what's wrong whit Buck Knives?

Maybe I'm confused but 3v is a cpm steel and a benefit of the cpm process is more uniform carbide size and more evenly distribution of carbides. Are you using the term "fine" to say smaller carbides or less carbides or what?

I believe 3v has more carbides than the other listed steels although I'm uncertain on the size of the carbides.

Also where did you get that 1095, 420 were "fine" carbide steels? If you could site your source of information so I can get clarification that would be appreciated.

Also pocket stones are for touch up's in the field not full on reprofiling a blade, I can tell you which of the steels you listed will resist damage the most. 3v.

Maybe a more knowledgeable steel nut will come along and help us out.
pinnah said:
Which will be easier to reprofile with a pocket stone? A 5" blade of 3V at 58 Rc or the same blade made out of a fine carbide steel (1095, 420HC, 12C27) at 58 Rc
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Shinyedges,

Yes, I'm using "fine grained" in the way that Sandvik suggests to describe 12C27, which is similar to 420HC.

Sandvik asserts that, as a group, powdered steels...
have a much finer structure than the coarse-carbide steels, but the carbides still have about 200 times larger volume than the small carbides in the microstructure of Sandvik 12C27.
Click to expand...

http://smt.sandvik.com/en/products/...rent-steel-types/powder-metallurgical-steels/

http://smt.sandvik.com/en/products/.../knife-steel-knowledge/different-steel-types/


Does 3V have a much finer carbide structure than other powdered steels?

As I understand it, there's an inescapable trade-off between abrassion resistance and ease of sharpening. They're two sides of the same coin. Or different sides of the same carbide, perhaps better said.

EDITED TO ADD: I can definitely reprofile my Buck 420HC and Opinel or Mora 12C27 blades using a pocket stone and have. I can also repair my Schrade USA and Mora 1095 blades using a pocket stone. It's not fun, but it's possible. I can touch up my 440C blades using the same pocket stone, but I sure wouldn't want to reprofile it that way. I want my Lansky diamond kit for that.

What I'd like to know is, is 3v closer to 440C or 420HC in terms of ease of sharpening. Given that edge retention is so high, I have to believe it's tougher to sharpen too.
 
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I wasn't aware 1095 or 420 is a Sandvik steel.

And your are correct less carbides equals less edge retention, more carbides equals more edge retention. Ease of sharpening depends on more than just carbide content though although it is a large factor.

But your question of reprofiling a knife with a pocket stone was rather odd, as the entire point of a pocket stone was to be carried and used when AWAY from home for FIELD sharpening. Reprofiling on a pocket stone is silly.
pinnah said:
Shinyedges,

Yes, I'm using "fine grained" in the way that Sandvik suggests to describe 12C27, which is similar to 420HC.

Sandvik asserts that, as a group, powdered steels...


http://smt.sandvik.com/en/products/...rent-steel-types/powder-metallurgical-steels/

http://smt.sandvik.com/en/products/.../knife-steel-knowledge/different-steel-types/

Does 3V have a much finer carbide structure than other powdered steels?

As I understand it, there's an inescapable trade-off between abrassion resistance and ease of sharpening. They're two sides of the same coin. Or different sides of the same carbide, perhaps better said.
Click to expand...
 
I didn't say either 1095 or 420HC were Sandvik steels. I said that 420HC is similar to 12C27.

Reprofiling or repairing a blade with a pocket stone may be silly for your lifestyle, but it's definitely not silly in a backcountry or combat situation, which is why Ron Hood/TOPS, ESEE and Becker specify steels high carbon steels, which behave similarly to fine carbide stainless steels in terms of edge hold and ease of sharpening.
 
Reprofiling and repairing are two different things.

Sharpening a nick out of a blade and changing the edge from 15dps to 10dps is VASTLY different.

Ever been deployed? I have. Do you live in the back country? I do. Lol

I carry a knife in 3v daily. ZERO ISSUES.

You classified 1095 and 420 with sandvik steels by calling them fine carbide. I asked what context you where using fine carbide and where you got that 1095 in particular is a fine carbide steel like sandvik
Steels.
pinnah said:
I didn't say either 1095 or 420HC were Sandvik steels. I said that 420HC is similar to 12C27.

Reprofiling or repairing a blade with a pocket stone may be silly for your lifestyle, but it's definitely not silly in a backcountry or combat situation, which is why Ron Hood/TOPS, ESEE and Becker specify steels high carbon steels, which behave similarly to fine carbide stainless steels in terms of edge hold and ease of sharpening.
Click to expand...
 
Tons of time in the backcountry. Thanks for your service.

Which is harder to repair with a pocket stone? 3V or 1095/420HC/12C27?
 
shinyedges said:
Maybe I'm confused but 3v is a cpm steel and a benefit of the cpm process is more uniform carbide size and more evenly distribution of carbides. Are you using the term "fine" to say smaller carbides or less carbides or what?

I believe 3v has more carbides than the other listed steels although I'm uncertain on the size of the carbides.

Also where did you get that 1095, 420 were "fine" carbide steels? If you could site your source of information so I can get clarification that would be appreciated.

Also pocket stones are for touch up's in the field not full on reprofiling a blade, I can tell you which of the steels you listed will resist damage the most. 3v.

Maybe a more knowledgeable steel nut will come along and help us out.
Click to expand...

I can't speak of his source but I can for mine.

3 days and two nights off the trails hiking primitive camping sitting around the most modern light source I could construct in the form of a fire sitting there maintaining my tools I rely on. 3V is not known to hold that much better of an edge than them "low end" steels and it rusts. If the lesson isn't learned after the first time you learn it the next time. If all someone has is what they are told then they won't actually know until it is experienced. The point not getting across to ***.

A charpy machine, a carta test is invalid once someone steps foot out on a trail for several days. Sounds crazy and out of this world doesn't it? Well it's not.

Now I'm going to ask you to please stop trying to get a rise out of me. I am not into that. Just accept many people have different life experiences than others. It's normal. *** are absolutely not right telling me, like ***'ve been told, that I am wrong. I am absolutely positive I am not right for what *** do. Sounds like *** had a day on the farm and tool around a little to me here and there. Don't be shocked if I tell *** them short seldom adventures of ****s would have been just as satisfactorily achieved if *** used one of them low end knives. The difference between *** and me is I am not telling *** what to use and why it's better as in its because it's what I use.

When a steel can go all day on the trails a few days from the home workshop sharpening tools and be brought back to start of the trip sharp in less than ten minutes and most the time in less than five. Well that steel is a winner. Oh and it won't rust like 3V will. Bonus, and I didn't have to spend 6.2x more to carry a more difficult to maintain rusting blade.
 
While I haven't repaired any of the steels you mentioned with a pocket stone, I would venture to say the sandvik steel followed by 420, then 1095.

How much of an actual difference in time is really a guess because there are SO many factors like size of damage, hardness, what kind of pocket stone..

Something to consider is if the tougher steels would even take damage, it is very possible 3v will take no damage where the other steels you listed take damage.

Its late and I'm lazy but I can take pics of 2 different knives in 3v and 2 different knives in 1095 that I have personally used. From my use 3v can and will shrug off what damages simple carbon steels.
pinnah said:
Tons of time in the backcountry. Thanks for your service.

Which is harder to repair with a pocket stone? 3V or 1095/420HC/12C27?
Click to expand...
 
Duane this is my last reply to you for MANY reasons.

You speak of rust on 3v??? I own blades in 3v and it is EXTREMELY rust resistant. You don't know what your talking about once AGAIN. Because you've NEVER used 3v lol

Might help if you had experience with what your saying.
 
Shinyedges, I would be interested to see the knives.

I think there's plenty of room for differences in tastes on the 3v vs 1095/420HC/12C27 choice.

I've not used 3v so I can only speculate and listen to stories I hear from people who do (plenty of chipped edges reports).

My primary point about Bucks 420HC is that I personally can't tell the difference between them. Which is to say, I think Buck's 420HC is as good and as relevant as 1095, which still has tons of fans.
 
pinnah said:
I didn't say either 1095 or 420HC were Sandvik steels. I said that 420HC is similar to 12C27.

Reprofiling or repairing a blade with a pocket stone may be silly for your lifestyle, but it's definitely not silly in a backcountry or combat situation, which is why Ron Hood/TOPS, ESEE and Becker specify steels high carbon steels, which behave similarly to fine carbide stainless steels in terms of edge hold and ease of sharpening.
Click to expand...

I'm sorry man, reprofiling a blade "during a combat situation" is definitely silly. As for the backcountry, I generally carry equipment that's tried and true, specifically so I'm not making some adjustment like reprofiling in that sort of situation. You may not think needing to reprofile a blade during such times is silly, but can we at least agree that those are entirely manufactured circumstances, and not any sort of rational argument against using knives made out of better steel?
 
Duane Sanders said:
I can't speak of his source but I can for mine.

3 days and two nights off the trails hiking primitive camping sitting around the most modern light source I could construct in the form of a fire sitting there maintaining my tools I rely on. 3V is not known to hold that much better of an edge than them "low end" steels and it rusts. If the lesson isn't learned after the first time you learn it the next time. If all someone has is what they are told then they won't actually know until it is experienced. The point not getting across to ***.

A charpy machine, a carta test is invalid once someone steps foot out on a trail for several days. Sounds crazy and out of this world doesn't it? Well it's not.

Now I'm going to ask you to please stop trying to get a rise out of me. I am not into that. Just accept many people have different life experiences than others. It's normal. *** are absolutely not right telling me, like ***'ve been told, that I am wrong. I am absolutely positive I am not right for what *** do. Sounds like *** had a day on the farm and tool around a little to me here and there. Don't be shocked if I tell *** them short seldom adventures of ****s would have been just as satisfactorily achieved if *** used one of them low end knives. The difference between *** and me is I am not telling *** what to use and why it's better as in its because it's what I use.

When a steel can go all day on the trails a few days from the home workshop sharpening tools and be brought back to start of the trip sharp in less than ten minutes and most the time in less than five. Well that steel is a winner. Oh and it won't rust like 3V will. Bonus, and I didn't have to spend 6.2x more to carry a more difficult to maintain rusting blade.
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(facepalm)

I don't really know what else can be said at this point. Duane doesn't get it, and once again his fantasyland BS has sullied what was an actually good conversation. Criminy.
 
shinyedges said:
Duane this is my last reply to you for MANY reasons.

You speak of rust on 3v??? I own blades in 3v and it is EXTREMELY rust resistant. You don't know what your talking about once AGAIN. Because you've NEVER used 3v lol

Might help if you had experience with what your saying.
Click to expand...

Ten bucks says this guy's gotten 3V mixed up with 01.
 
Quiet said:
I'm sorry man, reprofiling a blade "during a combat situation" is definitely silly.
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What?
You never learned the ultra-secret "reprofile my blade to defeat different levels of body armour during battle" move?
One simply holds the knife in one hand, while the other hand holds the combination bullet-blocker/sharpening stone.
Your lack of pants keeps the enemy properly distracted due to twirling motion.
(remember, no pants...it only works without pants...)
 
And back to the original thread topic:
-Buck knives are just fine
-There are different levels/prices of Buck knives
-There are more than two types of steel for a reason
-People will continue to have opinions, most of which are wrong. ;)
 
Quiet, yes, I shouldn't have said reprofiling. But repairing, definitely.

While I've not directly served and been deployed, my work puts in my constant contact with folks who have. Also spend a lot of time in the back country. Repairing a damaged edge while on deployment without guaranteed access to decent stones is definitely something I've heard repeatedly from guys on deployment. It's also something I've faced in the backcountry (and in m shop).

Repairing 1095/420HC/12C27 is relatively easy. Being able to sharpen and repair an edge in the field with a pocket stone is definitey not a made up scenario.
 
I'll snap some pics in the morning, the two knives in 3v are a Winkler belt knife TAD edition and a big Chris personal edc. Nathan the machinist has a damn good line, I hope he doesn't mind I use it "if you haven't had 3v this hard and thin it will blow your mind" .

The two in 1095 are Beckers and are actually 0-176 steel which is slightly modded 1095, but extremely similar in performance.

Seriously, it is fantastic. I really wish EVERYONE could try it to see what its like. Take a look at Nathan's videos of is blades in 3v cutting nails and cinder blocks, and his knives have thin geometry at pretty high hardness.

As for chipping, I haven't seen it what so ever in my Winkler or big Chris.
pinnah said:
Shinyedges, I would be interested to see the knives.

I think there's plenty of room for differences in tastes on the 3v vs 1095/420HC/12C27 choice.

I've not used 3v so I can only speculate and listen to stories I hear from people who do (plenty of chipped edges reports).

My primary point about Bucks 420HC is that I personally can't tell the difference between them. Which is to say, I think Buck's 420HC is as good and as relevant as 1095, which still has tons of fans.
Click to expand...
 
pinnah said:
Being able to sharpen and repair an edge in the field with a pocket stone is definitey not a made up scenario.
Click to expand...

There are many grades of pocket stones, and it doesn't cost much to get one that will sharpen whatever steel you like best.
 
shinyedges said:
Duane this is my last reply to you for MANY reasons.

You speak of rust on 3v??? I own blades in 3v and it is EXTREMELY rust resistant. You don't know what your talking about once AGAIN. Because you've NEVER used 3v lol

Might help if you had experience with what your saying.
Click to expand...

Yes I have. I am rarely alone on my multi night trips. My brother who collects everything who has way more cooler knives than *** got brings any and everything out with us. These days he sticks with SK5. Guess how he came to that conclusion?

I have lived in the back country my whole life and deployed several times as an 11B. I know what knives are used on them 15 month rotations where the work load is 5-7 days out and 2 back to refit the entire 15 months. I'm still not telling anyone what they need to use or what I was told. *** refuse to accept lessons learned from people with different demands from a knife.

I am in a unique position where I don't have to listen to what I'm told. I have my own set of life experiences to draw on. Stop getting so fired up over it. No one is right, so stop telling me I am wrong. Yes 3V rusts. Seen it. Get out a little more and so will you. 5160 is just as rust resistant.
 
pinnah said:
Quiet, yes, I shouldn't have said reprofiling. But repairing, definitely.

While I've not directly served and been deployed, my work puts in my constant contact with folks who have. Also spend a lot of time in the back country. Repairing a damaged edge while on deployment without guaranteed access to decent stones is definitely something I've heard repeatedly from guys on deployment. It's also something I've faced in the backcountry (and in m shop).

Repairing 1095/420HC/12C27 is relatively easy. Being able to sharpen and repair an edge in the field with a pocket stone is definitey not a made up scenario.
Click to expand...

Well, let's follow that train of thought. If you need to repair an edge, that would probably be because you were abusing the blade, no? So, given that that sort of misuse might be a possibility....why wouldn't we want to use a knife made of stronger, tougher steel again? Because I can tell you, if I was going to be in some sort of fantasy situation wherein my knife was required to function in some manner outside of its design parameters, my lesser knives are staying home, and I'm taking my Bussekin. Then, I can just sidestep the need for edge repair in the field altogether. :)
 
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