What to ask a knife maker?

[haggismonger]

One of the great things about these forums Troy (sorry I called you by your last name previously) is that it provides a somewhat honest place for both makers and purchasers to hash out their expectations and while talking about the wonderful topic of survival and wilderness.

My main point in my last post was simply that I really need to generate a lot of trust in a maker before I buy from them and in a sense I was trying to answer the OP in that statement. One of the ways I garner trust in a maker is by meeting them in person which is rare given geographic dispersion or knowing them as part of this community at large. In particularly, the guys who frequent W&SS are ones that I tend to trust the most. Mainly because through our extensive conversation that is this sub-forum, we have come to an understanding about issues of knife use.

I think you'll find that here in W&SS there is a pretty standard set of expectations about what a bushcraft knife or survival knife should be capable of doing and that many members here will immediately engage in testing activities on receiving a new knife. As group, we tend to all strongly encourage testing of any new knives we get before bringing them out into the field where our lives do depend on our tools. There was a fine example of a production knife from a reputable company chipping out on one of our users in the field which forced him to use a less ideal backup tool for the remainder of his trip. The chipping out of the blade was an obvious flaw of the knife and its heat treat and he would have been much better off knowing this before going camping than during. In this particular subforum, I think it is fair to say that we really only talk about user knives. People rarely flash up collector items and when they are displayed the comments about usability inevitably come to light.

I should also say that there is some equity in terms of makers and users here on these forums. When a knife fails to perform up to a users standards, they will post their issues and give the details of the situation. It doesn't always shake out that the community feels sympathy for the user when it turns out they did in fact have unrealistic expectations or did something as you put it that was unreasonable. Likewise, this subforum usually doesn't suffer makers who won't back up their products or who cry abuse at the drop of the hat.

I think we are all pretty reasonable here. Some of us spend a lot of time and contribute extensively to W&SS. We've seen a lot of different knives, both production and custom. We tested a lot of different knives in what we consider normal activities like: batoning with grain and cross grain wood, prying that wood open during the batoning, batoning the tip into softwood, prying out fatwood chunks, drilling out holes in wood with the tip in addition to various cutting, slicing and wood chopping.

It doesn't happen continuously, but we do get the odd member wondering into our little campfire here and telling us what we shouldn't be doing with our knives. Sometimes they get a polite rebuttle and some times we just try to set them straight.

I certainly didn't imply any hostility regarding your integrity as a knife maker but I was trying to make myself clear about my expectations of a knife sold bushcraft or survival knife. In fact I welcome your dialogue and perspective. Perhaps you could provide a little bit more clarity regarding what you think is abusive without getting into extremes like mentioning hockey mask wearing knife destoyers.

For example, I'll throw out a personal peeve of what I consider abuse, although other users here do in fact do this and I know a few SARs have posted on the need to do this with their knives in emergencies - digging in rocky soil. I've seen a pile of knives where the edge drastically chips out by digging and hitting rocks in the soil. From my perspective that activity isn't something I'd expect a knife to survive very well and if I destroyed a knife or its edge doing it, I'd chalk that one up to ill advised methodology.

Dang it, Hockey mask wearing knife destroyers is where I was going next, so I've got nothin'!!

I'm going to raise another hank of hackles for a second, because I think that the whole "name a knife is marketed as..." claim is weak tea. Supposing I made a knife called the dragon slayer? Am I subject to false advertising? In this litigious day and litigious age, I might be. There are some out there screaming at their screen right now, saying that I'm being banal in my side of the discussion, but from my perspective, I'm well within the boundaries of spirited debate. I don't care if a maker has made a knife that he or she claims is the one and only blade suitable to properly dispatch invading hordes of aliens, If it fits MY needs, I'm good with that. I don't need to define parameters of use for the customer, that's for them to decide, I only know what I would do with it. In a wild situation, Your knife is your life, I get that, but in a survival situation, aren't we also encouraged to be as conservative as we can in our wear and tear of equipment? A responsible approach to a survival situation would dictate that the least invasive and least destructive application of equipment to address a need would be of greatest worth and value, and increase our survivability. Labeling a situation a survival situation doesn't have to automatically imply that you have to wreck everything you have with you to make it out. I can't think of a single task undertaken to improve my survivability in the wild that I cannot expect my knife to handle, if a knife is called for. Stop and think for a minute, call to the forefront all of your skillsets and I don't think you'll find a task that you have to do that calls for the use of a knife in a way that would snap it off at the hilt, or bend it with your hands, or call for it to be used even as a digging tool. A knife is a tool to be used as a way to solve problems, and not always the solution itself. Cut a sapling and make a digging stick. Go ahead and use it to baton, but if you're trying to split kindling, use wedges to ease the task, and reduce the chance that you'll put undue stress on any blade. You can cut a wedge, stick it in the partial split, and as you give a little twist on your knife, you can baton that wedge down and open up the wood. Work smarter, not harder. There are a lot of out-of-the-box solutions that will increase your survivability, and allow you to preserve your assets to the greatest extent.

Troy

 

[kgd]

Good post Troy. It looks like we are getting somewhere. I doubt makers would be legally responsible for much in what a user does with their blades. It still might not be a good idea to call one your blades the 'lady killer'. However, their reputation can take a beating when put in the wrong light and nobody wants that to happen especially when undeserved. Thats why I think it is a such a good idea to be open about conversing what you think knives are made for and place those expectations in the public like here on the forums.

There are different takes on situations but I think we are seeing some common ground. I've had a few chunks of wood that surpassed my will to go on further. I simply gave up on trying to cure them with my blade, stopped my initial approach and moved onto an alternative. By the same token, I'm certainly not one to avoid using my knife for fear of destroying it though.

I agree with the digging stick comment. Its usually the first thing I suggest in the same situation. I remember a SAR posting up that he had to use his knives for digging a few times under emergencies where he needed to get at burning roots and there simply wasn't the time for him to make a stick for the purpose. For his needs, he wanted a blade that can act as a shovel. Turns out he had one that served his purposes. Not all blades need to live up that individuals standards. But at the same time, that person should be able to go to a maker, tell him what he wants his knife to do and come to some understanding with the maker about a design that can work. Communication has to work two ways - both from the user and the maker...

 

[Rick Marchand]

On the subject of knife abuse vs premature failure...

Depending on the size and geometry I would expect a knife to hold up to flexing and batoning and resist chipping. I test every knife I make. (not to failure, mind you... I do have to sell them) I do make "test" knives or use "ugly" knives for destruction testing. I know what will make my knives break. If you can manage to break one of my knives, I can most likely tell you what you were doing when it broke. With the right methods and consistant practices, known steel is predictable.

On the subject of what is expected from our gear...

This is a touchy subject. In W&SS we have folks that'll drop $2000 on a gun and yet refuse to pay more than $20 on a knife. We also have folks that'll baton a $500 knife crossgrain through seasoned oak. I do bite my tongue when i see what folks expect from a knife. I also have noticed that people automatically imagine survival situations as EXTREME scenarios where "your knife is your life". If we should expect that much from a knife.... then why wear jeans when we can wear Kevlar? Why wear hikers when we could wear steel toe work boots? .... Hardhats?.... safety glasses? Why don't we all drive 4x4's or wear PLB's?

... that said.... dudebud, who had to chop his own arm off and climb out of a canyon sure could have used a bombproof WSK. (with a sawback... yikes)

Rick

 

[Ed Fowler]

Grossman: The reason I test knives with a vice is that it is a repeatable experiment, you can put a torque wrench on it and know exactly the limits of the lateral strength of the test blade.

I have tested 100's of blades in this manner and learned from every one of them.

In my experience lateral strength or the lack of it is one of the most serious sources of failure. Test and you know! If you want to sell a knife and your client asks, just tell him - it is not a pry bar, it will break at 10 ft lbs. and will constitute abuse. Then he knows and you know. An honest transaction understood by all.

 

[kgd]

ha ha ha - Touche Rick - I do wear steel toe boats while hiking

 

[Rick Marchand]

ha ha ha - Touche Rick - I do wear steel toe boats while hiking

Doh!:foot:



You are a well prepared man..... :thumbup:




Rick

 

[panch0]

Great thread! It is very interesting to a new maker like me. Thanks to all for the golden tidbits of knowledge.

-frank

 

[Gossman Knives]

Gossman: The reason I test knives with a vice is that it is a repeatable experiment, you can put a torque wrench on it and know exactly the limits of the lateral strength of the test blade.

I have tested 100's of blades in this manner and learned from every one of them.

In my experience lateral strength or the lack of it is one of the most serious sources of failure. Test and you know! If you want to sell a knife and your client asks, just tell him - it is not a pry bar, it will break at 10 ft lbs. and will constitute abuse. Then he knows and you know. An honest transaction understood by all.

Thanks Ed. Maybe I should have been more clear. I understand what you are saying and yes I have put blades in a vise to test lateral strength as well as wedged them in wood to test lateral strength. Different steel types can handle different amounts of torque. Properly HTed and tempered D2 will not take the same amount of torque that say 5160 or 1095 can handle. D2 is tool steel, 5160 and 1095 are spring steels. Some people think all steels should take the same amount of torque.
I have done destruction testing to my own blades many, many times. I know the limits of my knives and the steel I work with. I let customers know this and I'm very honest about the results. Using it as a part of advertising is what I don't get.

People need to understand that knives are first and formost cutting tools. Not prybars or concrete smashers. My point is most wilderness survival situations are very unlikely going to make you use you knife to the point of breakage. Anybody can break any blade if they try hard enough. Alot of blades you see break in these forums are due to poor HT or defects in the steel which unfortunately happen to the end user.
Scott

 

[m]

I agree with you Mr. Fowler, it's the unethical in every group that give "Big Brother" the lame excuse it needs to invade more and more into our lives. And this business has more than its share of unethical sellers, and fanboy buyers that help them make excuses instead of makeing things right. I think a lot of it comes from the fact that a lot of the people with enough money to buy these expensive wallhangers never really NEED a good knife, they just like the image, and they will defend that image as hard as they can.
There are not many makers that can make a knife that can take hard twisting and bending and impact forces and still take and hold a good edge. Those that can make a knife like that took the time to experiment with and test their steels and heat treats and earned the right to call their knives "tough" or "hard use" or whatever. The many other makers have not earned that right. And obviously not every knife has to be or should be "hard use", but if someone makes claims or suggests a knife is fit for a certain use, it should be able to do it without any lame excuses or redefinitions or anything.

 

[Rick Marchand]

I think this thread is great and although we get hung up on "guards", "abuse" and what constitues a "survival" situation, a lot of good info for both end users and makers has come of it.:thumbup:

What it boils down to... and what I believe Ed has been trying to get across is that a maker who has put the time into understanding the steel and heat treat, should be able to bring out the best in a knife, know its limitations and live up to his marketing schtick, PERIOD! The end user shouldn't have to hope that his 5160 blade can survive flexing or that his D2 skinner will hold its edge while processing a moose.

We have many steels to choose from, nowadays.... each with their own advantages and disadvantages. A lot of consumers will purchase knives based on material type alone! If I buy a 9" 5160 chopper I don't want to see it at 63Rc... I want that baby to flex and not chip out or crack under stress.... I understand and accept the fact that it won't hold an edge as long as A2 or be as corrosion resistant as S30V. Consumers have a certain responsibility to familiarize themselves with steel, too. I would be a bit miffed if a scuba diver was upset that his 1095 knife rusted off the coast of Florida.... unless, of course I was marketing it as a "dive knife"... then who's the dummy?

Rick

 

[m]

Well said Magnussen

 

[Ed Fowler]

I agree! Well said, this is the kind of debate was hoping to read.

While we may hope for level headed behavior in a wreck. A crisis can summon super human strength. I remember when a friend's father, while mechanicing, was caught under his 56 Ford Country Squire station wagon, when it slipped off of a jack, he could not breathe. His wife who was not a large woman lifted the front end of that car off of him while his two young sons pulled him out from under the car by his feet. He suffered broken ribs on both sides and shoulder injuries, but lived.

She said the car was not that heavy - but could not lift it afterwards.

We are still open to further discussion.

 

[Rick Marchand]

Just cuz Ed brought it up..... he he.... I blame him for this off topic post.

Re: The superhuman wife....

We have the same muscle fiber as any other animal.... so why does it take these "adrenalin rich experiences" to posess the power of a silverback gorilla?

The brain limits the amount of muscle fibres it activates during any given task. Humans, so I've heard, only (consciously) use 1/3 of their potential even during strenuous physical exersion. Because of our big brains, we don't need all that muscle to get the job done. Evolution has put this turbo drive into remission. Animals aren't inhibited by superior inteligence... lol... so they have to rely on their physical attributes. (sight, smell, hearing, strength, etc..)

When we experience an adrenalin dump, we tap into that primitive wiring and activate more muscle fiber. The drawback is that it really puts a strain on the tendons and bones... often resulting in injury.

Saw that on the boob-tube a few months ago.



Carry on....


Rick

 

[hollowdweller]

I have only ever had one knife blade snap on me ever.

That was a buck 110 that I had owned and used extensively for over 18 years at that time.

I'm mainly concerned with a knife that has high cutting efficiency and that I can use over a long period of time with comfort.

 

[kgd]

I remember a while back a thread talking about wood scales shifting and lifting from the tang. Apparently with some woods this is more common than others. When getting natural scales I'd like to know from the maker what their expectations are for the materials and whether they expect the knife to stay as was purchased.

 

[kgd]

KGD - forgive a short antidote: Gathering cows, sudden storm one hand was way out, very heavy snow, high wind and getting dark, visibility zero.
He rode down into a draw, hobbled three legs on his horse, found a slight source of cover in the sand stone bank, dug out debris and mud with his knife to give himself a little cover, scrounged sage brush and piled it in front of his shelter, was able to get a little to burn, but it burns quick and not much heat.

He held out through the night then headed the cows he was moving toward the roundup pasture. No one knew where he was or could offer any help until morning. He needed no help, his knife did suffer some, but held up.

It was what he had and it was enough knife.

Did he abuse it?

Sorry Ed - I missed your story on this one but it is great little story and the kind of thing we like to role play or envision. Users sometimes concoct crazy stories, but the one you told is not too hard to come by. From its ending the protagonist used what he had on hand and it served its purpose. He walked away unscathed and his edge, perhaps a little worse for wear, could probably be restored with a lot of love bestowed on it using a coarse stone.

In fact, I'd say the knife behaved admirably and got him through the situation. Its how I'd hope things would turn out with any of my knives that were used in such circumstances. Fact is, when the chips are down, you use what you have on hand. I don't even need the chips to be down before I'm going to start using my knife.

If one of my blades break during their use you can bet that the maker will hear about it and they will get an honest report of what happened. I don't think I'd demand a replacement knife or anything like that, but I would really want to hear what the maker has to say about what happened and whether or not they felt it was just a quirk of circumstances or something that could have been prevented either in the case of my use of the knife or in the case of how the blade was designed. From the great conversations I've had from most makers, it seems pretty clear to me that they want to be part of that conversation and come up with a truthful picture of what happened on failure.

At least one production company, one of the few that I buy from anymore, regularly reports on knife failures and breakages and warrenty work they honour on their products. The company is RatCutlery and the owners seem extremely honest in reporting the circumstances. They've even reported knife breakages where the user hasn't so it would seem that they have no problem airing their dirty laundry. I really respect that type of open communication.

 

[nydude]

Most important to me is flexibility in blade length.

I see many "bushcraft" knives out there that I really like with 4" and slightly above lengths.

But...By law any knife I wish to carry must have a sub 4" sharpened edge unless I am hunting or fishing. Camping,hiking, or general woods bumming won't cut it.

If a maker doesn't do "orders" or imply in their website that a customer has some flexibility with their designs I pass them by.(I have a custom 3 7/8" bushcraft type knife that a maker here was willing to make up for me. His standard model is 4")

Not everyone is allowed to carry a 4"-5" fixed blade. Even in the woods.

Todd, area's are you refering to? I spend lots of time in NYC and have spent some time looking into restrictions here. Where else is so resrictive?

 

[Todd A]

Todd, area's are you refering to? I spend lots of time in NYC and have spent some time looking into restrictions here. Where else is so resrictive?

Pardon my thread driftpost.

Since I was asked ,the entire State of Connecticut.


Sec. 53-206. Carrying of dangerous weapons prohibited. (a) Any person who carries upon his or her person any BB. gun, blackjack, metal or brass knuckles, or any dirk knife, or any switch knife, or any knife having an automatic spring release device by which a blade is released from the handle, having a blade of over one and one-half inches in length, or stiletto, or any knife the edged portion of the blade of which is four inches or over in length, any police baton or nightstick, or any martial arts weapon or electronic defense weapon, as defined in section 53a-3, or any other dangerous or deadly weapon or instrument, shall be fined not more than five hundred dollars or imprisoned not more than three years or both. Whenever any person is found guilty of a violation of this section, any weapon or other instrument within the provisions of this section, found upon the body of such person, shall be forfeited to the municipality wherein such person was apprehended, notwithstanding any failure of the judgment of conviction to expressly impose such forfeiture.


Unless...

(3) the carrying of a knife, the edged portion of the blade of which is four inches or over in length, by

(F) any person holding a valid hunting, fishing or trapping license issued pursuant to chapter 490 or any salt water fisherman carrying such knife for lawful hunting, fishing or trapping activities,

Having such a knife in your vehicle is a separate charge (both are felonies).

Risk of arrest is low out in the sticks, but it is something to be aware of. I follow the sub four inch law, though I have only had the length of a blade checked once (Schrade Sharpfinger) by a Trooper on a traffic stop.

So be carefull on your trips north to our fine State.

 

[nydude]

Todd, thanks for the info.

 

[zhangmaster12]

I think this thread is great and although we get hung up on "guards", "abuse" and what constitues a "survival" situation, a lot of good info for both end users and makers has come of it.:thumbup:

What it boils down to... and what I believe Ed has been trying to get across is that a maker who has put the time into understanding the steel and heat treat, should be able to bring out the best in a knife, know its limitations and live up to his marketing schtick, PERIOD! The end user shouldn't have to hope that his 5160 blade can survive flexing or that his D2 skinner will hold its edge while processing a moose.

We have many steels to choose from, nowadays.... each with their own advantages and disadvantages. A lot of consumers will purchase knives based on material type alone! If I buy a 9" 5160 chopper I don't want to see it at 63Rc... I want that baby to flex and not chip out or crack under stress.... I understand and accept the fact that it won't hold an edge as long as A2 or be as corrosion resistant as S30V. Consumers have a certain responsibility to familiarize themselves with steel, too. I would be a bit miffed if a scuba diver was upset that his 1095 knife rusted off the coast of Florida.... unless, of course I was marketing it as a "dive knife"... then who's the dummy?

Rick

Exactly!'
If somebody is chopping seasoned hardwood with a d2 blade and is surprised with chips in the blade, then its his fault, not the maker's. However if this happened with say my FFBM, you bet I would be pissed.

What is abuse for a knife must be taken into context. If someone says they made a 1095 chopper, then I expect it to chop, baton, and do other hard work. If someone made a D2 trapper, I would be retarded to expect it to baton and chop without any troubles].



For me personally, any knife I buy, regardless of its steel, I need to be confident that it can do what it was made to do with no problems AT ALL! And with some knives, mainly production knives like Busse or Fehrman, I need to be sure that are un-f-in breakable (which they are )!

edit:

btw, its Anecdote, not antidote