What is your dream forging press?

[adammichael]

Nice looking drawing.

Assuming you are going to use the side rails as the die guides, I would make the distance between the upright rails much smaller for less lateral play.

I have a ram designed that i think would eliminate alot of the play you are talking about. It has 2" cold rolled x 15" long for the guides with a 4" long tube collar. There are Zerks on the collars. The top plate is 1" x 7" wide by 15.25" long. The pic shows the ram with a set of squaring dies. There is a set of drawing dies in the storage rack in the lower right of the pic. All the component bolt into place and there are slots for adjustment to insure that everything lines up. It can all be taken apart and every part on the guide system can be replaced. There is no welding on the guides except for the 2" round bar to the bottom plate witch is made of 3/8" mild steel. The top ram plate has .375" gussets, 1" plate for the cylinder attachment and is welded solid. I dont have the bolts shown in the pic but they are all 3/8" and there are no holes drilled into the vertical tubes. there are threaded buttons welded to the vertical tubes for the top bracket to bolt into. There are holes drilled into the bottom plate for the base of the guides to bolt to.

So tell me. What wont work?

 

[Sweany]

Daryl Meir and Twisted Nickel, Ferguson? IIRC use press in the 100 ton range.
Ferguson uses a brake press IIRC

I like the $1000.00 dollar bill press the best though

squish, k-ching!

 

[Mark Williams]

Ahh,

That's better. That drawing make mre sense.

What are you going to use for holding the dies in place?.

That's one thing I hate. When you are squishing a billet and pulling it towards you , the dies get pulled out of place. It's easy not to pay attension and you end up shearing the billet.

 

[adammichael]

Ahh,

That's better. That drawing make mre sense.

What are you going to use for holding the dies in place?.

That's one thing I hate. When you are squishing a billet and pulling it towards you , the dies get pulled out of place. It's easy not to pay attension and you end up shearing the billet.

I have some ideas but i havent drawn them up yet. I am waiting for more feedback about what experienced users would like to see or what they dont like about the current methods of holding the dies.

I currently am trying for self cleaning ways, quick positive lock down and some sort of handle that stays cool so you can install and remove the dies with a gloved hand.

I should have something designed for them in a few days.

I forgot to mention that the working hieght of the press is around 42"

 

[Dan Gray]

yes close up the distances for sure
and you'll have more strength with the bottom hoz tubes too.
which to me is questionable in the strength you'll need there..
gusset it up maybe? that end will have the same pressure as the top remember.
On mine I'll use 1"x6" ver plate and then gusset it.

 

[adammichael]

yes close up the distances for sure
and you'll have more strength with the bottom hoz tubes too.
which to me is questionable in the strength you'll need there..
gusset it up maybe? that end will have the same pressure as the top remember.
On mine I'll use 1"x6" ver plate and then gusset it.

Im not sure what you mean by bottom horizontal tube. Could you elaborate? Do you mean close up the distance by moving the guide bars closer together? The inside distance between the horizontal tubes is 24" right now. The top plate that the cylinder is mounted to is 1" thick. The top plate on the ram is 1" thick by 7" wide and only 15.25" long.

 

[Dan Gray]

Im not sure what you mean by bottom horizontal tube. Could you elaborate? Do you mean close up the distance by moving the guide bars closer together?

you posted the other picture before I posted again..

I may be reading that wrong but you may have to turn your dies 90% ??

the two square tubes on bottom, should be = in strength to the top piston support....

 

[adammichael]

you posted the other picture before I posted again..

I may be reading that wrong but you may have to turn your dies 90% ??

the two square tubes on bottom, should be = in strength to the top piston support....

That squaring die is a 3 way die. From left to right it is 1.75", 1.5" and 1.25" square. there are pcs of 1/2" plate lasered and bolted together with 3.5" long 3/8" bolts and welded to the 1/4" plates. I have one that has 2.25" square and 2" square and a third die set that has 1", .75", .5" and .25" square. Im thinking fewer die changes is a good thing.

 

[adammichael]

the two square tubes on bottom, should be = in strength to the top piston support....

The bottom horizontal tubes are also 6x4x 3/8" wall. The 2 vertical tubes under the die set tranfers the load straight down to the floor. I believe it is a very stiff design. I will crunch the nubers again but i believe the bottom tubes are stronger that the plate that the top of thecylinder is mounted to.

Thanks Dan, I definatly need to check that.

 

[Mark Williams]

I think you need to either beef up those guides or take advantage of the uprights as an added support. maybe bring the plate out to the edge of the uprights and have some type of U channel that is part of the guide top plate..

 

[adammichael]

I think you need to either beef up those guides or take advantage of the uprights as an added support. maybe bring the plate out to the edge of the uprights and have some type of U channel that is part of the guide top plate..

Here is a better pic. The guides are 2" solid round stock welded at the bottom to a 3/8" thick plate. That plate is bolted to the 1" thick plate. The top of the 2" solid round bar is threaded to accept a 3/8-16 bolt. The top bracket is bolted to the vertical tube and the top of the 2" guide with a 3/8" bolt and a 1/4" washer


Do you think i need to tie the bottom of the guide (the round plate with the 3 holes) to the vertical tube? I get what your saying about the top bracket. The force on the guide is going to be left-right-front -back. Do you think there will be alot of force up and down on those guide bars?

 

[Dan Gray]

a few more thoughts

The bottom horizontal tubes are also 6x4x 3/8" wall. The 2 vertical tubes under the die set tranfers the load straight down to the floor. I believe it is a very stiff design. I will crunch the nubers again but i believe the bottom tubes are stronger that the plate that the top of thecylinder is mounted to.

Thanks Dan, I definatly need to check that.

your'er not pushing on the floor..unless you plan on lag bolting it down

because of them being tubing I'm thinking not as strongh you'll have rounded corners that will force the side walls out.
the tubing will be great for pulling strenth. but the longer they are the more problem they can be.

Here is a better pic. The guides are 2" solid round stock welded at the bottom to a 3/8" thick plate. That plate is bolted to the 1" thick plate. The top of the 2" solid round bar is threaded to accept a 3/8-16 bolt. The top bracket is bolted to the vertical tube and the top of the 2" guide with a 3/8" bolt and a 1/4" washer


Do you think i need to tie the bottom of the guide (the round plate with the 3 holes) to the vertical tube? I get what your saying about the top bracket. The force on the guide is going to be left-right-front -back. Do you think there will be alot of force up and down on those guide bars?

I think the slides will be the problem( binding from being short.), but only if you get an uneven pressure
from one end of the die or the other..

edited to add

That squaring die is a 3 way die. From left to right it is 1.75", 1.5" and 1.25" square. there are pcs of 1/2" plate lasered and bolted together with 3.5" long 3/8" bolts and welded to the 1/4" plates. I have one that has 2.25" square and 2" square and a third die set that has 1", .75", .5" and .25" square. Im thinking fewer die changes is a good thing.

I must have missed that I thought it was a accordion die or something side ways.

 

[J. MacDonald]

I'm no mechanical engineer, but to my mind if you try to use the multi sized dies as the picture shows, using the one on either end would almost surely cause the binding Dan's concerned about.

As far as lag bolting it to the floor, you'd need some frigggin huge lags to keep from pulling out under teh pressure of a 25 ton press. I'd think the frame would have to be a solidly built integral unit, wither welded or bolted to keep from having deflection problems, but I'm shooting from the hip and don't have access to the engineering resources you've got.

 

[adammichael]

a few more thoughts


your'er not pushing on the floor..unless you plan on lag bolting it down

because of them being tubing I'm thinking not as strongh you'll have rounded corners that will force the side walls out.
the tubing will be great for pulling strenth. but the longer they are the more problem they can be.



I think the slides will be the problem( binding from being short.), but only if you get an uneven pressure
from one end of the die or the other..

That is the same concept as an I beam press. The load is transfered down to the floor instead of out to the sides. That is like boxing in an Ibeam. Keep in mind the wall thickness of the tubes is .375". The Calculations on the vertical tubes under the dies show around 280 thousand pounds before they will start to bow. The 1" plate above the tubes keep the top of the tube stabile and the storage shelves on the sides of the tubes will help stabilize that whole column. The calculations on this structure show this to withstand an unbelievable amount of pressure in all directions. ( i will see if i can find my sheets on this and post the actual numbers)

how much do you compress the billet on the initial weld? The collars are 4" high and there is .060" play between the inside of the collar and the outside of the 2" solid round bar. If you are squishing 1 inch per heat ( i dont know what the actiol distance is) that is alot of support for that 1" of movement. I think that should keep the ram parallel the distance of the squish. As I mentioned before, there is also grease zerks on the collars to keep is nice and slippery.

 

[delbert ealy]

Hey guys,
I've been using my press (built by John Smith) Its a 35 ton h-frame. One important aspect I've found is the height of the bottom die. It should be the same height as your anvil. Mine has dies set in a channel with a stop pin in front. They change in seconds and are secure. I don't use drawing dies, mine are 3" x 7" flats. For drawing I just take small bites. As for power and tonnage, you can never have too much. If you need to stop a a certian point use a stop block. Mine are mild steel blocks that just sit on the face of the bottom die. they are from 1/8" to 2" in 1/8" increments. As far as delamination goes I've found that as long as you don't go over 25% in a single squeeze you will be ok. I've made about 3000# of damascus with this press so far.
Del
www.ealyknives.com

 

[Sweany]

I think I found one

 

[fitzo]

Cool, Mike! There was a show on one of the Discovery spinoffs that briefly showed a press in operation that was one of those megasaurs, though perhaps not quite as large as that. Awesome.....

 

[Dan Gray]

That is the same concept as an I beam press. The load is transfered down to the floor instead of out to the sides. That is like boxing in an Ibeam. Keep in mind the wall thickness of the tubes is .375". The Calculations on the vertical tubes under the dies show around 280 thousand pounds before they will start to bow. The 1" plate above the tubes keep the top of the tube stabile and the storage shelves on the sides of the tubes will help stabilize that whole column. The calculations on this structure show this to withstand an unbelievable amount of pressure in all directions. ( i will see if i can find my sheets on this and post the actual numbers)

how much do you compress the billet on the initial weld? The collars are 4" high and there is .060" play between the inside of the collar and the outside of the 2" solid round bar. If you are squishing 1 inch per heat ( i dont know what the actiol distance is) that is alot of support for that 1" of movement. I think that should keep the ram parallel the distance of the squish. As I mentioned before, there is also grease zerks on the collars to keep is nice and slippery.

opps did this below..

 

[Dan Gray]

I don't think we're on the same page here..
it's the bottom horizontal tubes that bother me not bending vertical tubes..
you can't compare it to an I beam the I-bean is one piece and not pushing anything below the die shelf gussets.

look at it this way, what is the side ways tonnage on the tubes at that length?? if the lower tubes bend I believe it will rip out the welds ..
edited to add say what would happen if you don't weld
the horizontal tubes to the out side tubes? I think this will show you the page I'm on..you'll just lift the unit up as the
vertical tubes just set on the floor...with horizontal tubes attached to them..
the floor is not going to help you right?

I stand corrected if the tubes will take 280 thousand pounds before they will start to bow on side ways
presure (horizontally)



another way to think about it..
under pressure the out side tubes are trying to be stretched right?
if that the case it's the welds at the ends of the horizontal tubes that will be the week points.
the horizontal tube could hold a million pounds but if the end welds brake what happens?
.the floor won't move but the press frame will..going UP...

 

[adammichael]

I stand corrected if the tubes will take 280 thousand pounds before they will start to bow on side ways
presure (horizontally)



another way to think about it..
under pressure the out side tubes are trying to be stretched right?
if that the case it's the welds at the ends of the horizontal tubes that will be the week points.
the horizontal tube could hold a million pounds but if the end welds brake what happens?
.the floor won't move but the press frame will..going UP...

Thats the case with any press that has weld on it. If you look at the bottom of the frame it is welded solid all around as well as vetically up the front and back sides of both tubes. The 1" plate is also welded solid all around on both tubes. The shear strength od the welds far exceeds what the pump and cylinder is capible of producing. (provided were not talking about a 100 ton press).

On an I-beam press the welds on the top plate holding the cylinder is the weak link. If those welds fail the top goes up.

If you take a standard H press with a boxed in lower plate, The force is concentrated in the center of the vertical tubes. The strength of the welds are the week link. If the welds fail the bottom plate drops instead of the side tubes going up.

Strong welds are the key to any press holding up under pressure. (Get it? under PRESSURE.)