What is your dream forging press?

[fitzo]

My "bona fides" comment got in the middle and made this sound like it was putting you two at odds. It was unintended, and of unfortunate consequence. My bad..... sorry guys.

Carry on with the design considerations......

 

[Dan Gray]

My "bona fides" comment got in the middle and made this sound like it was putting you two at odds. It was unintended, and of unfortunate consequence. My bad..... sorry guys.

Carry on with the design considerations......

Mike I don't think that at all and it was in no way a thought here..
I can only speak for myself though..I only ask questions and if no answer I'll get them ,, no matter...I didn't think the forums were one sided if asked for info..
that set of hoz tubes do not make anymore difference setting on the floor or 6" off the floor other than the weight of the press itself as long as the welds are the same , if he can't see that then there's no skin off my teeth.
I really don't care about the education factor smart men do make mistake too..

I was in charge of the hyd steering gear on the Navy ship I spent 3 years on but I don't know as much as I should about it.
I'm not trying to being a smart a$$ about it , I do need to learn more about it still.

 

[adammichael]

Mike I don't think that at all and it was in no way a thought here..
I can only speak for myself though..I only ask questions and if no answer I'll get them ,, no matter...I didn't think the forums were one sided if asked for info..
that set of hoz tubes do not make anymore difference setting on the floor or 6" off the floor other than the weight of the press itself as long as the welds are the same , if he can't see that then there's no skin off my teeth.
I really don't care about the education factor smart men do make mistake too..

I was in charge of the hyd steering gear on the Navy ship I spent 3 years on but I don't know as much as I should about it.
I'm not trying to being a smart a$$ about it , I do need to learn more about it still.

I give up Dan, you win. I dont have the time or energy to convince you of something that you dont want to believe. I dont post a whole lot on here but i thought I would ask this question about the press because I never ran a press. I asked what features would be cool in a press. Instead its a debate about a tube. On an I-beam press, under the anvil, there is a structural member going all the way to the floor. Why dont they just put a gusset under the anvil and save all that weight? On bowies press he has 2 1" plates welded to the anvil plate to box it in. Why do you think he does that? Whats cheaper, 2 structural tubes or two 1 x 8 x 24" wide steel plates? You know what? Never mind, please dont answer that because i dont want to debate that point either. Bowies press is probably the best one out there and i am in no way bashing his design at all. Im starting to think now that I should have just saved up for a year or so and bought one of his.

Alot of people here have spent the last week or so berating Chiro75 because he wont get a book and do some research. You keep saying those tubes arent nessesary so get some engineering books and research it. Do the calculations, learn about structural design and make a light weight, portable, A-frame press that will put out 50 tons. I wish you all the success in the world

Thanks everyone for your imput, I really appreciate it. Hopefully there will be more ideas on what you guys would like to see in a forging press.

 

[Dan Gray]

your right I give up too . you believe you are that much smarter that I am
so it's fogging you up to what I asked...
COOL I have no problem with that.. you're not reading what I'm saying..

the vertical tube length will make no added difference other than more length
to bow if it even could,,, that is not the point.

the lower horizontal tubes are in deed taking the place of the plates you speak of
I know that...yes

it just doesn't matter if they (the vertical tube) are at the floor or at 6" length under the dies other than minor differences with all else the same..

you'd still have the vertical tubes but they'd be just shorter...< point..

it would be no different than leaving everything the same as you have it now
and add length to the outer tubes below the horizontal tubes
to raze the height of the whole press.

maybe I'm explaining this to simply
the more I think about it the question or point was to simple
oh well...

I do like those calculators on the site Thanks..

 

[adammichael]

your right I give up too . you believe you are that much smarter that I am
so it's fogging you up to what I asked...
COOL I have no problem with that.. you're not reading what I'm saying..

the vertical tube length will make no added difference other than more length
to bow if it even could,,, that is not the point.

the lower horizontal tubes are in deed taking the place of the plates you speak of
I know that...yes

it just doesn't matter if they (the vertical tube) are at the floor or at 6" length under the dies other than minor differences with all else the same..

you'd still have the vertical tubes but they'd be just shorter...< point..

it would be no different than leaving everything the same as you have it now
and add length to the outer tubes below the horizontal tubes
to raze the height of the whole press.

maybe I'm explaining this to simply
the more I think about it the question or point was to simple
oh well...

I do like those calculators on the site Thanks..

I never said i was smarter than you or anyone else. There is a purpose for what i did. You refuse to believe that. If you think it should be different,draw a sketch and post it.

I have no idea what your last post is saying. Is any of based on proven engineering principals or personal experience with structural design? Its easy to say that someone elses idea wont work but when you have to come up with a better idea i dont see anything. You said that if I cant see that what your saying is right than its no skin off your teeth. Whos calling who stupid?

You say:

"it just doesn't matter if they (the vertical tube) are at the floor or at 6" length under the dies other than minor differences with all else the same.."

What the hell does that mean and what are you basing that comment on ? Your gut feeling?


The intent of this thread is to find out what feature experienced users would like to see in there press. You stated that you havent built a press yet. so what are you basing all these comments on? Maybe this is a comunication issue. I tried to use basic examples to illistrate what my design is based on but instead of looking at the big picture you tell me im wrong about that as well.

 

[Dan Gray]

no based on what you have shown right here.
I'm pretty sure we're not getting anywhere other than you getting hot under the collar for I don't know what reason other than you don't under stand it in as simple as I could put it. try it this way..

based on what you have shown right here don't change a thing other than
take your end welds out of your horizontal tubes
(both ends) and at the bottom of the vertical tubes.

now cut off a length of the vertical tubes up to a point of 6" of the top of them
( them being the vertical tubes.) 6" or 7" it don't matter...
now re weld exactly as you did before, to re attach them again
the only thing you'll loose is length of the vertical tubes.. and maybe some inward flex on the side tubes (the horizontal tubes) under pressure

I'm not tiring to changing your way or thoughts.. I'm just asking why not?
at the beginning of the thread you said you didn't know anything I took you at your word..
and I thought you believed that just because the center point of the vertical tubes were laying on the floor
you'd believe the floor would stop the ripping or tearing if the lower part gave way..
I don't know you from Adam so I took you at your word...

I said my first forging press
as a tool an die maker I worked with 50 ton flywheel/ crank type presses
I can show you where one bit me once
the plant was a press plant it's what we did, we stamped steel and ran injection molding.

I made dies for these and set them up..I'm not picking a fight with you,
just trying to get a point across..
thought it is not off topic you ask what would make things better..if you want to be negative about questions
I'll not post anylonger on the subject..

 

[Dan Gray]

OK this is what I'm saying..what would the difference be..

 

[allan lanigan]

I like Dan's setup,as for the squaring dies i think that is a great idea,but i would design it so the dies would slide and have a direct downward force on the working die....Keep the ideas coming.....

 

[Dan Gray]

Mike thanks for the return call.
I just wished I were here or you were there for the calls..

you mentioned an example with a 2x4 if attached by the ends say 2" off the floor and you stepped on it , it would have a deflection. yes agree.
please look at the picture..

and tell me if I don't understand this
Please
consider this unit as over powered and will bend or brake things..

when you have pressure at A and B you have downward force on the
J columns ,,this
in turn would place downward pressure on P (the lower horizontal tubes)
if enough strain was applied to B, J, and either P bent or sheared the end welds
noting
that this unit is not bolted to the floor...
you are saying that because P is laying on the floor,Tubes E and D would not raise because of the pressure at A?
is this what you are saying to me?

 

[Tarl_Cabot]

Gawd! You all are not going to believe this, I'm on my way to the July3rd/4th BBQ and blowout in GA at my friends farm and passed by a small metalworkign shop...out front is the "bone-yard" Scrap, etc. and sitting right in the middle of it is a PRESS! Not just any press, but a BIG press! The cylinder (it's an H-frame) looked to be at lease an 8", probably a 100,000lb puppy....

Hee Hee...I'm going to saunter in there tuesday and casually inquire about the
"scrap" press...LOL Who knows I may get it for a song...LOL

I'll keep the group posted....gotta figure how to get it in my shop though...LOL...It's pretty tall...

 

[Ron Claiborne]

Well I have not been back to this thread in a few days and am saddened that it has taken this turn that we cant agree to disagree .and that it has to take a personal attack .
I liked the idea that the thread was started and the direction it was taking , to ask what you wanted in a Dream press .
I thought that I would learn as did Mr kanter
thanks Mr kanter for starting the thread I found it interesting , I like you am always looking for ways to build a better mouse trap ,I would like to say more but with hold in fear of sounding like a cheep add for my self of whitch I have been accused in the past but I would like for this thread to continue in a fact finding or just plane old what the hech you would like on a press ---- o BTW cup holders are great to have on a press , Mr canter keep up the good work and thanks for shearing it with us
Bowie

 

[Ron Claiborne]

i have been giving the spring fuller a lot of thought in a press what do you think of that /
Do you think it would be a good addtion or not
bowie

 

[ysforge]

someone said
a 1 hp motor at 3450 has 1/2 hp
gear it down to 1750 and your back to the 1 hp..

Not to get technical, but the reality is, 1 hp is 1 hp at whatever speed you have. HP is a function of speed @ torque, so if something puts out 1 hp, the speed doesn't matter, it's 1 hp, if you gear it down, it'll still be 1 hp, but the torque will be increased... I think you had the concept right, but the variables wrong.

Sorry, sorry... I know I'm changing the subject.

(Why does everybody seem so cranky lately, the heat maybe?)

Tony

 

[adammichael]

Well I have not been back to this thread in a few days and am saddened that it has taken this turn that we cant agree to disagree .and that it has to take a personal attack .
I liked the idea that the thread was started and the direction it was taking , to ask what you wanted in a Dream press .
I thought that I would learn as did Mr kanter
thanks Mr kanter for starting the thread I found it interesting , I like you am always looking for ways to build a better mouse trap ,I would like to say more but with hold in fear of sounding like a cheep add for my self of whitch I have been accused in the past but I would like for this thread to continue in a fact finding or just plane old what the hech you would like on a press ---- o BTW cup holders are great to have on a press , Mr canter keep up the good work and thanks for shearing it with us
Bowie

Dan and I had a comunication problem that was easily cleared up with a phone call. In no way was I implying that anyone on this thread is stupid. I have a background in structural engineering and have designed weldments for some of the biggest company's in the world. I have no experience with forging or making mosaic damascus.

I have already fabricated this press (minus the guide system) and if you look at the front you will see the same construction as an I-beam. The 2 vertical tubes being the web of the I-beam. The outside vertical tubes box in the "I-beam". This is a very strong and rigid design. Dan is correct in his second last post that the vertical tubes could be shorter. The unit is much stronger with the longer tubes thou and at a very small increase in price. ( the extra 12 or so inches of structural tube. Remember, Im using drop off for this.)

A w4x13 I-beam has a height of 4.16", a flange thickness of .345 inches and a web thickness of .280". A w18x114 I-beam has a height of 18.48", flange thickness of .991" and a web thickness of .595" There is a substantial hieght increase in the stronger I-beam. There is also a reason i used 2 vertical tubes instead of one. It shortens up the distance between the inside vertical tubes and the outside vertical tubes. This address' the point Dan made in his last post. If you tested this frame to the point of destruction, the side tubes would raise up with enough pressure.(i think alot of other bad things would happen first tho) The shorter distance between those tubes means the welds on the one inch plate are closer together which means there is less flex in the plate. That and all the welds on the bottom should keep those side tubes from raising up.

Mr. Claiborne, I for one, would love to hear anything you have to say about this design or anything else related to a forging press. I would not take it as trying to sell your press. (if you do end up selling more because of it that would be great). I am sure the boxed in anvil plates on your press are very costly to weld and 1" plate isnt cheap either. Maybe a I-beam cross section with a short vertical section like Dan suggested will improve the stength as well as take some cost out of it. I think that would benifit everyone. Please understand, I am not bashing you press or implying that there is anything at all wrong with it the way it is now. One of the major responsibilities of my day job is to find ways to cut cost without sacrificing quality and thats what im trying to do with my press. Let me rephrase that. I am trying to make it as simple as possible and keep it as strong as possible.

K.I.S.S = Keep it super simple.
S.W.A.G = Stupid wild ass guess.

Both should be used when designing

If i had to do this again I would remove one of the bottom horizontal tubes and weld it directly under the 1" anvil plate. I believe that would be an improvement on what I already have.

Again, I am sorry if I offended anyone as it was not my intension. I have the utmost respect for everyone on this forum. ( even Mike Fitzgerald )

 

[adammichael]

i have been giving the spring fuller a lot of thought in a press what do you think of that /
Do you think it would be a good addtion or not
bowie

I realize I am showing my forging ignorance but what is a fuller and why would you want it in a press?

 

[J. MacDonald]

Wow! In the flesh, that looks about as sturdy as one could hope for.

Glad you and Dan could work out your differences.

Awesome project.

 

[fitzo]

Bowie, I would print this thread out.....

He called you Mr. Claiborne.


Nice frame, Michael. Can't wait for you to make yer first squish with that press!

 

[adammichael]

Bowie, I would print this thread out.....

He called you Mr. Claiborne.

What the hell is that supposed to mean Mr. Fitzgerald?! Are you starting with me now!!!

Havent you been following along? There is no way in HELL this thing is gonna work!! I'll probably end up embarassing myself again.

 

[fitzo]

What the hell is that supposed to mean Mr. Fitsgerald?! Are you starting with me now!!!

Havent you been following along? There is no way in HELL this thing is gonna work!! I'll probably end up embarassing myself again.

I am simply implying that I doubt he hears that very often.... I know I wouldn't call him that. And I'm sure if Phyllis does it's not in a friendly tone.....

BTW, the avatar foto was taken about 5 feet from that old son of East Tennessee at his home and I was doing my best to miss so I could say "gee, Bowie, I feel real bad about that new ding in your Hay Budden." "Mr Claiborne" is a good man..... proud to call him my friend. Hi, Ron!

 

[adammichael]

I am simply implying that I doubt he hears that very often.... I know I wouldn't call him that. And I'm sure if Phyllis does it's not in a friendly tone.....

BTW, the avatar foto was taken about 5 feet from that old son of East Tennessee at his home and I was doing my best to miss so I could say "gee, Bowie, I feel real bad about that new ding in your Hay Budden."

I always call someone Mr. when i respect there work and opinions. You know what i mean Mike? Sorry, I meant Mr. Fitzgerald