what is wrong with guys today?

[koyote]

I know china is a big one for cheap production knives right now- but it's hardly the only place where knives are produced.

Hell, when I think production knife in my head, I think of germany and finland. Maybe that's just the type of production knife I pay attention to!

 

[Bare Rib]

If I print a photograph from a digital image it will always be realistic and a perfect representation of whatever it is an image of. If I commission an artist to paint that same scene, it might have some tiny flaws in realism. Would i rather have a picture on my wall that a machine spit out or a handpainted work of art? Thats an easy answer.

Please do not discredit photography as a legitimate form of art. As a professional photographer and artist I put countless hours into producing images. Some are shot with film and printed in the darkroom, some are digitally captured and printed in a variety of print mediums, and some are produced with historic processes with hand applied emulsions where i make the photographic chemicals and paper myself; but, all get the same time, attention, and devotion much like I imagine you give to each of the knives you produce. Which to me is the deciding factor as to what knives I would buy, be it custom or production I look to see the level of dedication that maker has to his product and customers. The process isn't what's important as in art its the meaning behind the piece that truly matters.

 

[David Schott]

Please do not discredit photography as a legitimate form of art. As a professional photographer and artist I put countless hours into producing images. Some are shot with film and printed in the darkroom, some are digitally captured and printed in a variety of print mediums, and some are produced with historic processes with hand applied emulsions where i make the photographic chemicals and paper myself; but, all get the same time, attention, and devotion much like I imagine you give to each of the knives you produce. Which to me is the deciding factor as to what knives I would buy, be it custom or production I look to see the level of dedication that maker has to his product and customers. The process isn't what's important as in art its the meaning behind the piece that truly matters.

Please don't take my comments as any insult to photography at all. I was just trying to make a parallel to image reproduction vs something handmade. I was more thinking of the difference between someone taking a picture of a flower and printing 1000 copies or an artist painting that flower 1000 times. The photo will always be "perfect" while the paintings will vary and include elements that show it is a handmade work. As a result, its not really fair to compare a mass-produced company's ability to produce identical knives with knives that are produced suing hand tools and handcrafted work. Your photography work is much akin to a custom knife and the same argument would hold true. "why would i pay for a professional photographer if I can take pictures and print them myself?" and the answer is all the work you described and a dedication to the craft.

 

[Bare Rib]

Please don't take my comments as any insult to photography at all. I was just trying to make a parallel to image reproduction vs something handmade. I was more thinking of the difference between someone taking a picture of a flower and printing 1000 copies or an artist painting that flower 1000 times. The photo will always be "perfect" while the paintings will vary and include elements that show it is a handmade work. As a result, its not really fair to compare a mass-produced company's ability to produce identical knives with knives that are produced suing hand tools and handcrafted work. Your photography work is much akin to a custom knife and the same argument would hold true. "why would i pay for a professional photographer if I can take pictures and print them myself?" and the answer is all the work you described and a dedication to the craft.

No insult taken. However to the trained eye every photograph is different heck I have photographs that I have produced that are non-reproducible one-of-a-kinds. All I'm saying is there are nuances that set all photographs apart even when it comes to digitally printed images. Show me a machine that is infallible and I will show you our new god. (no insult is meant to those whom are religious the point I'm trying to make is that nothing is perfect and infallible.)

I guess the point I was trying to make earlier is that to me it depends on the maker and their intentions. Let's face it I'm sure there are some "paint by numbers" custom knife makers out there who simply go through the motions and just churn out knives; and yes they are hand made mean nothing and have no cares about what they produce or who they are producing it for. While, there are some production knife makers such as RAT Cutlery (USA made by the way) that truly care about quality, fit & finish, and their customers.

 

[koyote]

I guess the point I was trying to make earlier is that to me it depends on the maker and their intentions. Let's face it I'm sure there are some "paint by numbers" custom knife makers out there who simply go through the motions and just churn out knives; and yes they are hand made mean nothing and have no cares about what they produce or who they are producing it for. While, there are some production knife makers such as RAT Cutlery (USA made by the way) that truly care about quality, fit & finish, and their customers.

Interesting point. And one I struggle with. I've got a few designs I *can* sell as fast as I can make them, faster than I can now, in fact. It's hard to figure how I want to handle that. Right now *every* knife I've made has been completely free handed, forged or profile ground. I've once in a while used a pattern for the rough cutting on a profile grind, but it goes purely by feel after the cutting disc is done. Waterjet cutting is something I'm trying to get done on a few patterns, but even then I'm still doing the convex grind by hand, and all the heat treating and handle materials...

 

[BladefulArt]

From what I noticed, very few, if any production knives are "perfect". Factories are out there to make the most money with the least expenses. Custom and hand made makers are out there to give the customer the most for their money. (In most cases.)

Factory knives are also not inspected. Custom and handmades usually are.
A factory will not invest in the time needed to heat treat their blades to specifications.Professional makers do. Customs and handmades are also more carefully made. Also, don't forget that they can have features that can't be done by automated equipment.

Factory mades decrease in vaule, hand made and customs by known makers appreciate in vaule. I have yet to seen a production knife that is actually sharp, from what I noticed, hand mades are much sharper as more attention is giving to the sharpening process. All of my production knives have very poor relief and shallow grinds.

Fit and finish is also a major offense made by production knives, as automated equipment can not see what their doing.

Based on what I have noticed and read, its the custom and hand mades that are more perfect, not the massively produced.

Are some production knives in good quality? I'm quiet sure good quality production mades are out there, I just haven't found any.

 

[BLADECARVER]

in todays world we have traded off quality for cheaper production expenses, and not only in knives but alot of our production goods lack the quality that was once offered. look at buck they are getting head high in these collaberation lines of knives. at one time you could purchase any one of bucks production knives and know exactly what you were getting. now the first thing you look for is if it was made here or taiwan. i just about cry now when i see made in taiwan on bucks knives. i think buck made a huge mistake when they decided to take that route.

 

[BLADECARVER]

look at gil hibbens line hey now he has some awsome designs. but they lack one thing. and thats that giant stamp of approval made in the good ole usa.. i would love to have a couple of his ok ok a few of his designs in. 5160, 1095, 01 ect custom made. then i would not mind spending some cash.

 

[AcridSaint]

Gil Hibben licenses his designs, but he makes custom knives. There is a difference here. Hard to compare the two.

 

[Frank Niro]

Boy sme of this is BAD TO THE BONE !!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Why do you think that when someone says custom it's supposed to be soooo good or when it's a production knife it's supposed to be soooo bad? Production knives one against another in the same run are not so close in sizing and fit and finish unless the company is going much further than most to give that, nor do custom makers necessarily strive to do that either when say two the same are being made. Why do you have to blow out that Ebay knives are junk and respected makers don't go there? I know I'm now concidered to be a respected maker. Check out Ebay numbers 280224699062 and or 270224716874 If you need more send me an email and I'll give you a top line dealer who is now selling my knives. By the way I do all the work you see on the folders except make the metals, screws and handle materials. I don't have milling machines or surface grinders but why not. Most often what sells at a certain price does so because experience can tell the difference and that isn't your wife or Dad. No I don't make knives for a living but I sure do love making them. Frank Niro

 

[BladefulArt]

Gil Hibben licenses his designs, but he makes custom knives. There is a difference here. Hard to compare the two.

Custom knives are designed by the customer then sold directly to customers. (Custom=made to personal order) I haven't seen that feature on Hibbens site, therefore, they arn't customs. I could have overlooked it though.

I have seen Hibben Knives in catalogs though that are refered to as "customs". If they were true customs, they would not be sold in a catalog..they would be shiped to the customer that helped design it.

I also don't see how he manages to license his designs considering how common they are.

 

[sunshadow]

Well, while trying to avoid turning this into a political discussion, I will say that we both agree there's a problem, we just don't agree on the solution. That's what my socialist buddy always tells me.

The cheap goods that we import into the U.S. are industrial goods that we can't make as cheaply or as quickly as other countries without killing ourselves. No one wants to produce hot water bottles, medicine balls or toothbrushes because no one wants to pay for the insurance when their employees start dying of cancer.

Outsourcing is affecting my industry negatively as well, so I know all too well about the pains of losing jobs to foreign nationals. I just believe in becoming an expert in your field and continuing to develop new, marketable skills. The jobs that are going to China are not skilled labor or white collar jobs. They are jobs that no one in the U.S. wants to have, at least not as a lifelong career path.

The old model just doesn't work here, we can't have an isolated autonomous economy and have a growing number of successful Americans. We have to play a role in the global economy and we have to depend on other people. China makes up 25% of the world export economy. They won't always do that, as they move beyond industrialization, their export economy will shift and production will come out of the third world.

BULLS###
The politicians selling this load of manure are heavily invested in major corporations that are paying several dollars a WEEK (yes that figure came directly from a local assemblyman who is also an executive with a company that is building a factory in China that a company I used to work for was making production machine frames for)

Americans WOULD do those jobs if they were still available, especially if they were available at a living wage, but you cannot live here in the rust belt on $5.47 a week which is what the assemblyman said his company was paying workers in China.

Every time you save a few bucks buying chinese made junk at walmart instead of buying a similar American made product at "Bob's Hardware" which is owned by Bob and his family you are bringing us one step closer to the day when there is no more American industry. As it is 80% of our production capacity is on foreign soil in facilities which we technically do not own. If China, Korea, Japan, and Taiwan decide to nationalize our factories it will paralyze our nation.

We won WWII because we were able to harness our massive production capacity and outproduce the rest of the world, in a similar war we would be sunk.

American small business, the American craftsman, and the American worker are what make this nation great.

Buy local, Buy regional, Buy American
I have watched Ithaca, Groton, Cortland, Rochester, and Syracuse NY all gutted by overseas and outsourced production.

<End rant>
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[BLADECARVER]

bladefulart hit the nail on the head, also if the were customs they would not be spitting them out on the end of a assembly line faster than you can blink:thumbdn:

 

[KnghtWalkr]

Good question. For my part, I've owned low end productions, high end productions/mid techs, and customs. I've had far more high end productions than any other, primarily because of knife-to-knife consistent quality. I know that when I get a WH, Klotzli or CRK knife, it will be perfect. Unfortunately, the same cannot be said for customs. I know there are lots of good reasons for buying custom knives and lots of really talented custom makers, but even the really good custom makers let one slip through occasionally. It seems like statistically this happens far less with high end production knives. OK, flame away...

- Mark

I would rather have a custom knife that breaks than a perfect machine made knife like a thousand others. Not that it would be the case, never had a custom break or fail me. Something about machine made can just be cold and emotionless, doesn't feel the same as steel that has soul poured into it.

Just my opinion ;-)

 

[Jack O'Neill]

I've had people at the shows tell me they could not buy my knife for $145.00 because it was to pretty and therefore they could not use it . Then they went down the isle and bought a production knife for $ 125.00 . Guess that knife was ugly , my problem is , I don't know how to make an ugly knife . Makers have heart and soul in their work , and it stays in their work and can be felt by the holder of that work . I've never felt any soul from a production knife .

 

[Jack O'Neill]

I've had people at the shows tell me they could not buy my knife for $145.00 because it was to pretty and therefore they could not use it . Then they went down the isle and bought a production knife for $ 125.00 . Guess that knife was ugly , my problem is , I don't know how to make an ugly knife . Makers have heart and soul in their work , and it stays in their work and can be felt by the holder of that work . I've never felt any soul from a production knife .

 

[BLADECARVER]

EBAY ITEM# 360049182624. nice blade but is it really worth the current bid?

 

[sunshadow]

That thing is butt-fUgly!
not a line of beauty or form in it, kinda reminds me of the Pontiac Aztec

you can make a tactical beautiful, heck, Randalls had some decent lines. Nobody bothered on that one though

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[AcridSaint]

BULLS###
The politicians selling this load of manure are heavily invested in major corporations that are paying several dollars a WEEK (yes that figure came directly from a local assemblyman who is also an executive with a company that is building a factory in China that a company I used to work for was making production machine frames for)

Americans WOULD do those jobs if they were still available, especially if they were available at a living wage, but you cannot live here in the rust belt on $5.47 a week which is what the assemblyman said his company was paying workers in China.

Every time you save a few bucks buying chinese made junk at walmart instead of buying a similar American made product at "Bob's Hardware" which is owned by Bob and his family you are bringing us one step closer to the day when there is no more American industry. As it is 80% of our production capacity is on foreign soil in facilities which we technically do not own. If China, Korea, Japan, and Taiwan decide to nationalize our factories it will paralyze our nation.

We won WWII because we were able to harness our massive production capacity and outproduce the rest of the world, in a similar war we would be sunk.

American small business, the American craftsman, and the American worker are what make this nation great.

Buy local, Buy regional, Buy American
I have watched Ithaca, Groton, Cortland, Rochester, and Syracuse NY all gutted by overseas and outsourced production.

<End rant>
-Page

Lol -let your kids work unskilled jobs and get seven different kinds of cancer, won't bother me any friend. Don't have to agree with me, but if you blanket everything I say as BS without considering it then you've already lost.

I believe I even said that we were still making suits in the 40's... when did we become a "great" super-power? After WWII when we started putting our resources into military research, technology and post industrial jobs. Being able to make shirts and shoes isn't enough to make us a "great nation" any longer. If it were, China would already be the greatest of all.

Custom knives are designed by the customer then sold directly to customers. (Custom=made to personal order) I haven't seen that feature on Hibbens site, therefore, they arn't customs. I could have overlooked it though.

I have seen Hibben Knives in catalogs though that are refered to as "customs". If they were true customs, they would not be sold in a catalog..they would be shiped to the customer that helped design it.

I also don't see how he manages to license his designs considering how common they are.

You need to learn more about custom knives before talking about folks like Gil. You're spouting misinformed nonsense at this point. There is a reason he's a figurehead in the Knifemaker's Guild. The guild that fights like cats and dogs about what tooling and parts you can use on your knife and still call it custom. There is a difference between a Gil Hibben knife and a licensed design. Here's some more reading for you:
http://www.hibbenknives.com/faq.htm#Handmade and UC Rambo
http://www.hibbenknives.com/faq.htm#Time to fill order
http://www.hibbenknives.com/faq.htm#Gil do his won work

Since you think the knife has to be partly designed by the customer (which it does not) here's one that should be particularly useful to you:
http://www.hibbenknives.com/faq.htm#Customer design

Gil Hibben is one of the people who's brought custom knife making to the next level in both recognition and quality. You might not like his stuff, you may think his designs are common (although he's had some of the most original designs in modern knifemaking), but you can't say he's not a custom knife maker. Well, I guess you could, but you'd just be uninformed and ignorant.

 

[sunshadow]

Lol -let your kids work unskilled jobs and get seven different kinds of cancer, won't bother me any friend. Don't have to agree with me, but if you blanket everything I say as BS without considering it then you've already lost.

I believe I even said that we were still making suits in the 40's... when did we become a "great" super-power? After WWII when we started putting our resources into military research, technology and post industrial jobs. Being able to make shirts and shoes isn't enough to make us a "great nation" any longer. If it were, China would already be the greatest of all.

With all due respect, my kid is about to finish college in a somewhat forlorn hope that there will actually be a job to work that will justify the $130,000.00 debt that her education is incurring, I have $100,000.00 in student loan debt for a masters degree in an industry that has been largely outsourced to China, a member of my family has been a computer engineer for his company for 30+ years and the only reason his job has not been outsourced to India with the entire rest of his division is that he was packaged into a support deal to New York State that requires that he be in Albany 3 days a week for onsite support. Yes innovation and technology is critical to making a country great, but without the means to turn that innovation into physical form it is without substance and subject to the vicissitudes of shifting alliances and world economies.
There will always be people who's destiny is limited by their capabilities, the law of averages states that for every person with an IQ of 120 there are 20 people with an IQ of 99. If they cannot find gainful employment the machine of capitolism eventually stalls. In central New York it is apparent everywhere you look that our system is broken. When I moved to Syracuse I was working as a goldsmith for a high end jewelry store. Carrier Corp laid off our customers, and we had an entire Christmas season where me and the other goldsmith got all of our work done by 1 PM, that is unheard of, we should have been backed up for a week or two, but nobody was buying because they had all been laid off, needless to say I got laid off shortly after that.

How does this relate to custom knives?
First, the current consumer has been so brainwashed that they do not understand that humans can create quality work. I was selling at a craft show and after stating that all of my work was handmade by me, one guy asked me very seriously "where do you buy this stuff" I explained that I had made it, he didn't believe me, so i explained exactly how I had made several pieces, and he didn't believe that it was possible for a handmade piece to be good, and since the pieces on my table looked good enough to be sold in a jewelry store, obviously they were factory made production pieces.
I think it is imperative that every craftsman and craftswoman take it upon themselves to educate the public that special, unique quality work is handmade, and back that up by producing special unique quality work.

Second, the buying public needs to be educated about the effect their buying choices have on their community. If I buy my lumber from a local sawmill that guy will (hopefully) spend at least some of his money locally, Many people who are otherwise loyal Americans think nothing of going into a WalMart and buying a $10.00 Ninja Monkey of Doom knife, throwing it out in a year when it breaks and geting another just like it. That knife is made in China of Chinese steel with a Chinese belt pouch and Chinese packaging. If somebody spends the aggregate amount they would spend on substandard knives in a 10 or 20 year period on a good using knife from Mace, maybe made of steel he got from Aldo with handle material purchased from Del Ealy, and a sheath made by "WildRose" (just hypothetically listing known quality sources not a specific knife, although that would be an awesome combination!) that would be money spent on a knife that would survive to be passed down through generations, and 4 or more American craftspeople would be continuing that economic distribution in their home communtites.

Buy Local, Buy regional, Buy American

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