup:
 
In my opinion which doesn't count for nothing anyway, the real reason that so many people are collecting everything from high end productions down to Rough Rider chinese knives is simply this. THERE ARE SO MANY OF THESE KNIVES AVAILABLE!!!!
The more of any item offered the more people want it. Why? Because we all want to keep up with the Jones. If someone else has one and are all aglow about it, we automatically think we need one too.
I've made custom knives for almost 20 years and am still an unknown maker. Why? BECAUSE THERE ARE NOT ENOUGH OF MY KNIVES OUT THERE TO GAIN POPULAR ATTENTION.
Also, auciton shows like smkw, cutlery corner, and Sat. knife and gun sell these type of knives all the time and have thousands of viewers. What people see selling on these shows people think they have to have.
Does this make it wrong for people to collect production knives? Absolutely not! Even the cheap Rough Rider type of knives. Why? Maybe that is all they can afford. Maybe that is where their interest is. Or maybe a host of other reasons.
Fact is, no matter how important we may think we are, or how good we may think or know our custom knives to be, it's ultimately the customer who will decide what they like and what they will buy.
Me, I prefer handmades. Am I going to look down my nose at someone who collects $8.99 Rough Riders or some other cheap production knife. NO!
Just my 2 cents.
 
OK, I know I'm going to regret this, but here is what I'm taking away. According to the posts in this thread, custom knives have:

  • More character
  • A person/relationship behind the knife (who you can talk to, become friends with, etc.)
  • "Original authorship" (i.e., not a mass produced copy of 1000s)
  • The "heart and soul" of the knifemaker
  • Infinitely customizable features
  • A unique feel
  • Characteristics that rightfully classify them as functional art
  • A higher likelihood of holding their market value

See, I get it. ;)

Now, I agree with many of these points, that's why I've bought and continue to buy custom knives. However, nobody has yet dealt with the issue I first raised, that with a high end production knife your likelihood of a perfectly executed knife is higher than with a custom knife. I'm not asking if that should be your most valued attribute of a knife (that is subjective), but simply stating the point. Thanks for listening. :)

- Mark
 
A Vast Majority Of The American Consumers Are Sheep That Are Controlled By The Big Money In This Nation. In My Humble Opinion; If You Buy Something As Important As A Knife That Is Made In A Chinese Prison Cell, You Are A Part Of The Current Problem In America. Buy American Made Products! It Is As Simple As That. If You Choose To Continue To Buy Offshore Junk, You Are A Closet Communist. Not To Mention Some Fat Cat Sitting Back Reaping Big Profit From Something He Had Made Overseas For Very Cheap & Selling It To You For Top Dollar Because He Can. Wake Up!
You Can't Afford Not To Invest In Your Own Country.
 
Mark J said:
OK, I know I'm going to regret this, but here is what I'm taking away. According to the posts in this thread, custom knives have:

  • More character
  • A person/relationship behind the knife (who you can talk to, become friends with, etc.)
  • "Original authorship" (i.e., not a mass produced copy of 1000s)
  • The "heart and soul" of the knifemaker
  • Infinitely customizable features
  • A unique feel
  • Characteristics that rightfully classify them as functional art
  • A higher likelihood of holding their market value

See, I get it. ;)

Now, I agree with many of these points, that's why I've bought and continue to buy custom knives. However, nobody has yet dealt with the issue I first raised, that with a high end production knife your likelihood of a perfectly executed knife is higher than with a custom knife. I'm not asking if that should be your most valued attribute of a knife (that is subjective), but simply stating the point. Thanks for listening. :)

- Mark
Click to expand...


That's not neccessarily true though. With proper control, the big company may turn out "perfect knives". There are a lot of big name companies that don't emphasize that though. A custom maker can check spring tensions on each knife he turns out. The big companies program a machine to make the springs. It is true that it is possible for the big company to have a machine that would check the tension but that would add cost to the end product. The same goes for finish. A custom maker can inspect the knife for any scratches that are visible with a 600 grit hand finish. It is possible that a machine can finish to 600 grit but in order to ensure each blade has no scratches you would have to pay someone which would add to the price of the end product. If you add all the checks and balances to a mass production cycle, the end price would be much higher. It may still be lower than a custom maker's price but that is only due to the fact that they have the upfront capital in order to pay for machinery, human capital, etc. I think it depends on how many things go into the production of the knife. When I buy a factory knife, even a nice one, you can see certain things that a custom maker can make better. An example of this can be bolster to handle material seams. I can see the minor flaws that a machine will always make but a custom maker will fix. So I guess my answer is yes, you will get a more consistent knife from machines, but if the consistency means that attention to detail will suffer, then you are not necessarily getting consistently well made knives, you may be getting consistently missed errors. I put it like this: A cd will consistently play a song the same. It is true that when compared, a musician could play the song worse than a cd, but it is also true that they may play it better by fixing things they errored on in the cd. That is what I believe is the difference between people who make knives and proffesional knife makers. Pros do it better than the machine every single time. Just my 2 cents. (or 2000 cents..lol)
 
RSMITH said:
A Vast Majority Of The American Consumers Are Sheep That Are Controlled By The Big Money In This Nation. In My Humble Opinion; If You Buy Something As Important As A Knife That Is Made In A Chinese Prison Cell, You Are A Part Of The Current Problem In America. Buy American Made Products! It Is As Simple As That. If You Choose To Continue To Buy Offshore Junk, You Are A Closet Communist. Not To Mention Some Fat Cat Sitting Back Reaping Big Profit From Something He Had Made Overseas For Very Cheap & Selling It To You For Top Dollar Because He Can. Wake Up!
You Can't Afford Not To Invest In Your Own Country.
Click to expand...

RSMITH, I have a question, if you don't mind. What brand of computer do you use to post here?
 
I want to know what brand of keyboard that auto-caps each word.

Honestly though, buying Chinese stuff today is no different than what we've been doing for the last 50 years or better. The countries shift around and so do the products.

When is the last time you heard of someone buying a suit made in the U.S.? 1940? They've been migrating around third world countries since the 50's at least. Sri Lanka, Japan, Chile, Mexico, China, Korea, Indonesia... wherever the cheap labor and materials are, there have been suits made for the past 50 years or better.

The truth is, we don't have a self-sustaining economy. If you really want Americans to keep their jobs you need to focus on domestic export production, something that we do not do. We are the world's consumer's, not the world's producers. To keep money in America, you need to build an export economy.

As far as political affiliations go, I'm more like a laissez-faire capitalist, which allows me to buy and sell "cheap Chinese junk" without caring about the proletariat. Combined with my middle-class income and lifestyle, I believe I am placed solidly in the bourgeoisie and thus in direct opposition with communism.

Resisting globalization and supporting local labor both seem to be actual communist tendencies. As is resisting "fat cats". Cheap laborers doing the work for "fat cats" is exactly what the communist manifesto argues against...
 
Mark J said:
OK, I know I'm going to regret this, but here is what I'm taking away. According to the posts in this thread, custom knives have:

  • More character
  • A person/relationship behind the knife (who you can talk to, become friends with, etc.)
  • "Original authorship" (i.e., not a mass produced copy of 1000s)
  • The "heart and soul" of the knifemaker
  • Infinitely customizable features
  • A unique feel
  • Characteristics that rightfully classify them as functional art
  • A higher likelihood of holding their market value

See, I get it. ;)

Now, I agree with many of these points, that's why I've bought and continue to buy custom knives. However, nobody has yet dealt with the issue I first raised, that with a high end production knife your likelihood of a perfectly executed knife is higher than with a custom knife. I'm not asking if that should be your most valued attribute of a knife (that is subjective), but simply stating the point. Thanks for listening. :)

- Mark
Click to expand...

I guess it depends on what you consider perfectly executed. If its just mechanical precision then yes, a machine will obviously be more consistant at grinding plunge lines than a human. But there are custom makers who specialize in CNC and machined knives and I can guarantee you their knives are more "perfect" than a company that just whips them out. Outside the realm of machined knives, customs have far more QC put into them than any production knife. By nature of a knife being in a maker's hands for 20-40 hours, they are obsessed over. Can all makers put out a perfect knife? Ive yet to meet a maker who claims to have made one...but i've also yet to see a machine apply a hand rubbed 1000 grit finish, develop a hamon, or choose handle materials and line up their grain aesthetically.
 
David Schott said:
I guess it depends on what you consider perfectly executed. If its just mechanical precision then yes, a machine will obviously be more consistant at grinding plunge lines than a human. But there are custom makers who specialize in CNC and machined knives and I can guarantee you their knives are more "perfect" than a company that just whips them out. Outside the realm of machined knives, customs have far more QC put into them than any production knife. By nature of a knife being in a maker's hands for 20-40 hours, they are obsessed over. Can all makers put out a perfect knife? Ive yet to meet a maker who claims to have made one...but i've also yet to see a machine apply a hand rubbed 1000 grit finish, develop a hamon, or choose handle materials and line up their grain aesthetically.
Click to expand...

..........Bravo.............
 
fitzo said:
RSMITH, I have a question, if you don't mind. What brand of computer do you use to post here?
Click to expand...

WELL, IT'S AN HP, BUILT IN CHINA & SERVICED IN INDIA.
AS HARD AS I TRIED I COULD NOT FIND A COMPUTER THAT WAS MADE IN AMERICA. THIS IS MY POINT.
I WILL ALWAYS SPEND MORE MONEY (IF I HAVE TO) ON AMERCIAN MADE PRODUCTS WHEN I CAN.
MY FEAR IS ONE DAY THERE WILL NOT BE ANY "AMERICAN MADE" PRODUCTS AT ALL?
I REALIZE SOMETIMES THERE ARE NO OTHER OPTIONS. BUT I WILL FOCUS ON INVESTING IN ITEMS MADE BY AMERICAN HANDS WHERE EVER I CAN.
THANKS
 
AcridSaint said:
All of these mid-tech and cheapo import knives going for high-dollar just make it easier for the market to bear our prices. Bask in the glory and take the markup to the bank.
Click to expand...

That's how I look at it. If someone wants to pay $1500 for the product of a good CNC programmer, so be it. Maybe that's what they want. If that helps justify the cost of a handmade knife to someone else then it's fine by me.
 
ok thats your opinion but my opinion is that is exactly what is wrong with this country. we depend on on other countries far too much. truth is thats why the overseas battle going on right now is basically a waste of tax payers money. because somewhere along the trail of life some anal politician decided we can not fight wars to win, because the very country we are blowing holes in. keeps this country supplied with crap.. and so we depend on them too much to wipe them off the earth. so lets just waste thousands of american lives to put on a good show so all the local newspapers never run out of front page headlines, to keep money in america we need to keep those same anal politicans from wasting tax dollars supporting other countries. and start supporting this country,take a look hardly anything today is made in the usa, this country is far too full of overseas garbage. i totally agree with an earlier post that. if you can not support your own country you certainly have no bussiness supporting some other countries. before the war our anal government had a real hard time finding dollars to repair this country, yet they found it quick when it came to burning up a trillion dollars overseas and that is what the bill is at so far a trillion. big ones:jerkit:
 
I don't see production knives as necessarily better or worse- it depends on the maker, testing, consistency -in either case.

I will say I've never seen a production knife that was EXACTLY what I wanted in a given knife.

In GENERAL, I think the mass production disposable ideas that are promoted are wrong headed, and while that applies much more to a wally world special than an Al Mar folder, there's still something to be said for durable and custom made goods.

And then there's the soul of the machine, you may not believe that it matters at all, but I have a working assumption that it does.
 
AcridSaint said:
I want to know what brand of keyboard that auto-caps each word.

Honestly though, buying Chinese stuff today is no different than what we've been doing for the last 50 years or better. The countries shift around and so do the products.

When is the last time you heard of someone buying a suit made in the U.S.? 1940? They've been migrating around third world countries since the 50's at least. Sri Lanka, Japan, Chile, Mexico, China, Korea, Indonesia... wherever the cheap labor and materials are, there have been suits made for the past 50 years or better.

The truth is, we don't have a self-sustaining economy. If you really want Americans to keep their jobs you need to focus on domestic export production, something that we do not do. We are the world's consumer's, not the world's producers. To keep money in America, you need to build an export economy.

As far as political affiliations go, I'm more like a laissez-faire capitalist, which allows me to buy and sell "cheap Chinese junk" without caring about the proletariat. Combined with my middle-class income and lifestyle, I believe I am placed solidly in the bourgeoisie and thus in direct opposition with communism.

Resisting globalization and supporting local labor both seem to be actual communist tendencies. As is resisting "fat cats". Cheap laborers doing the work for "fat cats" is exactly what the communist manifesto argues against...
Click to expand...

Sorry about the caps (computer seems to be doing it on it's own)
You have stated some pretty valid points.
However, outsourcing has gotten out of hand.
Our dollar is pathetic on the world market (it wasn"t that way just years ago)
So yea, youre right, our stuff is cheap enough to buy with any other currency, except for our own, (some of the reason chinese stuff is getting more expensive)
I am not rich, so i must root for the middle class at this point.
People are paying up to four dollars for a gallon for gasoline & Exxon is the 18th largest economy in the world, hurray!
Day in & day out there are Americans loosing thier jobs due to outsourcing.
Again, if I have the choice, I will try to invest my own country.
Don't forget all of the current trouble this country is in (trouble you & I will pay for) because people dont raise an eyebrow. and think they have all the answers or it wont effect them.
The top 1% of this country doesnt care about anything except getting richer.
So I guess continue to support the building of a huge communist empire (China) as long as somebody in America is getting rich it must be ok?

Please Advise if I have my head up my^&%$, but this is the way I see it at this point
 
In my experience as someone with a collection of production knives who has just started getting customs. I have many low cost knives (under $100) that arrived in better condition than my customs. I have purchased 8 custom knives from 3 different makers, and only one maker (NWA) has shipped them with an edge that would cut paper. The other 2 makers also had major problems with fit and finish IMO, that I have not seen in my factory knives of the same range. I understand that this may just be bad luck but it does give a perception of the difference between handmade knives and production knives. I have also had very good experiences regarding customer service with my productions and have not been able to get one of the custom makers to contact me about my concerns.
Now I am a wannabe knifemaker so please do not take this as a hit against custom makers. But it does give an experience that others may use to tarnish custom makers. Also I have only 1 knife in the $200- $500 dollar range- a Moonsong Sebenza. The only reason that I have that as opposed to a Crawford Perfigo is that the graphic reminded me of a woodwork pattern that my mom made and the knife is for a plaque of knives that remind me of her.

Just food for thought. Feel free to respond and I will clear anything up. (I'm staying out of the political discussion that is happening).
 
RSMITH said:
Sorry about the caps (computer seems to be doing it on it's own)
You have stated some pretty valid points.
However, outsourcing has gotten out of hand.
Our dollar is pathetic on the world market (it wasn"t that way just years ago)
So yea, youre right, our stuff is cheap enough to buy with any other currency, except for our own, (some of the reason chinese stuff is getting more expensive)
I am not rich, so i must root for the middle class at this point.
People are paying up to four dollars for a gallon for gasoline & Exxon is the 18th largest economy in the world, hurray!
Day in & day out there are Americans loosing thier jobs due to outsourcing.
Again, if I have the choice, I will try to invest my own country.
Don't forget all of the current trouble this country is in (trouble you & I will pay for) because people dont raise an eyebrow. and think they have all the answers or it wont effect them.
The top 1% of this country doesnt care about anything except getting richer.
So I guess continue to support the building of a huge communist empire (China) as long as somebody in America is getting rich it must be ok?

Please Advise if I have my head up my^&%$, but this is the way I see it at this point
Click to expand...

Well, while trying to avoid turning this into a political discussion, I will say that we both agree there's a problem, we just don't agree on the solution. That's what my socialist buddy always tells me.

The cheap goods that we import into the U.S. are industrial goods that we can't make as cheaply or as quickly as other countries without killing ourselves. No one wants to produce hot water bottles, medicine balls or toothbrushes because no one wants to pay for the insurance when their employees start dying of cancer.

Same goes for recycling - we ship computer parts overseas to be recycled because none of us wants to inhale the lead fumes, burning plastics and fiberglass, etc. It would cost tens of times more money to do the work here and they would be low-income, high-hazard jobs with no room for advancement.

Outsourcing is affecting my industry negatively as well, so I know all too well about the pains of losing jobs to foreign nationals. I just believe in becoming an expert in your field and continuing to develop new, marketable skills. The jobs that are going to China are not skilled labor or white collar jobs. They are jobs that no one in the U.S. wants to have, at least not as a lifelong career path.

The old model just doesn't work here, we can't have an isolated autonomous economy and have a growing number of successful Americans. We have to play a role in the global economy and we have to depend on other people. China makes up 25% of the world export economy. They won't always do that, as they move beyond industrialization, their export economy will shift and production will come out of the third world.

There are always two sides to the coin - I think our most powerful tool in this fight is knowing what both sides and how we can leverage them for the betterment of ourselves and those around us. Maybe most folks don't believe in reasonable self-interest, but it's how I live my life and it's working OK for me so far.

Anyhow, like I say, doesn't bother me that folks are buying cheap Chinese knives, they're the same folks that were buying the cheap Pakistani knives in the 70's and 80's. There's always going to be a market for that kind of stuff, the nice part is that someone figured out they could sell cheap junk at a premium, making our handmade knives look like more of a bargain.
 
AcridSaint said:
The truth is, we don't have a self-sustaining economy. If you really want Americans to keep their jobs you need to focus on domestic export production, something that we do not do. We are the world's consumer's, not the world's producers. To keep money in America, you need to build an export economy.

As far as political affiliations go, I'm more like a laissez-faire capitalist, which allows me to buy and sell "cheap Chinese junk" without caring about the proletariat. Combined with my middle-class income and lifestyle, I believe I am placed solidly in the bourgeoisie and thus in direct opposition with communism.

Resisting globalization and supporting local labor both seem to be actual communist tendencies. As is resisting "fat cats". Cheap laborers doing the work for "fat cats" is exactly what the communist manifesto argues against...
Click to expand...

America has never been a nation that can be economically isolationist. We've always had a huge export trade. More globally, as a species and a global civilization, there is no place for isolationism or nationalistic views on economy now anyway- We've *been* globalized for a century or more.

I don't think laissez-faire capitalism is a political afiliation so much as an econopmic philosophy- and one I've *never* seen in *practice* on any sort of scale.

Where globalization as an oligarchal, "conspiracy of monopolies" (see note) system reduces the rights to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness, globalization is bad. And I don't feel particularly red, nor even pink, saying so.

(Note. Adam Smith, patron saint of all things that claim to be capitalist, put it best himself when he wrote "People of the same trade seldom meet together, even for merriment and diversion, but the conversation ends in a conspiracy against the public.")

I'm not going to even touch the idea of buying local as a communist idea. Too far off topic, too long a post!

I think that there are places for the custom and the production knife. But responsibly, on both ends.
 
Well, my political affiliation has roots in laissez-faire capitalism, although it's not the entire ideology.

The point is that my advocating or personally purchasing Chinese goods does not make me a closet communist and the ideals expressed in contrast to mine were much closer to it. Like I said, I don't want to go far into politics on this one. Imo, what I said stands on its own merit.
 
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