What kind of folder do you really want?

[Vivi]

Even in group A there are a few notable blade steel surprises. It'll be interesting to watch the next few years and see what trends occur with lower priced knives and blade steels. 50$ Queens with D2, the 40$ Native in S30V, many 40$ Spydercos in VG10 etc. I know I'm missing some...

 

[Lucky Strike]

I'd say the Group A+....i'm currently getting knives in the $40-60 range

 

[mister_wilburn]

..........

 

[puukkoman]

IMO, those classifications are pretty irrelevant when taken on their own. Price is not the sole factor that should be taken into account when buying a knife.
Intended use and suitability for such outweighs price by a long shot. For example, both a Ka-Bar Dozier Thorn and a Sebenza are uncomfortable to use for a continuous length of time, when compared to the comfy handle of a Buck 110 (try it, you'll see... those knives will give you "hot spots" in a hurry), and their prices vary wildly.
What "kind" of folder you prefer has nothing to do with price.

 

[Hair]

Does anyone else find allenC's comments extremely sickening, misinformed, and just plain ignorant?

Sorry, but I pay more for knives for very damn good reasons- though our reasons may differ. I've owned knives from all three groups, and for me, the knives in group C almost always offer far more for the money (yes, PER DOLLAR) than those in the other two groups.

If you are interested in "performance" for as little money as possible, get an Opinel and be done with it.

But there is more to knives than performance for the money. And there is more to performance than push cutting paper. Performance is how the knife does its job, which includes everything from how well it connects to you in a caping grip, to how safe it is to close. I've never used a less expensive folding knife that is as functionally well thought-out as an SMF. Or transitions from grip to grip like a Sebenza. They absolutly blow away every BM, Spydie, Buck, Kershaw etc that I have used... in terms of overall performance, IMO. Performance to you may mean just cutting a piece of paper. Get an Opinel and then you can put down damn near everyone else and not feel jealous anymore. Want S30V? Get a Native. No reason to spend a lot of extra money on anything else. An Opinel will cut stuff, so anything more is just a poser knife, right?

I won't put anyone down for buying any knife. Do you think you can try explaining your preference without making other preferences seem stupid? I'm not exactly in the dark on the facts. Thanks.

Maybe I am just being too sensitive, but I think it is just ignorant to compare a Sebenza (for example) to Tommi jeans. A CRK is more expensive for very damn good reasons, not just because of the brand name and to sell to ignorant posers. I know the difference between a Sebenza and a 710 and a Manix and a Native. I know which is the best. I know which is the best for the money. The Sebenza is the answer in both cases, at least based on my wants and needs. Yours may vary.

Don't you own a custom Buck 110? Do those water buffulo scales increase the performance? Why didn't you just get the BG-42 replacement blade on a normal 110? It would be way cheaper. Seems like you paid a lot of extra money for no performance gain. Sounds like Tommi jeans... right?

I am not taking what you said to heart. I don't even own any Group C knives (folders) anymore. I just think it is disrespectful and a disgrace to the knifemakers that make very worthy knives that cost more than *YOU* are willing to spend. Don't ignore the advantages that such knives hold just because you don't want to pay for those advantages.

 

[kamkazmoto]

I own knives from all three catagories but I find that I usually carry a SAK one hander or super tinker so I guess that I am in cat A. These knives do everything that I would ask from a knife and more. They are inexpensive so I don't worry about replacement cost if lost or broken. I admit to carrying a dress knife from cat C ( a Brian Tighe My Tighe or William Henry T12) but these aren'r EDC knives.

 

[a223cat]

I like knives. They could be from any of the categories. My usual carry is a hand made folder costing between the B and C prices. I like Bucks, have 3 of them. I have a Sebenza and like it. I also have fixed blades and enjoy those.

It isnt about cost. Its about the knife. looks, steel, fit, whatever I use to determine that I like a knife. If they were all free I would own the same knives!

 

[huugh]

If I were rich I wouldn't get any of A, B or C class listed in first post. I would go for customs only.

As I am not rich I am bound with A and B

(To tell the truth I find there are only two reasonable categories - under $30 and over $100. Anything in between seems to lack significant reason for me to buy... )

 

[Hawkings]

I would have to go with group A.
Because as great a knife a Sebenza is(or any 450$+ blade fpr that matter) , it's a single knife blade that will do only 1 thing.
Thats just not enough for an EDC (For me any way) it can not turn a screw, open a bottle of wine nor does it have any sissors ect.
The non-cutting aspect of SAK is just to darn usefull in everyday life to give up for a single blade, no matter how good or great it is.

 

[hardheart]

Does anyone else find allenC's comments extremely sickening, misinformed, and just plain ignorant?

Sorry, but I pay more for knives for very damn good reasons- though our reasons may differ. I've owned knives from all three groups, and for me, the knives in group C almost always offer far more for the money (yes, PER DOLLAR) than those in the other two groups.

If you are interested in "performance" for as little money as possible, get an Opinel and be done with it.

But there is more to knives than performance for the money. And there is more to performance than push cutting paper. Performance is how the knife does its job, which includes everything from how well it connects to you in a caping grip, to how safe it is to close. I've never used a less expensive folding knife that is as functionally well thought-out as an SMF. Or transitions from grip to grip like a Sebenza. They absolutly blow away every BM, Spydie, Buck, Kershaw etc that I have used... in terms of overall performance, IMO. Performance to you may mean just cutting a piece of paper. Get an Opinel and then you can put down damn near everyone else and not feel jealous anymore. Want S30V? Get a Native. No reason to spend a lot of extra money on anything else. An Opinel will cut stuff, so anything more is just a poser knife, right?

I won't put anyone down for buying any knife. Do you think you can try explaining your preference without making other preferences seem stupid? I'm not exactly in the dark on the facts. Thanks.

Maybe I am just being too sensitive, but I think it is just ignorant to compare a Sebenza (for example) to Tommi jeans. A CRK is more expensive for very damn good reasons, not just because of the brand name and to sell to ignorant posers. I know the difference between a Sebenza and a 710 and a Manix and a Native. I know which is the best. I know which is the best for the money. The Sebenza is the answer in both cases, at least based on my wants and needs. Yours may vary.

Don't you own a custom Buck 110? Do those water buffulo scales increase the performance? Why didn't you just get the BG-42 replacement blade on a normal 110? It would be way cheaper. Seems like you paid a lot of extra money for no performance gain. Sounds like Tommi jeans... right?

I am not taking what you said to heart. I don't even own any Group C knives (folders) anymore. I just think it is disrespectful and a disgrace to the knifemakers that make very worthy knives that cost more than *YOU* are willing to spend. Don't ignore the advantages that such knives hold just because you don't want to pay for those advantages.

AllenC's comments mirror mine exactly. Filling a post with IMOs and 'yours may vary' while saying that a Sebenza is superior in grip changes, or that how well a knife 'connects' in a caping grip is important, is silly. You previously got into quite the extended argument about how ergonomics was somehow irrelevant. That creating a design through study and experimentation which satisified 95% of the population did not provide an advantage, because there was still that 5% who wouldn't like it. Then you come here and say that Sebenzas provide an absolute advantage exactly because of the ergos. What happened to all that talk of subjectivity? Now people are ignorant for having an opposing view.

 

[T.K.C.]

Yes, AllenC's comment was sickening, misinformed, and just plain ignorant!!! That is an insult to all the custom knife makers, and to all of those of us that support them!!
The majority of my knives are from catagory C now. I love what the custom makers have to offer!! They put their heart and soul into making their knives. They are useable art to me. There are no words to explain the feeling of when I use one of my custom knives, and the pride I feel in my ownership.

 

[hardheart]

It's terrible what Frank Centofante, Allen Elishewitz, Mel Pardue, Bob Loveless, Bill Moran, Ken Onion, Al Polkowski, Howard Viele, Neil Blackwood, JD Smith, and many other knifemakers have done. They have allowed their designs to be produced on a large scale with precision machinery, while taking advantage of economies of scale to reduce cost to the consumer. What an affront to the knife culture.

What the hell is wrong with a guy like Sal Glesser? He comes up with stuff like opening holes, pocket clips, compression locks, etc. Experiments with new steels and design criteria, and all of that wasted on cheaply made mass produced crap that breaks when you look at it funny.

Allen says there's no practical performance advantage. Hair says the observed advantage is based on his personal views. TKC says the advantage is in heart, soul, pride, and art.

You pay more for Levi's than dollar store stuff because it has a higher build quality. you pay more still for Tommy because it has the same quality plus style, fit, feel. Denim is denim, as long as the color don't bleed and the stitching don't bust, the performance is the same. But if you want more, you pay more. Same for the knives. I think Porter-Cable is worth the higher price than Black & Decker, easily. don't ask me to look for art in them, though. Knives can be tools, art, or both. I myself have a little trouble seeing the art in production pieces, which is what the TC was referring to.

 

[allenC]

Well, I guess you sure told me!

Sorry, but I pay more for knives for very damn good reasons- though our reasons may differ. I've owned knives from all three groups, and for me, the knives in group C almost always offer far more for the money (yes, PER DOLLAR) than those in the other two groups.

If that's your opinion then you're certainly entitled to it.
But don't get pissed off if others disagree.
You were supposed to learn this in grade-school.

If you are interested in "performance" for as little money as possible, get an Opinel and be done with it.

Actually, I don't find the overall performance of Opinels to be all that great.
I don't prefer carbon steel blades, the Opinel's stainless blades are not that great, and the collar-locks on Opinels are not very strong.
But that's just my opinion.

But there is more to knives than performance for the money.

No kidding!!!
I never said otherwise.
I said:

"The gap between custom (and semi-custom) knives and higher-end standard production knives has steadily narrowed over the years.
So much so, that there is really no benefit to paying over $200.00 dollars for a knife, from a performance point of view."

That does not mean that there are not other reasons, which are not performance related, to buy a specific knife.

And there is more to performance than push cutting paper.

Did I ever say anything about "push paper cutting"?
Maybe you're getting your threads mixed up?

I've never used a less expensive folding knife that is as functionally well thought-out as an SMF. Or transitions from grip to grip like a Sebenza. They absolutly blow away every BM, Spydie, Buck, Kershaw etc that I have used... in terms of overall performance, IMO.

Again...if that's your opinion then great.
That's what we're here for, to hear other people's opinions.
I don't become unhinged when your opinions differ from my own...so why do you get so defensive?
Why do you feel that you need to justify buying an expensive knife to some guy on the internet?

I think everyone on this forum understands why.

Get an Opinel and then you can put down damn near everyone else and not feel jealous anymore. Want S30V? Get a Native. No reason to spend a lot of extra money on anything else. An Opinel will cut stuff, so anything more is just a poser knife, right?

Feeling jealous?
Now you're just making a fool of yourself.
Step back, take some deep breaths, and count to 100 before touching the keyboard again.

I won't put anyone down for buying any knife. Do you think you can try explaining your preference without making other preferences seem stupid? I'm not exactly in the dark on the facts. Thanks.

I did not put down anyone for buying any knife.
Did you think I was talking specifically to you?
Do you think I care what knife you buy?
Don't flatter yourself, I don't.

Maybe I am just being too sensitive, but I think it is just ignorant to compare a Sebenza (for example) to Tommi jeans.

YES! You are being way too sensitive.
Re-read my previous post....I never even mentioned the Sebenza.
For a guy who says that he does'nt even carry folders, you sure seem really defensive about the Sebenza....you even defend it against imaginary criticism.

I know the difference between a Sebenza and a 710 and a Manix and a Native. I know which is the best. I know which is the best for the money. The Sebenza is the answer in both cases, at least based on my wants and needs. Yours may vary.

Well good for you!
Don't let nobody tell you anything that does not reaffirm your own decisions and that way you'll always be happy!

Don't you own a custom Buck 110? Do those water buffulo scales increase the performance? Why didn't you just get the BG-42 replacement blade on a normal 110? It would be way cheaper. Seems like you paid a lot of extra money for no performance gain. Sounds like Tommi jeans... right?

Yep, you're right on the money....no performance gain at all.
In fact, I even prefer the flat wood scales of my Alaskan Guide 110.

But I never said that performance was the only reason to pay more.
I like it because the nickle-silver does not tarnish the way the brass does, and I'm still trying to decide if the BG-42 is better than the S30V, and the buffalo horn is very pretty...
but I would never be so foolish as to proclaim that it was better because it costed more.

I am not taking what you said to heart.

Yeah, right!

I just think it is disrespectful and a disgrace to the knifemakers that make very worthy knives that cost more than *YOU* are willing to spend. Don't ignore the advantages that such knives hold just because you don't want to pay for those advantages.

If any knifemaker took my previous post as disrespectful...well, that's just too damn bad.

It boils down to this....
You obviously think that a more expensive knife automatically offers certain advantages over a less expensive one, and I disagee.

Again....
Don't get pissed when someone offers an opinion that differs from your own.

 

[slide13]

I have owned knives from every category and, barring a few exceptions such as the venerable SAK, knives from A and B don't do much for me these days. I've learned to appreciate the extra quality and attention to detail in the higher end offerings. You may pay significantly more for small gains but to me, those gains are still worth it. Anytime you try to acheive a higher level of precision, fit, etc. you are going to be dealing within the realm of diminishing returns. For this reason many people find the knives in category C to be overpriced compared to some of the better examples from the other categories. They are entitled to that oppinion and while I do not agree, I can see the point of view from which they are approaching the situation and can respect it.

Current offerings in the lesser expensive categroies are quite nice. As custom knife designers colaberate with high quality factory producers things are just getting better and better. That being said, I still do not find them to be a comperable substitute for the real thing. A Buck/Mayo is not a real Mayo and never will be. A BM635, while an amazing knife for the price and probably my favorite production knife not produced by Chris Reeve, is not comperable to a real Blackwood. The list goes on. Inexpensive factory knives are great, they serve a purpose and do it today with better quality and style then they ever have before. To believe that they are the equivilant of higher end custom pieces however is, in my mind, simply ignorance. If you want to judge by cutting ability alone, then sure, they can match up. It's easy to make something that can cut well. Take into account the whole package. Instead consider all the following: the way it fits into the hand; the quality of the lock up; the play, or lack of it, in the blade; the way the edges are smoothed out and the overal aesthetic appeal of the piece. It is when viewed as a whole that the higher end knives shine because it is the small differences that take so much more extra work that can make all the difference.

Of course this is nothing but my oppinion. I expect many will disagree. That's ok. I like what I like and I buy it for that reason and that reason alone.

 

[pholder]

WILLIAM HENRY anyone!

 

[hardheart]

Instead consider all the following: the way it fits into the hand; the quality of the lock up; the play, or lack of it, in the blade; the way the edges are smoothed out and the overal aesthetic appeal of the piece. It is when viewed as a whole that the higher end knives shine because it is the small differences that take so much more extra work that can make all the difference.

I don't disagree that the finer points make a knife more appealing, but it still is the argument of functionality. Such as the 'fit' which has been mentioned a couple times. Yes, a comfortable handle shape with all the edges smoothed and everything radiused is great, really nice to hold. But, just about every working blade is not designed with absolute comfort in mind. Even the very high end kitchen cutlery often does not show much in the way of imagination for ergos, though balance is addressed by some. Lock up-well, I see almost no lockbacks, axis, BB, compression, stud, arc, button, or such being handmade. Most customs are liner and frame. I agree that a custom maker can take the extra time and effort for the perfecting of lockup on these. But, the variety isn't there on the custom side, and manufacturers offer alternatives in great quantites if you don't like their linerlocks. Lock relaibility just isn't an issue of massive proportion once in the realm of quality production. Aesthetics-I've seen some good looking productions, but by and large I do feel customs offer the most visual appeal.

That's the reason I like handmade knives, because they can offer great beauty. But for a user, the extra handfinishing of a custom, or even a Sebenza, is of no value to me. I have used linerless FRN lockbacks for my most demanding work, without failure. I do however also have crowbars, screwdrivers, hammers, etc., so no real abuse on folders by me.

The handmades I have now are inexpensive, but they got me a very nice mirror polished blade, lovely woods for the handle, some nice random damascus on another. Some time before I had a Tighe Tac, a Marzitelli Razier, and an art knife from a less than honorable maker who is out of the biz now. The art knife was nice, ano and machine turned Ti, walrus scales, damascus bolsters, damasteel blade, blued backspacer, all very pretty. It was also dull. The most impressive thing about the Tighe and Marzitelli? How much they looked like my mass produced productions. They didn't have a feel about them. The fact that they were so... cold, actually impressed me because it showed a machine's level of precision. but I don't need to spend hundreds of dollars to get something that reminds me of one hundred dollar's worth of knife.

 

[yahooBlade]

It is so great to read the posts, to read people's view about life as well as their passion about knife. I am sorry about the fights brought up. But I believe that this is just about the life: people fight for their beliefs. Many people here own quite some knives. It's more like a hobby for them to collect knives, instead of practical use. I am not a knife collector, but I used to collect stamps when I was young. I spent a lot of money to buy all kinds of stamps used or brand new without considering much on the cost. I just liked the feeling of looking at those stamps. I believe that this also happens to knife collectors. Knife collectors more concentrate on the unique features of knives, and perhaps the resell value in the future. They like the feel of knives without considering too much on costs and real performance of knives. However, if one purchases knife for practical use, it is a totally different story. It is a balance of feel, performance, cost and etc. What I found out is that a lot of people, who do not visit BF, actually do not really care about feel and performance of a knife much at all. They just want a knife that works, and that's it. Most of my friends are well educated, and have decent jobs. They can well afford a very expensive knife. However, if I show them a $100 knife, they probably will think that I am nuts for spending too much on a knife! That's the why I would like to know what kind of knife we would really want to choose for daily use.

 

[STEVENKIM]

I personally rather buy ONE folder from group C which I have done, then buy and experiment with a bunch of Group As and Bs.

XM-18 is really at the price of less than two folders.

 

[Nuke_Spook]

People buy different knives for different uses and for different reasons. Two people may buy (or not buy) the same style sebenza for completely different reasons. Functionality, eye appeal, positive associations, confidence in the maker or in the design, superior fit and finish, a legacy to be passed on to the next generation...the list goes on and on. It all about what you want out of the knife and what you get out of it. Short version..different strokes for different folks.

The Question: If I were to have only one knife for the rest of my life then after research I would probably go with a class "C", there probably is some marginal increase in performance and the feel-goods that go with a "nicer" knife. I will, however, probably never own a class "C" knife and probably not a whole lot of class Bs, mainly because my class A knives do everything I expect of them quite well and with a couple of exceptions (broken blade tip on a SAK) have never failed me.

As to offending custom knife makers, if the price of their knives is to high in someones opinion, then it is to high to that person, where as you may think them cheap at twice the price. No one needs to "take insult" or get offended at that.

 

[Hair]

You previously got into quite the extended argument about how ergonomics was somehow irrelevant.

No I didn't. I said they were subjective, not irrelevant. They are one of the most relevant areas of a knife. But what feels better to one may not feel better to another.

That creating a design through study and experimentation which satisified 95% of the population did not provide an advantage, because there was still that 5% who wouldn't like it.

Again, no. I didn't say created a knife that feels good to most is not an advantage. I said that a knife that feels better to most does not "feel better" than another knife, because feel is subjective and thus popularity does not determine better or worse.

Then you come here and say that Sebenzas provide an absolute advantage exactly because of the ergos.

I never said a Sebenza provided an absolute advantage. I said it felt better to me. That is worth paying for, to me. So I do not feel in the dark on the facts for having bought a Sebenza.

Now people are ignorant for having an opposing view.

No, people are ignorant for making ignorant statements. I am not saying allenC is ignorant for having a different view. I am saying he is ignorant for saying I am ignorant for having a different view.

No one said anything was wrong with less expensive knives, or Sal Glesser. The problem is that some people are saying there is something wrong with more expensive knives, and the people that buy them.

You follow now?

allenC- Your post has no real substance or raises any real points, so I will not reply to it point by point. But you now seem to recant and say "well, if that is your opinion, fine". That is all I am saying, and all I was saying in the first place. My problem with you is that your first post doesn't say "this is what I like and if you like different things, fine." it says that knives more than $200 offer no real advantage are you compare the people that buy them to people that buy Tommi jeans just because of the status and brand name.

See the difference?

I am not pissed off because you have a different opinion. I am pissed off because you are a close-minded and insulting person. I do not need people to reaffirm my choices. But it seems that you need to put down others to reaffirm yours.

As to offending custom knife makers, if the price of there knives is to high in someones opinion, then it is to high to that person, where as you may think them cheap at twice the price. No one needs to "take insult" or get offended at that.

The problem isn't saying they are too expensive. The problem is saying there are more expensive for no good reason and just like charging more for a different brand name and no actual improvements. allenC's comments were plain ignorant.