What is your dream forging press?

NickWheeler · Jul 1, 2005

Michael-

As one very low on the totem pole was an engineer, to a high mucky-muck one, I think you're over-engineering this.

I could have built one, but ended up buying a press from Jeff Carlisle.

With the proper dies, there is very little you can't do with it.

Die change-out is very important, and you want it to be easy AND fast.

Since you work at a big fab shop, I'm sure having laser cut dies isn't a big deal. I'm jealous!

Almost all of my dies are combination dies. Even though you can change dies very quickly in my press, it just makes good sense to be able to draw a billet out with drawing dies and then just slide it over to get it flat.

Most of the "problems" people associate with working hot steel under a press are operator error and poorly designed dies.

Just my $0.03

-Nick-

adammichael · Jul 1, 2005

NickWheeler said:
Michael-

As one very low on the totem pole was an engineer, to a high mucky-muck one, I think you're over-engineering this.

I could have built one, but ended up buying a press from Jeff Carlisle.

With the proper dies, there is very little you can't do with it.

Die change-out is very important, and you want it to be easy AND fast.

Since you work at a big fab shop, I'm sure having laser cut dies isn't a big deal. I'm jealous!

Almost all of my dies are combination dies. Even though you can change dies very quickly in my press, it just makes good sense to be able to draw a billet out with drawing dies and then just slide it over to get it flat.

Most of the "problems" people associate with working hot steel under a press are operator error and poorly designed dies.

Just my $0.03

-Nick-

You ar absolutly correct. I am over-engineering the Hell out of this!

I have access to a few materials at no cost. 4x6x.375 tube, 2" cold rolled round bar and enough 3/8 and 1/2" mild steel drop off to choke a horse. I also have access to 2 3500 watt lasers so i need to utilize what i have and can get for free in order to do this. I couldnt afford it otherwise. I know if I planned on marketing these that no one would be able to afford them with the materials i am using but its what i can get so its what i have to use.

Lasers are cool so if you have any ideas for a laser project let me know. I'll see what i can do.

Ron Claiborne · Jul 1, 2005

I like some of what your doing . Some I feel needs tweaking some

The pressure is going to be at the dies until you place work off center then the peace will divert to the off sit, and tonnage to the sides into the guide most likely causing it to gall and building up pressure to the point that it will release all at once ,if the pieces have to much play it can get really scary, you will bend one guide one way and pull the other depending on witch side you place ;the work peace the offset squaring dies can bring on side pressure . The guides need to be as thick as you can get if you feel you need round tubs for guides also I think that they need to run longer up the legs to get away from galling and build stronger resistant to side pressure .
But a very interesting concept
the leg have no pressure at all the pressure is at the anvil you extended the legs to the ground under the anvil it will take on a load I would place more welding at the anvils to insure better strength.
As has been mentioned if the anvil gives the legs under the anvils will move down or the head will lift a few more pieces of steel will stop that

Dont misunderstand I`m not taking your press apart its just places I would be concerned with I think this is a good thread and thanks for sharing it with us ,I think it will work
Bowie Damascus free

Plain ol Bill · Jul 1, 2005

There was a question in here somewhere about a 1750 RPM motor versus a 3450. One thing to keep in mind is that the faster motor will spin the pump twice as fast which = twice the fluid flow for the same buck and yes it would be louder, but not that much more than the slower motor.
My press utilizes two cylinders, a 4" and a 6". I rarely use the 4" side but it is nice to have it when you need two sets of dies very quickly. "The beast" puts out an honest 30 ton. Just a personal thing but I don't care for the "H" frame presses and hate working on a press where the bottom die is the one that moves up and down. That is enough to give you motion sickness. There is a pic of mine on Don Foggs site if you want to peek. I have moved the power unit outside the shop since those pics. Another personal opinion is that Bowie is probably building the best bang for the buck on todays market.
http://www.dfoggknives.com/Press Gallery 4.htm

Ron Claiborne · Jul 1, 2005

Bill i think you have built the strogest press in the world i dont think they will be any flexin that I beam good to see your still around miss talking with you and thanks for the kind words
are you taking good care of my milling machine
bowie damascus free

fitzo · Jul 1, 2005

I'm glad you put the pics up with the dragon head, Bill!

Do you by chance have a link to a pic of your forge? I was telling Michael here how much i like your forge for billet work.

Plain ol Bill · Jul 2, 2005

Mike check out the shop tour on my web site for a pic of the forge. If you want me to take some for you let me know what you want to see and I'll get you some shots. I just sent you some pics of the belt conversion on the surface grinder.

http://www.billsblades.com/

fitzo · Jul 2, 2005

Thanks, Bill!

I was just looking at the belt conversion fotos. Came out great!

Dan Gray · Jul 2, 2005

adammichael said:
Thats the case with any press that has weld on it. If you look at the bottom of the frame it is welded solid all around as well as vetically up the front and back sides of both tubes. The 1" plate is also welded solid all around on both tubes. The shear strength od the welds far exceeds what the pump and cylinder is capible of producing. (provided were not talking about a 100 ton press).

On an I-beam press the welds on the top plate holding the cylinder is the weak link. If those welds fail the top goes up.

If you take a standard H press with a boxed in lower plate, The force is concentrated in the center of the vertical tubes. The strength of the welds are the week link. If the welds fail the bottom plate drops instead of the side tubes going up.

Strong welds are the key to any press holding up under pressure. (Get it? under PRESSURE.)

Strong welds are the key to any press holding up under pressure. (Get it? under PRESSURE.)

Strong welds are the key to any press holding up under pressure.

as well it should be..

standard H press?
as I said The welds are the biggest problem alone with steel bending.

Ron has a good point..I over looked..
why do you have the vertical tubing going to the bottom ??
it just adds weight and more work. your horizontal tubes are taking the pressure anyway, other than the mid die plate..other than that it seems to be an expensive shelf hangers ..shorter one would work just as well un less you gusset them up to the outside tubes for added suport..

and again if you would,,
on your cross tubes ? what pressure will they take at that width?

and please where are you getting the figures on the weld shear pressure?
wouldn't this depend on who and how good the welds are??

I'm just asking questions ... I don't know anything, and I don't claim to know any more than that..

fitzo · Jul 2, 2005

Mike's not only a certified welder himself, Dan, he's the chief of engineering for a fab company. He's got calculation programs and I think has Machinerys Handbook memorized.......

Dan Gray · Jul 2, 2005

Plain ol Bill said:
There was a question in here somewhere about a 1750 RPM motor versus a 3450. One thing to keep in mind is that the faster motor will spin the pump twice as fast which = twice the fluid flow for the same buck and yes it would be louder, but not that much more than the slower motor.

Bill we had this discussion about rpm's and HP somewhere on BFC?
( not you and I) we as in the forum..

someone said
a 1 hp motor at 3450 has 1/2 hp
gear it down to 1750 and your back to the 1 hp..

they said the rpm's are just for the application.

so if this the case,, you may have double the flow at 3450 but 1/2 the HP, which to me means all is = ...at either of the motors rpm's

Dan Gray · Jul 2, 2005

fitzo said:
Mike's not only a certified welder himself, Dan, he's the chief of engineering for a fab company. He's got calculation programs and I think has Machinerys Handbook memorized.......

Mike
I need all the help I can get right

fitzo · Jul 2, 2005

Dan Gray said:
Mike
I need all the help I can get right

You and me both, brother....

adammichael · Jul 3, 2005

Dan Gray said:
Mike
I need all the help I can get right

I am not going to bore everyone with formulas and calculations. The topic of this thread went from what we all would like to see in a forging press to wether or not I know anything about beam deflection, structural modulus or welding specs.

I drew up the folowing diagrams to illistrate the design of this h-frame. The 2 vertical center tubes serve a very important function. They are not there to add weight, increase cost or hold up the die shelves.

There are many books written about weld specs and structural design. There are also hundreds of web sites like this one.

http://www.engineersedge.com/Design_Data.shtml

If anyone here has ever framed a wall with a long window in it you probably put some vertical studs in the middle of the window. The studs carry the load of the window down to the floor. There are many more examples of this type of aplication, hanging cloths on a cloths line out side is another. When the cloths line drops you put a wood pole on the line to support it in the center. I am in no way saying this is the perfect way to build an H-frame press. Everyone here has the right to do it what ever way they want. All im saying is there is a reason for everything i did on this design and the numbers i have support the validity of it.

Some of the concerns about the ram guide are very thought provoking and I have seriously considered them. I will still try it the way i have it drawn because I think it will work. If it doesnt I will post the results and we will all have learned something. Maybe it will get us thinking in a different direction and someone will come up with the ultimate ram guide because of my failure.

I hope this response doesnt sound defensive because i dont mean it to be. I would like to keep the discusion about features everyone would like to see and save structural integrity for another thread.

J. MacDonald · Jul 3, 2005

Wow!I never questioned your knowledge about beam deflection. All I know is that beam deflection suffers in direct relationship to the beer additives used.

Looks solid to me.

adammichael · Jul 3, 2005

jmxcpter said:
Wow!I never questioned your knowledge about beam deflection. All I know is that beam deflection suffers in direct relationship to the beer additives used.

Looks solid to me.

Im with you, You cant argue with beer logic.

Wait until you see the cup holder I designed for this thing.

NickWheeler · Jul 3, 2005

Michael-

I hope I didn't come off as bashing you or your plan.

Sometimes my engineering degree really bites me, as I overplan everything in the shop when sometimes I need to drop the pencil and start working. You know, that whole dilemna between farticators and angrineers. Er, I mean fabricators and engineers

Working with what you have available is definitely going to have a strong influence on your press. I wish I had access to all that you do. Maybe if I was still a smart drawerer, and not just a dumb Nifemakr, I would have that access

I'd like to TIG weld everything in my shop. BUT, I have a MIG, and don't know how to TIG weld

So I use what I got

I'm sure this will be a whiz-bang press when you get it completed!!!

-Nick-

adammichael · Jul 3, 2005

NickWheeler said:
Michael-

I hope I didn't come off as bashing you or your plan.

Sometimes my engineering degree really bites me, as I overplan everything in the shop when sometimes I need to drop the pencil and start working. You know, that whole dilemna between farticators and angrineers. Er, I mean fabricators and engineers

Working with what you have available is definitely going to have a strong influence on your press. I wish I had access to all that you do. Maybe if I was still a smart drawerer, and not just a dumb Nifemakr, I would have that access

I'd like to TIG weld everything in my shop. BUT, I have a MIG, and don't know how to TIG weld So I use what I got

I'm sure this will be a whiz-bang press when you get it completed!!!
-Nick-

I thought you were complimenting me not bashing me. Being an Engineer yourself you know that some things arent what they seem and I dont want to turn this into a class on stress analysis. I know nothing about forging press's and nothing about making damascus. I have a background in structural engineering. I just want to know what people like you would like to see in a forging press. I was half joking about a cup holder but if that is something that would help the process of making damascus im going to put a cup holder on my press. Thats what i meant about nothing is to insignificant.

I think it would be benificial to have 1 die that does the work of 3 dies. If its not posible because the billet isnt centered under the ram than the next logical step, to me, would be to redesign the guide system so that it can handle the force associated with having the billet off center. Saying it cant be done doesnt solve the problem. Maybe what Ive drawn wont work but wouldnt it be great if it did?

Dont be afraid to try new things, remember, Professionals built the Titanic, Amatures built the Ark

(Even if it doesnt work, it looks cool and thats got to count for something, right

)

fitzo · Jul 3, 2005

What happens if, instead of having the clevis "bracket" a central potential "pivot point" upright on the "top plate", one instead has two upright pieces with the clevis in between them. That would separate the stress farther outwards but I don't know if clevises (clevii??) are meant to operate like that. Perhaps the gussets in the drawing do exactly that. Just thinking out loud....

Dan Gray · Jul 3, 2005

adammichael said:
I am not going to bore everyone with formulas and calculations. The topic of this thread went from what we all would like to see in a forging press to wether or not I know anything about beam deflection, structural modulus or welding specs. I drew up the folowing diagrams to illistrate the design of this h-frame. The 2 vertical center tubes serve a very important function. They are not there to add weight, increase cost or hold up the die shelves.

If anyone here has ever framed a wall with a long window in it you probably put some vertical studs in the middle of the window. The studs carry the load of the window down to the floor. There are many more examples of this type of aplication, hanging cloths on a cloths line out side is another. When the cloths line drops you put a wood pole on the line to support it in the center. I am in no way saying this is the perfect way to build an H-frame press. Everyone here has the right to do it what ever way they want. All im saying is there is a reason for everything i did on this design and the numbers i have support the validity of it.

Some of the concerns about the ram guide are very thought provoking and I have seriously considered them. I will still try it the way i have it drawn because I think it will work. If it doesnt I will post the results and we will all have learned something. Maybe it will get us thinking in a different direction and someone will come up with the ultimate ram guide because of my failure.

I hope this response doesnt sound defensive because i dont mean it to be. I would like to keep the discusion about features everyone would like to see and save structural integrity for another thread.

The point I was making (and yes I have put in windows also)
if the window sill is strong it don't have to be setting on the floor and most don't. it doesn't apply here
in the cases of the window your holding the roof up to put it in simple terms or the upper sill that would take care of it self
if no weight from the rood or upper floors.
, windows do not have pressure pushing up.

I asked a simple question and it's you that is getting defensive
with these

there is no need of that.

adammichael said:
I am in the process of designing a forging press and i got to thinking:

#1 I dont know what the Hell im doing.

and

#2 The guys on Bladeforums know what there doing, I'll ask them!

I need to know what you wish you would have done different or what you wish you wouldnt have done when you made your press. Keep cost out of it. I want to know what you want on your press. Dont worry about saving $20 here or $50 there.

you asked everyone I thought?
I will take that comment as meant for me..

I hope you didn't think I was bashing you,, you asked and it lead to interesting things. because I am in the process myself,
I do have a tool an die maker back ground, making dies was my main job, but dies a lot more complicated than forge die..
I don't have an engineering degree but I never thought myself stupid either
though I can't spell worth Crap and that a lone will nail me most of the time.

before we learn more we knew less back when right

the thing about this forum we have guys that know about stuff we never would learn any other way , it's purrty damn cool I think..
I don't bash, I learn..and to do so I ask and point out..

don't even think I have a problem with any of this, I don't it's the way it goes..
the only ones I'd ever have a problem with would be RRR well I won't go there
because I don't believe any of you guys are like that..