What to ask a knife maker?

[FortyTwoBlades]

Thanks for making an appearance, Mr. Fowler! It's an honor and a blessing! :thumbup:

Assuming that blade steels and handle materials were listed on the maker's website, I would ask:

1) If they could do a full flat grind with a good distal taper to the blade, yet good supporting material at the spine.

2) What handle/blade materials they prefer to work in--not just what they do work in, but the materials the maker is most comfortable and familiar with.

3) What the knife maker considered as abuse of a knife, and what repair/maintenance services they offered.

4) That, providing the desired design features were met for the tasks I'd be using the knife for, that the knife maker should make any small adjustments to the design (without going overboard) to lend the knife their own unique aesthetics. This way the maker is still given a bit of freedom to be creative, and I get a knife that's just got a little bit of that extra cool factor without sacrificing usability for my purposes.

5) Whether or not the maker is into wilderness activities, as it's helpful if the maker knows your needs from first-hand experience!

 

[wildmike]

My first question is whether they actualy camp and hunt or practice wilderness skills with their knives.

The next question for me is whether they forge the blades or use stock removal only.

Then its down to heat treatment method.

The last thing I talk about is the final design. On this I usualy take an existing example of the makers work and let em know what I want. On my last purchase it was a blade 1 inch shorter with a continuous sweep to the edge.

Last is handle material.

I always leave my requirements a bit less refined than a blueprint because after all I am looking for a unique interpretation of my design.

On this last one the maker hit it out of the park. Already have another one on order from him.

 

[el dub]

I would ask about the edge holding abilities, and the guarantee. Especially the guarantee of the edge holding.

 

[Ed Fowler]

Remember - the knife you seek is one that you may have to depend on absolutely!!
As an example - the big wreck and all you have is that knife to get you through what ever faces you. Many unknowns need to be considered the greater your knowledge, the greater the probability you will make the right choices.

Consider the maker - how does the makers life style fit the knife he makes or how does he make up for what his personal experience may lack.

The question does he live the life his knife is meant to serve is a good one. Many makers are trapped in civilization, but this deficit can be overcome if the maker actively seeks to understand the needs you feel must be met, if he does his homework he can provide a knife to meet your needs.

Design must be carefully developed, each aspect of that design dedicated to function and the maker should be able to defend his knife, his explanations based on an understanding of purpose. If any part of that design does not have a valid purpose it should not be present on a knife based on function.

For example:
The number one design feature I demand is safety, absolute safety for the man using the knife. I can not remember ever making a knife without a guard. Why? My father was an MD in a small mountain community in Colorado - Idaho Springs, 40 miles west of Golden. Accident victims were a large part of his practice, during hunting and tourist seasons. I listened carefully as he related the causes of injuries he had to sew up. The lack of an adequate guard was one that I heard a lot of stories about, both from him as well as my grandfather who both studied as well as lived with using knives. The whole emphasis as I understood it - when you are betting the ranch you want all the odds in your favor. While a guard may be inconvenient, so are cut tendons.

Your choice of a knife is yours and yours alone - this discussion is for my knowledge as well as yours, I do not seek to convince any about what I feel is important, but delineate issues and spark a little debate.

Your thoughts thus far have been very stimulating and I look forward to more.

Naturally I will continue my comments, but don't want to get too many aspects of design into the discussion at once.

 

[Rick Marchand]

Ed.... great discussion.

While I agree with guards on many designs... I don't believe they are necessary for bushknives. When I say "guard" I'm speaking of the classic protruding finger guard... some compensate with an oversized choil, but that is useless in the reverse grip. I DO like a knife with a prominent ricassso area that acts as a buffer from handle to cutting edge but people have been using guardless knives for centuries. Proper technique is everything. I believe that for bushknives, a guard is for training purposes and the quicker you learn not to rely on them the better. Every injury I've seen can be traced back to improper technique.

I would not even consider a woods knife that had a guard.

I am specifically talking about bushknives here, since this is the W&SS area... Fighters, among other designs would be useless without a good guard.

Concerning the original topic, I agree with what others have said.... when choosing a maker, take into consideration their background as it relates to the knife's intended purpose.

Thanks, Ed

Rick

 

[skilldust]

YEP-- what KOYOTE said
Jerry Bond [maker]
skilldust

 

[Ravaillac]

What the maker does (or where he lives) is not really relevant: you don't need to be able to skin a deer to know how to make a good heat treatment. It may help but it is not mandatory.

That said maker of course needs to have some connection to the outdoors, at least some advisers or a large customer basis capable to give him a lot of feedback.

I'd say the knife must come as a "system package", how it is meant to be used. Some makers may explain you that their knives is meant mostly at cutting branches to erect shelter. Some others could tell you the knife is meant to craft traps, harverst small material or whatever.

You want to know what the knife is good for, if it can batton, if it can pry, what are its approximate limits.

Features depend what the knife is for. A guard seems mandatory for stabbing (maybe if hunting). It does stand in the way for small tasks. It doesn't seem necessary for chopping (see Khukries or even some machetes).

 

[fujita yuji]

If I am to purchase a knife from a custom maker, I'll ask him about his heat-treatment.
Because this is the most essential part of producing knives and yet we cannot get visible
information about it in most of the cases.

 

[Dannyboy Leather]

Post expired.

 

[koyote]

A guard is part of a design- but for me insisting on a guard, especially single definition of type with the giner guard- subordinates all other aspects of design and safety.

We all notice a lot of Scandinavian knives without guards which are designed for hard cutting and push cutting- the 'guard' or safety features are all on the rear of the handle!

Most kitchen knives work better without guards- out of the 20 odd (remember I have a butcher for a housemate and I make knives- a LOT of kitchen gear on our multiple magnetic racks)- 20 odd knives I can see from my desk on the racks, one has something you would call a guard. A couple more have dropped edges, but some of THOSE are sharpened on the corner!

I also consider the pinky and ring finger grip to often be more important than a index finger ramp or disc type guard on a field knife. The more the knife will chop, the more important that is, I think.

All that being said, for going inside an animal, I'd prefer to have SOME for of solid grip retention, be it a finger guard, a small disk guard, or a choked contour and edge drop guard. Palm heel works for me a lot Even a tapered handle could do it.

 

[stingray4540]

Well, regardless of the views of the maker, I still will not buy his knife if he won't build one without a guard.

As far as safety is concerned, you could also blunt the tip and dull the end, because after all, that is the only way to insure everyone doesn't get hurt.
Thousands of people have been using guard-less knives for thousands of years. Sure there will be a few people inexperienced with how to use a knife that will cut themselves because they were using it improperly and the lack of a guard enabled them to hurt themselves, but there are also a few people that will hurt themselves because they were using a knife improperly and the fact that it has a sharp edge or pointy tip enabled that to happen.

Think of all the slipjoint knives that have been used for generations, as well as the scandinavian/Puuko/Sammi knives that have been used for thousands of years. When using a knife properly, the lack of a guard is not a safety issue.

I personally only use slipjoint pocket knives and Scandinavian(guardless) style knives, and have yet to cut myself do to the lack of a guard. And I might add that I am an avid fisherman, like to play with bushcraft stuff and carving, I also do quite a bit of camping, hiking, backpacking, and mountain biking and have done some hunting in the past. In even the slimiest, wettest conditions, I have not found the lack of a guard a problem, whether it be cleaning fish, rabbits or deer, or carving a figure 4 trap.


Of course, having said all that, it is still a personal choice.
But, there is no amount of convincing that can be done buy a maker to get me to buy a knife with a guard. So, as good as his knives may be, I wouldn't use a knife with a guard, so I wouldn't spend my money on a beautiful knife that won't get used.

Good thread though.

 

[Ed Fowler]

There are may styles of knives designed and used for specific functions. When used for their function, designed and developed in harmony between maker and client all is well.

For the time being I suggest we try to limit our discussion to the one knife you may have to depend upon absolutely. As Koyote mentioned, you are tired, it is dark, and to add to that you may be hurt or your hands nearly frozen. You or someone else is in a wreck, a bad one demanding immediate action, adrenaline is flowing and you have to depend on one knife, the one on your belt.

What questions would you want to ask the maker in order to predict the integrity of his knives in relation to this event?

I do appreciate the comments all have made!

 

[DavidZ]

Ed -
Thank you for entering our forum. We appreciate your wisdom. The questions that I ask a custom knife maker have changed greatly over the years, and after many disappointments in this regard, the question that I will be asking now, is if the knife were to fail, how long will it take to get a replacement. I am struggling with that issue right now. I returned the blade, and the maker agreed that it was an error on his part, with an improper grind, and now over 10 months later, all I get are excuses and delays. Thankfully, the failure did not occur during, or cause any life threatening issues. And to answer the question in your mind right now, I want to get my replacement, so I can sell it to recoup my hard earned money. I will not trust his work again, and using it will be a constant reminder of the failure, and distasteful dealings.

 

[Dannyboy Leather]

Post expired.

 

[Ed Fowler]

Yes : you have hit the jackpot!!!
How does he test his knives?
How often does he test his knives to destruction?
You never know the limits of a blade until you have tested it to destruction.
Testing is not your responsibility, but the responsibility of the maker to insure your survival if a true life threatening incident comes your way by providence.

Should you trust him? That is your decision.

My present apprentice Chris Amos is obsessed with testing blades to destruction.
I have witnessed his tests where "combat survival" folding knives with thumb studs broke at less torque that would register on my torque wrench.

What can you expect from the knife you are looking at:
I would ask about - Lateral strength - expressed in foot pounds of torque.
How far can you push it - how many 90 degree flexes will it stand?
Sharpening: how?
Edge holding? and How to you test this?

Many blade failures that are catastrophic involve "abuse" of knives by having to pry with them. In the situation that is subject of this form, you cannot abuse a knife when your life depends on it. Either works or you die - or do without a knife.

I often wonder how many have perished when a knife they depended on failed - there are very few records.

I wrote an article "chopper down" for Handgunner Magazine - it was not well received by many.

The question " what does he consider abuse" was a great one.

Guarantee: another great question, always ask.

 

[koyote]

For the time being I suggest we try to limit our discussion to the one knife you may have to depend upon absolutely. As Koyote mentioned, you are tired, it is dark, and to add to that you may be hurt or your hands nearly frozen. You or someone else is in a wreck, a bad one demanding immediate action, adrenaline is flowing and you have to depend on one knife, the one on your belt.

And now it is time for me to cheat. I'm totally comfortable recommending a leuku pattern bushcrafter for that situation- but that is almost certianly going to include an intergral semi-guard formed out of the handle or a dropped edge and small ricasso, which serves the same purpose without being intrusive to bushcrafting use.

Of course, if the customer is post novice level himself, I'll go with a totally gaurd feature free knife and have no qualms. (Though it is almost certainly going to have a palmable handle.)

I really appreciate it when a customer who I haven't dealt with before through orders (or on the forums or socially) asks me about that- I do like to know that there's thought about the handle side of the blade from people.

 

[zhangmaster12]

I really think the knifemakers lifestyle is important. In order to make a skinning knife, one must need to know what type of knife is needed for skinning, and the best way to know that is experience (thats why I dont make knives ... yet). Experience, experience, experience, there is no better way to learn than experience. People can theorize about how things are done, but the doers are always better at doing that theorists. A knifemakers experience is especially important to me because Im an in no way and expert in WS&S.

Secondly, I believe that real world testing is very, very important. For example, I love Noss's destruction tests, although many poeple dont. They are real world tests that show how much a knife can handle, and how much use it can take. This helps me judge for myself. Sure numbers are great, but sometimes, numbers dont show the complete truth.

They only numbers i believe are really worth it are how many strikes it took to break it and how hard. Or how many pounds before it snapped.

For example, to test edge holding, use a knife in the field (or in the kitchen, food is important!) for a certain amount of time. See how long it would keep cutting well, then how easy it is to resharpen.

Lastly, any knife I buy must be able to withstand batoning through at least 3 inch diameter wood (unless the blade is smaller than three inches obviously). This is a personal caveat.

 

[Dannyboy Leather]

Post expired.

 

[SouthernCross]

G'day Ed

Thanks for continuing to address points raised :thumbup:

If I may, I'd like to follow through on a few of the points you have already raised.

Consider the maker - how does the makers life style fit the knife he makes or how does he make up for what his personal experience may lack.

The question does he live the life his knife is meant to serve is a good one. Many makers are trapped in civilization, but this deficit can be overcome if the maker actively seeks to understand the needs you feel must be met, if he does his homework he can provide a knife to meet your needs.

This is true. If the maker seeks to learn, then lack of first hand experience can be overcome.

If this is the case and the design has been influenced by others, I would like to know the background & experiences of those the maker has been influenced by.

I would also like to know whether those experiences are relevant to me here in Australia and I guess ultimately to see if they are "the real deal".

For example:
The number one design feature I demand is safety, absolute safety for the man using the knife. I can not remember ever making a knife without a guard. Why? My father was an MD in a small mountain community in Colorado - Idaho Springs, 40 miles west of Golden. Accident victims were a large part of his practice, during hunting and tourist seasons. I listened carefully as he related the causes of injuries he had to sew up. The lack of an adequate guard was one that I heard a lot of stories about, both from him as well as my grandfather who both studied as well as lived with using knives. The whole emphasis as I understood it - when you are betting the ranch you want all the odds in your favor. While a guard may be inconvenient, so are cut tendons.

This interests me. I've got to ask, how did so many people manage to cut the hand that is holding the knife?

Thanks in advance for your response :thumbup:




Kind regards
Mick

 

[Ed Fowler]

I think it is called the lack of knowledge syndrome.
I cut my off hand memorably on three separate occasions:

The first was when my grandmother taught me how to use a knife and let me help peel potatoes. I went against her teaching and cut my left hand.

The second was a repeat performance of the first. (I learn slow)

Third was when my friend who owned a kill floor bid on a contract to supply 3 tons of stew meat cut in 1" pieces, he got the contract and we had to go to work. I had never used a trailing point knife (detest them) but that was what he had for me to use. One of his hired hands quit and another got sick. We worked around the clock boning and slicing meat. I kept stabbing my left hand, finally the inspector made me quit because I was "getting too much blood in the meat". (Years ago!)

Due to my bias I was not used to using a trailing point knife, fatigue made the situation worse.

I took one of his larger knives with me, went to my shop, used super glue on my hand and my grinder on his knife. A rubber glove and freshly developed drop point put me together again. We filled the contract with 2 hours to spare!!!