What kind of folder do you really want?

[JurT]

I'm for group C. I've a SMF recurve and I'm thinking of buying a Wilkins. But I'm not sure which model.

 

[Redguy]

My current EDC is in group B and I like to use knives made with good materials, but since there are a lot of very good, inexpensive knives recently even from very good, respectable companies (Benchmade, Kershaw, Spyderco), I tend to go with group A in the future.

 

[hardheart]

No I didn't. I said they were subjective, not irrelevant. They are one of the most relevant areas of a knife. But what feels better to one may not feel better to another.


Again, no. I didn't say created a knife that feels good to most is not an advantage. I said that a knife that feels better to most does not "feel better" than another knife, because feel is subjective and thus popularity does not determine better or worse.


I never said a Sebenza provided an absolute advantage. I said it felt better to me. That is worth paying for, to me. So I do not feel in the dark on the facts for having bought a Sebenza.

But feeling better to you is not a 'fact' that can be used to justify the market price. You bought it because of the feel, someone else bought it because of the bushing, someone else buys one because they read about it on BF all the time. So, where's the actual justification in price? I personally say it is in the precision fit, as that increases the manufacturing cost and leads to a higher selling price. If having the CRK stamp adds a few more dollars as well, so be it.

Ralph Lauren produced Polo, Dillard's, and Penney Fox brand shirts. The same shirts, but what was the price difference? Yet quality would be a justification for some, even when there was no real difference. I'm not saying the Sebenza isn't higher quality, but that the name could feasibly add to the price. You don't see CRK knives on clearance all that often. Benchmade with their maap is trying to do the same (as is Bradley) So, did you think the Sebbie felt really good and thought it was worth it, or did you sit there wodering why it cost more than other production pieces and settled on the excellent feel of grip changes? The answer will be different for different people.

What advantage do ergos provide if you can't say a product feels better due to them? Ergonomics is used to increase the efficiency and practicality of design, so as to improve user experiences. If you can't say something feels better due to ergos, then ergos become unimportant. There is a Sebenza clone on eknifeworks, cheap as hell. It has the same profile as a Sebbie. I could say it feels as good, or better, than the real thing. Now the feel of a Sebbie does not justify the price. The steel and F&F could, but being a subjective matter, I could say they don't. Maybe I like to sharpen a lot. Maybe I like the sloppy F&F because it hurts my hand. You said that due to the subjective nature of feel, a painful, abrasive design could actually be 'better' because a small amount of the population preferred physical pain. Therefore, Sebbies, Obenaufs, Carsons, Doziers, etc. are not justified because their F&F does not satisfy that group.

No, people are ignorant for making ignorant statements. I am not saying allenC is ignorant for having a different view. I am saying he is ignorant for saying I am ignorant for having a different view.

No one said anything was wrong with less expensive knives, or Sal Glesser. The problem is that some people are saying there is something wrong with more expensive knives, and the people that buy them.

You follow now?

absolutely. In AllenC's subjective estimation, more expensive knives are not worth the price. In your subjective estimation, they are. Allen said he sees no advantage beyond status, because his subjective gauge of performance shows no appreciable increase compared to price. Yours does. Allen is ignorant, you are not. Most likely because he lacks the intelligence and/or refinement to appreciate the elegant, simple beauty of a hand finished creation. Or something.

 

[allenC]

In my opinion....
For Group C the price-to-performance ratio is extremely poor.

The actual tangible differences between a $400.00 dollar knife and a $200.00 knife are not great enough to justify the extra money.

There are, however, certain intangible differences....pride of ownership, elitism, uniqueness, connection with a custom maker, and such...that might make one pay more, even if some of those intangible differences exist only in the buyer's head.

But actual tangible differences?
Certainly not.
Consider the Sebenza and the Kershaw Bump or the Bradley Alias....
All are titanium framelocks, all have top-notch blade-steel, they all cut well by all accounts, and they all have excellent craftsmanship by all accounts.
So why is there such a difference in price?
Why nearly $400.00 dollars for a Sebenza, when a Bump can be had for about $160.00 dollars?

One reason is because Chris Reeve engages in a form of "price fixing".

Another reason is because there exists some folks who don't mind paying the asking price regardless of the reason.

 

[slide13]

In my opinion....
For Group C the price-to-performance ratio is extremely poor.

The actual tangible differences between a $400.00 dollar knife and a $200.00 knife are not great enough to justify the extra money.

There are, however, certain intangible differences....pride of ownership, elitism, uniqueness, connection with a custom maker, and such...that might make one pay more, even if some of those intangible differences exist only in the buyer's head.

But actual tangible differences?
Certainly not.
Consider the Sebenza and the Kershaw Bump or the Bradley Alias....
All are titanium framelocks, all have top-notch blade-steel, they all cut well by all accounts, and they all have excellent craftsmanship by all accounts.
So why is there such a difference in price?
Why nearly $400.00 dollars for a Sebenza, when a Bump can be had for about $160.00 dollars?

One reason is because Chris Reeve engages in a form of "price fixing".

Another reason is because there exists some folks who don't mind paying the asking price regardless of the reason.

The other reason is that the CRK is better. It uses a pivot bushing which almost nobody else uses. This allows the knife to be assembled and disassembled easily by the user and upon putting it back together all one has to do is tigthen the pivot tight. You don't have to fiddle with it, use loc-tite, etc to try and get the pivot tension correct. Also, CRK has the best pocket clip ever in my oppinion. It may be a small thing, but I sure appreciate it.

I guess you just look at knives more simply then I do. For you it's about what the handle and blade steel are made of. For me, it's the little things that seperate a good knife from a great knife. I have still yet to find anything under the Sebenza that meets my criteria for a great knife. There are goods ones, and some are very good (BM635 for example, still my favorite in that category) but a Sebenza they are not. Just because you don't notice the difference or don't feel that the difference is worth the price premium doesn't mean others aren't more astute or appreciative.

From reading your posts you just seem very close minded about the whole discussion. Many are willing to concede your right to prefer knives in a stated price category, and I can even understand where you get your justification from, yet you insist on stating as fact that knives that we prefer are not worth it. Whatever makes you happy I guess, be it delusional or not. Take care.

 

[allenC]

I guess you just look at knives more simply then I do.

I would say that I look at knives more practically than you do.

Just because you don't notice the difference or don't feel that the difference is worth the price premium doesn't mean others aren't more astute or appreciative.

The willingness to pay more does not necessarily make one more astute, and quite often it makes one the opposite.

In any event, you're wrong, I do notice the differences.
I've used the Sebenza before and I am very familiar with it.
The pivot bushing is very nice.
The fit-and-finish is excellent.

I don't think the clip is that great, and I think the thumbstud is too sharp and could be better.

But, regardless, I cannot see that a pivot bushing and slightly better fit-and-finish are worth $200.00 additional dollars more than another outstanding knife such as the Kershaw Bump.

So let me ask you this....
If Chris Reeve decided to raise his prices, how much would you be willing to pay?

 

[slide13]

Honestly, if I had to I would likely pay up to $500 to get a Sebenza in my hands. Why, because I love the knife. For me, a small Sebenza has become my perfect EDC. The pocket clip is small and unobtrusive enough that I feel comfortable carrying it clipped to my pocket at work. I like the secondary bump in the clip because it adds a definite level of security the way it grabs onto the seam of the pocket. I find the slightly sharp thumbstud to be a blessing because if my hands are wet or otherwise slippery I can still get it open quickly and easily.

I'm glad to finally see you admit to there being difference in the quality. The Sebenza is better. Is it a night and day difference, no probably not. I notice it and it's worth it to me to pay the difference. It's not to you. That's cool, good for you. You're probably just as happy with your knife and you have a few hundred dollars left in your pocket. For me, those other knives are all lacking in one way or another when compared to the Sebenza. I don't really collect knives, I don't get much enjoyment from having a drawer full of knives. I enjoy having one excellent knife in my pocket every day and using it. I will pay extra to have what I feel is the perfect knife for me. It's better then any other knife costing less that I have ever come across. The money is not that important to me. Knives are a passion and I don't mind directing a certain amount of my discretionary income towards them. I can afford a knife like the Sebenza so that is why I have one. It's worth it to be because it is better. It's not worth it to you because it's not enough better to justify the price increase in your mind.

 

[Trout Tamer]

It seems to me that allenC is basing his judgments on the inherent value of a folding knife on different criteria than Hair or Slide13 do. From a practical-use point of view, I basically agree with allenC.

By "practical-use point of view", I mean this: a knife is meant to cut things. Physically speaking, a knife is merely a fine wedge (the blade) with an attached lever (the handle). The wedge is placed onto a medium that it is to be separated into two pieces. The lever is then depressed to achieve the separating action. So, from a functional standpoint, any piece of sharpened steel with a serviceable handle is "good 'nuf", so long as it has basic physical criteria of necessary shape, size, and hardness to do the job.

But, we all agree that there's more to a knife than a mere lever-n-wedge. That's where personal need and preference come into play. AllenC contends that knives over $200 can't deliver an extra $200 worth of performance to justify the extra bux. That is a semi-subjective statement that he perhaps over-generalized or under-qualified. From a "practical point of view", as defined above, I agree with him. *However*, that doesn't mean I share his personal "knife value criteria".

To those who have unequivocally stated that "the Sebenza is better", well, that's been discussed over and over again, 'round here I think that's a semi-subjective perspective, albeit one that Blade magazine routinely agrees with in its yearly manufacturing quality awards. Is the Sebenza hands-down better? It could very well be. Is that increase in quality worth $200 more? To allenC, absolutely not. To Hair and Slide13, you betcha. It is a completely subjective issue.

It seems to me that both camps have over-generalized their own personal views (we all do so, at times). Regardless, this is a good thread.

 

[slide13]

Good post, I think you have it all pretty much correct. Thanks.

I do disagree that I have "over-generalized" my personal views. I think I'm justified in saying that the Sebenza is better than the rest in those other groups, at least in regards to fit and finish and overall quality of construction. I make no claims stating that it is worth the price increase for anyone except myself. For me it is, and I can totally understand why it's not for others. But the rest of it...you got it all right IMO. So thanks for the insightful input.

 

[Trout Tamer]

I make no claims stating that it is worth the price increase for anyone except myself. For me it is, and I can totally understand why it's not for others. But the rest of it...you got it all right IMO. So thanks for the insightful input.

My pleasure

 

[Hair]

But feeling better to you is not a 'fact' that can be used to justify the market price.

I never said it was. I never said someone had to prefer a Sebenza to a Maxam. Please read my post before replying.

In AllenC's subjective estimation, more expensive knives are not worth the price. In your subjective estimation, they are. Allen said he sees no advantage beyond status, because his subjective gauge of performance shows no appreciable increase compared to price. Yours does. Allen is ignorant, you are not. Most likely because he lacks the intelligence and/or refinement to appreciate the elegant, simple beauty of a hand finished creation. Or something.

He's not ignorant because he disagrees with me. He is ignorant because he says there is no advantage, when there actually is (he even backtracks and admit there are advantages). I am not saying he has to agree with the advantage, or that the advantages are worth extra money. But people buy Sebenzas and the like for real reasons, not made up ones. For him to say otherwise, is ignorant, even if he doesn't like any expensive knives more than a cheap one. What don't you get?

allenC- Why do you say there is no reason to buy a Sebenza over a Bump and then list the reasons? Sebenzas have FAR better fit and finish, and a better pivot system. That may not be worth the price increase to you, but it is to many. Are they not knowing of the facts to buy a Sebenza? Are they buying it just for the brand name? Just because you are not willing to pay an extra $200 for certain improvements does not mean those improvements do not exist, as you ignorantly keep saying.

Do you think you might want to reconsider your original post?

My point is not about knife A being better or worse than knife B. I am saying knives are different. Knife A may be perfect for me while knife B is not. Knife A might be more expensive, or less expensive. It doesn't matter. People should buy that knives they fit their wants and needs.

If someone tries a wide variety of different knives, and the one that fits their hand, their pockets, and their desires the best is a Group C knife, are they not aware of the facts by spending more for something that won't cut better than a less expensive knife? **** no.

And you are very wrong to say so.

Likewise, the best knife for someone might be very inexpensive.

Knives have many subjective qualities. What one person prefers might feel horrid to the next person. I never said a Sebenza is better than any other knife as a matter of fact. Only that I haven't handled a less expensive folder that felt even half as good. To me, a Sebenza is a better value than a Manix, 710, AFCK etc... It offers more per dollar. To others, this may not be true and a Sebenza may be inferior to them than a Buck Mayo Cutback for $25. That's fine. But neither of us are not aware of the facts for liking what we like.

Starting to get it, allen? hardheart?

 

[phil000]

YAY for knife-wielding bass players, I have yet to break the 100$ on a knife, the highest being 95$ for a bm 42. However I've paid about 1300$ for a musicman sterling in a discontinued sparkle white with an 800$ Ampeg tube head and 600 for a hartke bottom...Then again we were doing some touring and honestly thoughty we'd make it (aka idiot)

My knives come from AB 40-60$ range, Natives and Benchmades...

 

[hardheart]

He's not ignorant because he disagrees with me. He is ignorant because he says there is no advantage, when there actually is (he even backtracks and admit there are advantages). I am not saying he has to agree with the advantage, or that the advantages are worth extra money. But people buy Sebenzas and the like for real reasons, not made up ones. For him to say otherwise, is ignorant, even if he doesn't like any expensive knives more than a cheap one. What don't you get?

What advantages? AllenC said the Sebenza has better F&F and the bushing is nice. Where does he declares these to be advantages? They obviously aren't to him, as they do not justify a price increase. What if he said the blue thumbstud was pretty? Is that an advantage? Is that specifically a performance advantage, which is an important part of what he uses to judge the dollar value of a knife?

allenC- Why do you say there is no reason to buy a Sebenza over a Bump and then list the reasons?

a question you immediately answer

Sebenzas have FAR better fit and finish, and a better pivot system. That may not be worth the price increase to you, but it is to many. Are they not knowing of the facts to buy a Sebenza? Are they buying it just for the brand name? Just because you are not willing to pay an extra $200 for certain improvements does not mean those improvements do not exist, as you ignorantly keep saying.

If it isn't worth the price increase, then the knife isn't worth the overall higher price, and then the tighter tolerances quite obviously aren't reasons to buy a Sebenza over a Bump for AllenC.

You are being terribly close-minded, unable to accept the viewpoint of an individual who will not follow your line of thinking and does not adhere to your decision-making criteria. It is probably a very valid statement to say that it costs more to produce a Sebenza than a BM/Kershaw/Spyderco. More labor involved for hand fitting, fewer numbers to make variable costs higher per unit, limited distribution, etc. But to say it is worth more than a BM/Kershaw/Spyderco is not a matter of just adding up the costs and tacking on desired profit contribution per unit. Each individual consumer makes that estimation.

 

[Hair]

What advantages? AllenC said the Sebenza has better F&F and the bushing is nice. Where does he declares these to be advantages? They obviously aren't to him, as they do not justify a price increase. What if he said the blue thumbstud was pretty? Is that an advantage? Is that specifically a performance advantage, which is an important part of what he uses to judge the dollar value of a knife?

Please tell me where I said that an advantage to person A has to be an advantage to person B? A Sebenza is different than a Native. Which is better? Totally subjective. A Native might be perfect for Tim, and a Sebenza perfect for Bill. For Bill, the Sebenza has advantages. Is he stupid to be willing to pay for them? I say no. Allen says yes. Allen's comments are ignorant. You are having a very hard time understanding me. Please read my posts again. All of them.

If it isn't worth the price increase, then the knife isn't worth the overall higher price, and then the tighter tolerances quite obviously aren't reasons to buy a Sebenza over a Bump for AllenC.

I never said he had to buy a Sebenza, or even want a Sebenza more than a Bump even if the Sebenza cost $5.

You are being terribly close-minded, unable to accept the viewpoint of an individual who will not follow your line of thinking and does not adhere to your decision-making criteria.

No, you have it quite wrong. I am not putting down anyone's choice in knives. I am taking issue with Allen for putting down others choice in knives. HE is being close-minded about the fact that to *SOME* people, a higher level of fit and finish, and a pivot bushing (just examples) *ARE* worth the extra money. They don't have to be worth it to him, but they are worth it to some. And those people are not ignorant of the facts for having a different opinion than him, which is what he claims. Please try to follow.

Each individual consumer makes that estimation.

Exactly *MY* point. Allen disagrees and said that people that buy knives that cost more than $200 don't know the facts. Again, I must ask you to read before you blindly and wrongly post lies and drivel. Thanks.

 

[allenC]

Okay, enough is enough.

Hair,
I don't know if you are aware but there is a policy here on the forums that prohibits personal attacks on fellow forum-members.
Folks have been banned for such personal attacks.
I do not appreciate you calling me "ignorant" or "close-minded".
In a debate, one counters the argument presented by the other person.
One does not insult and attack the other person.
I have never made any personal attacks upon you and I expect to be treated in kind.

I am not ignorant to the "virtures" (and I use that word very loosely) of a high-dollar limited production knife such as the Sebenza.
I've owned one, carried one, and cut things with one.
In my opinion, it was not worth what I gave for it.

I don't expect that everyone else will agree, and I'm not trying to change their minds.
But don't call me ignorant...I know what I'm talking about.

Do I think the Sebenza is over-priced?
Absolutely.
Do I think folks are stupid for buying one?
No.
After all, I bought one and I'm not stupid....but I was younger and less experienced concerning knives than I am today.

Like most of my fellow forum members, I've become familiar with many many knives since I discovered this forum.
I've learned so much here about knives...and I'm still learning!
And one of the things that I've learned is that there really is not that much of a difference between a $200.00 dollar knife and a $400.00 dollar knife.
Yes, there is A DIFFERENCE, but it is not the huge gap that some claim.

In my opinion, the slightly greater attention-to-detail and a pivot bushing does not make the knife perform any better, and is not worth the extra money.
Now, if you disagree with my opinion, then say so, and prove that I'm wrong (something you've failed to do so far).
But don't make personal attacks upon my character or my intellect.


Allen.

 

[Hair]

I am happy to see you backtrack, but it does not make the earlier comments, which were ignorant, any less ignorant.

Ignorance is a human trait, not a personal attack.

 

[DGG]

Probably B group. Those "S" knives are knice knives put for that kind of money I can buy a custom knife that is better.

 

[allenC]

I am happy to see you backtrack, but it does not make the earlier comments, which were ignorant, any less ignorant.

Ignorance is a human trait, not a personal attack.

Hair,
I have tried to be diplomatic...cease with the "ignorant" remarks or you might find yourself walking the plank very soon.
It would be easy for me to take the low road like you are doing and simply call you "stupid" or "ignorant" or "narrow-minded" or "foolish" or "inbred" or "retarded" or "brain-dead" or any number of negative remarks.
You are not doing yourself any favors by making such pathetic, and unfounded, attacks upon my character.
If you cannot debate a subject without resorting to petty and childish name calling, then you have no argument at all and your opinions are based upon nothing but hot air.

I have not backtracked on anything that I have said previously.
Everything I said is 100% correct.

I disregard the Group C category because I think the price-to-performance ratio is dismal.
I buy knives to cut things....so why pay more money for no appreciable gain in performance?

The gap between custom (and semi-custom) knives and higher-end standard production knives has steadily narrowed over the years.
So much so, that there is really no benefit to paying over $200.00 dollars for a knife, from a performance point of view.

Sometimes you get what you pay for....and other times you just pay more for no good reason.
Are Tommy jeans better than Levi jeans?
I don't think so, but Tommy jeans easily cost twice the price of Levi jeans.
Some folks are just happy paying more for no performance gain.
Maybe it's for status or maybe they equate "more expensive" with "better" regardless of the facts.

Nothing you have said has disproven my remarks.
And my earlier remarks did not come from ignorance...I know what I'm talking about.
You seem to equate "more expensive" with "better"....a marketer's dream come true.

 

[Hair]

Once more, ignorance is a human trait and not a personal attack. I will repeat this again if you need me to.

You were never diplomatic, you were close-minded and insulting to people with a different opinion from your very first post. That is what my issue was from the start.

Sometimes you get what you pay for....and other times you just pay more for no good reason.
Are Tommy jeans better than Levi jeans?
I don't think so, but Tommy jeans easily cost twice the price of Levi jeans.
Some folks are just happy paying more for no performance gain.
Maybe it's for status or maybe they equate "more expensive" with "better" regardless of the facts.

These are the comments I took issue with. Yes, these comments are ignorant.

You later said that you recognized the difference and improvements of certain Group C knives over Group B, but that these improvements are not worth the money to you. This is VERY different from your first post. Again, I am glad to see you backtrack. You are not as ignorant as your comments were. You just need to choose your words better.

If your first post had said that you do not feel most Group C knives offer enough over Group B knives to be worth the increase in price, that would be fine. But you didn't.

I do not equate more expensive with better. That is very ignorant of you to say. I have disliked many of the more expensive knives I have handled, and liked many of the less expensive ones. I have said, in this very thread, that whether a knife is better or worse than another is subjective, and that some may prefer a Native to a Sebenza. A higher price is not an advantage and doesn't make a knife better. But sometimes the knife I prefer is more expensive, and sometimes I feel the price is worth paying. Sometimes I prefer the cheaper knife. How can you claim that I equate more expensive with better, when I said this (refuting your ignorant claim against me) in this very thread? Not paying attention?

 

[STR]

You know what I really want? I want another Buck 501 from 1980 with the Micarta scale. I had one of those and it was a trusted friend for many years. Lost it rock climbing in Carbondale Il at Giant City State Park one weekend. I never got over that one. I know it wasn't an expensive knife or anything but I liked it. I probably will never own another knife that saw as much pocket time as that one did. I got another one right after that with the wood scale and it did fine and I did carry it but when my son rolled my 4Runner it and everything else in the center console with it went out the sun roof never to be seen again. No teling what became of either of those. I had my STR on the spine on both though. I always hoped someone had one and that I'd find it one day but thats just a fantasy.

Anyway, thats what I really want. Another 501 from that era.
STR