What to ask a knife maker?

One aspect to consider - a fully hardened blade usually fails catastrophically, all at once in one snap and you are out of a knife.

Differentially hardened or tempered blades tend to crack or tear in the hardened area, when the fracture reaches the softer spine the crack should turn parallel to the spine, if the heat treat was correct. You can straighten these blades and still use them.

Ask to look at blades after the destructive testing and you can learn a lot!
 
Hmm questions.

What choices of steel do I have?

What thickness of steel do I have a choice of?

Can you make a knife based on my design or requirements?

Do you do convex or scandi grinds?

Can you make the edge of the blade be as close to the handle as possible for maximum cutting leverage(ie very small ricasso)??

Does the price include a sheath?

Can you send me the knife with the scales attached, and profiled to the tang, but not sanded down so I can sand the handle to fit my hand perfectly?

Will you send me pictures of the knife in progress?

If it doesn't live up to my specs can I return it??

I think those would be my main questions.
 
Those are some pretty darned good questions. :D

A lot of it still comes down to what I said earlier: The heck with the questions, does your knifemaker listen? Does he answer the phone? Does he return e-mails? Is he willing to incorporate your experience, your ideas, and your suggestions into the finally product?

Ed, I love you man, and I know you've had more experience than me with this stuff, but I'm not all that far away from you in Colorado, and I've been around almost as long as you have. I might have picked up a thing or two in that time too. A knifemaker who doesn't or can't respect that just won't get my business. Don't tell me anything - listen to me and work with me and together we can come up with something pretty sweet - guaranteed.
 
As an amature, there are two questions I find get in the way of my buying a knife.
1. What is the price? The price tells me alot. If the answer is $50, I move on. If it is (as one actually was) $10,000 (I had guessed $500), I also walk on. This question actually is not usually a suprise on the high side.
2. The question that actually stops me more than I like, is availablilty of the knife. I am 62. I do not have 5 years to wait.There are several knives I would like to have, but are just not available in a reasonable time period or thru a reasonable effort. I have waited 1 year for several knives. 1 year is ok.
 
My suggestion: Never give a maker a down payment until the knife is ready to ship unless you are ordering something very special that he has to pay for up front, even then, be careful.
If you are on a list, don't be bashful about calling once in a while to remind him, sometimes names get lost.
 
ED, it was nice to chat with you tonight, I enjoyed it immensely, and filed away a few tidbits of knowledge. Pertaining to the subject at hand, The questions I end up asking those that want a knife are many that have already been listed, "what do you plan on doing with the knife..." That sort of thing. I think one thing that needs to be considered in this discussion is where do you draw the line in expectations of knife performance? Would you turn away a knife that won't chop through the space shuttle? How about a knife that can't handle continuous double-duty as a screwdriver? "The right tool for the job" is a very subjective concept, whose boundaries aren't the same from user to user. I'm comfortable using a puukko style guardless knife with a three inch blade for a LOT of general tasks, and it has served me well in the wild, completing every camp chore that I expect it to. If someone came to me wanting a knife that never needed sharpening and could beat john henry through the mountain, I'd laugh, because the demands placed on the blade were beyond practicality. I understand the need to satisfy the customers' demands, but not at the expense of reality. One of the previous posters in this thread ( I apologize, I cannot remember your name at the moment) made mention of the fact that despite not having a guard on a constantly carried slipjoint pocket knife, he's never experienced cut fingers, and others have mentioned the same general concensus, the proviso being "While being used correctly" I understand trying to be as thorough as possible to prove your craft, to prove that it's up to the task through destruction testing, but everything fails. EVERYTHING fails. Doesn't necessarily indicate poor workmanship, poor materials selection, but may very well show the marks of misuse.

Ashcraft
 
I am not Ed but I would like to say something to the above post by Ashcraft. I agree with you that everything has a failure point. The question is do you know when and how it will fail. If a person makes a knife to be used as a "survival" or "hard use" or "combat" knife they should know when and how it will fail and be able to explain that to the purchaser so the purchaser can decide if it is tough enough for his uses. I personaly can't see why some people spend a LOT of money on knives that are less tough than a $12 Mora, but to each his own. But if you call your knife by any of the names that suggest it is suitable for hard use I think you owe it to the people who actually depend on their knives to make a knife that would be very hard to break with bare hands. If a maker does not have the knowledge on how to do that they should have the scruples to not depict their knives as "tough" or in any way that might put a substandard knife in a soldiers hand or in someones hand that might have to depend on it.
 
M: Your words are exactly the reason for this thread!!
Parasites depict their knives as survival, tactical and rescue knives, they sell these knives based on their image and have done no testing. Clients buy them thinking they have what is needed and as Danny boy stated they snap -- the client is without a knife. I personally consider it a confidence game of the lowest level.

If we as knife makers do not clean our act up - legislation could come to replace our lack of ethics. Possibly a civil suit when a knife sold with the image of use in critical situations fails and life is lost may make the difference.

The knife buying public also can play a roll and help all to understand the potential serious consequences of a lack of 'truth in advertising'. If we ask the simple question - "How do you test your knives?" and follow his explanation with more questions of each maker we meet, it could very well make a difference - I hope!
 
Ed,

I remember you telling me when I bought my first Pronghorn that if I could break it with my bare hands, you'd replace it. I also recall that you'd never had to replace one!

I agree it's important to know that a survival tool has been tested thoroughly enough to confirm that it won't fail when it's most needed.

DancesWithKnives
 
I would like to talk with you further about this, because I'm not sure I'm fully understanding your point. As I understand your post, you are of the opinion that it's your responsibility as a maker to follow up on a buyer's needs and make sure they know what they are doing with it? I'm nobody's nanny, and if someone buys one of my knives and uses it in a manner inconsistent with good judgment, that's not my problem in the least. I make knives that I wouldn't hesitate to keep and use myself, and in fact many of my knives are very dear to me, and I wouldn't even think about selling them. I don't feel that is unethical in the least to absolve myself of liability or culpability in a situation where a knife was used in a manner that could have been better performed by the right tool for the job. If someone is in the market for a knife, and wants one that was handmade, it's on THEM to be a responsible user, not me. I don't understand how making a knife that resists being bent or broken in your hands is the measure of a good knife. I daresay that's not how YOU use a knife, and I would expect that any knife customer would avoid that sort of "use", but I'm not about to lose sleep over it if they want to try. I'm not trying to speak from a position defending poor business practices, or shoddy workmanship to cut corners, in fact, I'll gladly explain every procedure and every step I take in making the knives that I do, and stand behind them gladly and without hesitation. I do in fact know the failure point of my knives, and that comes right about the time you do something the knife was not made to do. A knife is a hand held cutting tool. If you want to chop down the largest redwood in the forest, I suggest you get an axe, or at the very least- a herring. If you want to dig a hole, be my guest, but realize that a shovel might work better, and if you use your knife, don't be aghast if it gets dull, and the edge doesn't pop hairs after hitting a rock or something. If you decide that you want to use a knife as a boat anchor in the dead sea, you have none to blame but yourself if you are disappointed in the amount of rust on it after a month. I'm sorry to demonstrate my point in ridiculous extremes, but I think a little common sense goes a long way in determining what a knife can and should be able to do. I'm a little agitated right now, I don't want to step on toes, I don't want to be perceived as 'attacking' someone's philosophy of the Holy Grail of knife design and expectation, and although I know my comments will generate some feedback, I'm also not suggesting I'm unwilling to learn something new.

Ashcraft
 
Well put, Ashcraft.... gives us something else to think about, for sure.

I'm at a loss..... both sides of the fence are making good points.




Rick
 
Big question is, what duties do you expect the knife to do in a survival situation? Most wilderness survival situations occur when someone is stranded, lost or injured. Staying put and taking care of the situation at hand is a priority. Two main concerns depending on the weather is shelter and fire.

A knife is a cutting tool, period. The problem we face in the knife industry is advertising hype. Don't market your product to do things a knife is not made for and you will have no issues.
I have to agree with Ashcraft. One thing I could never understand is the purpose behind bending a knife in a vise.:confused:
Scott
 
haggismonger said:
I would like to talk with you further about this, because I'm not sure I'm fully understanding your point. As I understand your post, you are of the opinion that it's your responsibility as a maker to follow up on a buyer's needs and make sure they know what they are doing with it? I'm nobody's nanny, and if someone buys one of my knives and uses it in a manner inconsistent with good judgment, that's not my problem in the least. I make knives that I wouldn't hesitate to keep and use myself, and in fact many of my knives are very dear to me, and I wouldn't even think about selling them. I don't feel that is unethical in the least to absolve myself of liability or culpability in a situation where a knife was used in a manner that could have been better performed by the right tool for the job. If someone is in the market for a knife, and wants one that was handmade, it's on THEM to be a responsible user, not me. I don't understand how making a knife that resists being bent or broken in your hands is the measure of a good knife. I daresay that's not how YOU use a knife, and I would expect that any knife customer would avoid that sort of "use", but I'm not about to lose sleep over it if they want to try. I'm not trying to speak from a position defending poor business practices, or shoddy workmanship to cut corners, in fact, I'll gladly explain every procedure and every step I take in making the knives that I do, and stand behind them gladly and without hesitation. I do in fact know the failure point of my knives, and that comes right about the time you do something the knife was not made to do. A knife is a hand held cutting tool. If you want to chop down the largest redwood in the forest, I suggest you get an axe, or at the very least- a herring. If you want to dig a hole, be my guest, but realize that a shovel might work better, and if you use your knife, don't be aghast if it gets dull, and the edge doesn't pop hairs after hitting a rock or something. If you decide that you want to use a knife as a boat anchor in the dead sea, you have none to blame but yourself if you are disappointed in the amount of rust on it after a month. I'm sorry to demonstrate my point in ridiculous extremes, but I think a little common sense goes a long way in determining what a knife can and should be able to do. I'm a little agitated right now, I don't want to step on toes, I don't want to be perceived as 'attacking' someone's philosophy of the Holy Grail of knife design and expectation, and although I know my comments will generate some feedback, I'm also not suggesting I'm unwilling to learn something new.

Ashcraft
Click to expand...

Sorry Ashcraft - this kind of thing is just vague and makes me step back away from a maker when I hear this kind of thing. The idea that a knife has a 'proper use' easily pigeon holes you into a grey area where the maker can claim any activity aside from spreading butter on toast is abusive. That is fine if you are marketting butter knives, scalpels and razor blades.

Tell me I can't chop with it, do some prying on wood with it or baton with it nd the first thing I'll tell you is that you aren't making a bushcraft knives nor survival knives, you are making wall flowers and excuses.

I haven't really responded to this thread, but for me personally it really comes down to trust in the maker and a common understanding between myself and the maker on the kinds of things I'm going to use it for. That is perhaps why I almost buy from makers who post in W&SS to near exclusion. They follow our conversations and have a knowledge of the kinds of things we do. They develop blades with that knowledge. When or if their blade fails, they also have to live up to the community - not just the buyer - about that failure.

Every time I buy a knife that is marketted as a survival knife, I am thinking at the time of purchase that this knife might just be needed for that purpose.
 
kgd said:
Sorry Ashcraft - this kind of thing is just vague and makes me step back away from a maker when I hear this kind of thing. The idea that a knife has a 'proper use' easily pigeon holes you into a grey area where the maker can claim any activity aside from spreading butter on toast is abusive. That is fine if you are marketting butter knives, scalpels and razor blades.

Tell me I can't chop with it, do some prying on wood with it or baton with it nd the first thing I'll tell you is that you aren't making a bushcraft knives nor survival knives, you are making wall flowers and excuses.

I haven't really responded to this thread, but for me personally it really comes down to trust in the maker and a common understanding between myself and the maker on the kinds of things I'm going to use it for. That is perhaps why I almost buy from makers who post in W&SS to near exclusion. They follow our conversations and have a knowledge of the kinds of things we do. They develop blades with that knowledge. When or if their blade fails, they also have to live up to the community - not just the buyer - about that failure.

Every time I buy a knife that is marketted as a survival knife, I am thinking at the time of purchase that this knife might just be needed for that purpose.
Click to expand...

I'm not sure what you mean by "vague", I think I've been very clear of my opinions about the topic. As far as your assumption of my perception of blade abuse, I think you ought to leave that one to me, instead of putting words into my mouth. I have a good bead on things, and I know what misuse and abuse of a tool is. I'm not making any claims about what my knives should or should not be used for, that's your choice, and I'm not your babysitter. In my opinion, I would have no more legitimate claim to justification if I was to complain the CEO of General Motors about a car that I bought that wouldn't float. I'm really buffaloed over figuring out how I'm having such a difficult time trying to explain myself on this. A knife is a knife, and if designed well, executed well, and used properly (yes, without a doubt, there is a proper and improper use of a knife...) I can't imagine why it wouldn't give a lifetime of great service. Should I have simply said "I agree with Ed Fowler" and left it at that? One last thing here, I've tried to sell you, or anyone else here on this entire board NOTHING, so I would appreciate simply the opportunity to discuss this without suggestive and assumptive remarks about my integrity as a knifemaker. I'm not making knives with the outlook that my knives and their use or misuse will have to be defended in court, I just like to make them, and use the best materials that my education and conscience will allow, follow the designs that I deem appropriate for my own interests and needs to the best level that my ability (and sometimes patience...:D) will allow, and hopefully along the way learn something that will help next time. Have I gone so wrong somewhere?

Troy Ashcraft
 
One of the great things about these forums Troy (sorry I called you by your last name previously) is that it provides a somewhat honest place for both makers and purchasers to hash out their expectations and while talking about the wonderful topic of survival and wilderness.

My main point in my last post was simply that I really need to generate a lot of trust in a maker before I buy from them and in a sense I was trying to answer the OP in that statement. One of the ways I garner trust in a maker is by meeting them in person which is rare given geographic dispersion or knowing them as part of this community at large. In particularly, the guys who frequent W&SS are ones that I tend to trust the most. Mainly because through our extensive conversation that is this sub-forum, we have come to an understanding about issues of knife use.

I think you'll find that here in W&SS there is a pretty standard set of expectations about what a bushcraft knife or survival knife should be capable of doing and that many members here will immediately engage in testing activities on receiving a new knife. As group, we tend to all strongly encourage testing of any new knives we get before bringing them out into the field where our lives do depend on our tools. There was a fine example of a production knife from a reputable company chipping out on one of our users in the field which forced him to use a less ideal backup tool for the remainder of his trip. The chipping out of the blade was an obvious flaw of the knife and its heat treat and he would have been much better off knowing this before going camping than during. In this particular subforum, I think it is fair to say that we really only talk about user knives. People rarely flash up collector items and when they are displayed the comments about usability inevitably come to light.

I should also say that there is some equity in terms of makers and users here on these forums. When a knife fails to perform up to a users standards, they will post their issues and give the details of the situation. It doesn't always shake out that the community feels sympathy for the user when it turns out they did in fact have unrealistic expectations or did something as you put it that was unreasonable. Likewise, this subforum usually doesn't suffer makers who won't back up their products or who cry abuse at the drop of the hat.

I think we are all pretty reasonable here. Some of us spend a lot of time and contribute extensively to W&SS. We've seen a lot of different knives, both production and custom. We tested a lot of different knives in what we consider normal activities like: batoning with grain and cross grain wood, prying that wood open during the batoning, batoning the tip into softwood, prying out fatwood chunks, drilling out holes in wood with the tip in addition to various cutting, slicing and wood chopping.

It doesn't happen continuously, but we do get the odd member wondering into our little campfire here and telling us what we shouldn't be doing with our knives. Sometimes they get a polite rebuttle and some times we just try to set them straight.

I certainly didn't imply any hostility regarding your integrity as a knife maker but I was trying to make myself clear about my expectations of a knife sold bushcraft or survival knife. In fact I welcome your dialogue and perspective. Perhaps you could provide a little bit more clarity regarding what you think is abusive without getting into extremes like mentioning hockey mask wearing knife destoyers.

For example, I'll throw out a personal peeve of what I consider abuse, although other users here do in fact do this and I know a few SARs have posted on the need to do this with their knives in emergencies - digging in rocky soil. I've seen a pile of knives where the edge drastically chips out by digging and hitting rocks in the soil. From my perspective that activity isn't something I'd expect a knife to survive very well and if I destroyed a knife or its edge doing it, I'd chalk that one up to ill advised methodology.
 
KGD - forgive a short antidote: Gathering cows, sudden storm one hand was way out, very heavy snow, high wind and getting dark, visibility zero.
He rode down into a draw, hobbled three legs on his horse, found a slight source of cover in the sand stone bank, dug out debris and mud with his knife to give himself a little cover, scrounged sage brush and piled it in front of his shelter, was able to get a little to burn, but it burns quick and not much heat.

He held out through the night then headed the cows he was moving toward the roundup pasture. No one knew where he was or could offer any help until morning. He needed no help, his knife did suffer some, but held up.

It was what he had and it was enough knife.

Did he abuse it?
 
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