Whelp. Time to order some more steel. So what's next?

XtianAus said:
I don't want to get greedy now, ...but we also need a pre-order...😁
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I'm pretty late on the Shiv pre-order and I'm catching some flack for it. Well deserved flack. When I start these pre-orders I lack the crystal ball to know what other aspects of my business are going to interfere with production and I'm not willing to just do the pre-order at the expense of everything else, I need to have the whole shop flowing. The K20 swords (which are early) made the Shiv late. That is not the fault of the people who bought the Shiv, it's mine. But this is the reason why I don't think I want to do pre-orders anymore. It gives me a black eye and it screws up our flow here. Too many complainers. The worst thing about the complainers is that they're right. I hate that. I can sell everything that I make. The pre-orders are for the convenience of people that don't like the regular sales or who want something special. And I want to accommodate these people. But not at the cost of my reputation. Pre-orders are bad business.
 
Nathan the Machinist said:
I think I lost at least one very good customer over the late shiv. I can't begin to apologize enough.
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That's certainly unfortunate, but also seems a bit crazy that someone would freak out over a custom order being a bit late (kinda like someone freaking out over light stamps). TBH I don't remember when they were "supposed" to ship. I put in my order, paid, and then forgot about it, knowing they would be ready when they were ready. Just looked back at the pre-order thread and you said you'd give refunds to those who requested it if it didn't ship within a year. So, what, it took 16 months instead of 12? Oh no, the horror!!! Shit happens. No hit to reputation in my book.
 
Nathan the Machinist said:
I think that Elmax doesn't have the good reputation that it deserves because a lot of makers didn't do a good job with it.

Magna cut is going to catch this even worse. It is a fantastic outstanding steel, but it is tempered so low that many, perhaps even most, makers and manufacturers are going to burn the edge sharpening it. And perhaps even grinding it to shape in the hardened state. And they will deny it deny it deny it and lie to themselves that heat at the edge when sharpening is a problem because they don't ever feel the blade even get particularly hot. Just remember that an instantaneous rise to a thousand degrees .005" up the edge (The part that actually cuts) will raise the temperature of the knife by one degree at your fingertips. (I did the math once) You'll never feel it. And so people deny it is a problem. There's going to be so many people doing a bad job of magna cut (grinding it to shape and also sharpening it) that I predict it is going to suffer some pretty bad blows to its reputation due to the incompetence of manufacturers.
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I appreciate your thoughts here Nathan. Agreed on the Elmax. I have some shining examples, and I think it's an excellent steel. One of the tougher stainlesses.

Nathan the Machinist said:
I think I lost at least one very good customer over the late shiv.
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That's kind of ridiculous. :rolleyes: I understand what you're saying with the pre-orders, but on the flip side, the pre-order allows a guaranteed sale. Many of us VERY MUCH appreciate that!!! If someone is getting in on a preorder, they should implicitly understand that the delivery date is never guaranteed. Just like a custom, it's done when it's done...
 
I may be in the minority, but my wallet doesn't mind the Shiv being a little late after paying for the K20. The Shiv wasn't a knife that planned on using right away either, but that may not have been the case for the upset customer.
 
jlauffer said:
That's certainly unfortunate, but also seems a bit crazy that someone would freak out over a custom order being a bit late (kinda like someone freaking out over light stamps). TBH I don't remember when they were "supposed" to ship. I put in my order, paid, and then forgot about it, knowing they would be ready when they were ready. Just looked back at the pre-order thread and you said you'd give refunds to those who requested it if it didn't ship within a year. So, what, it took 16 months instead of 12? Oh no, the horror!!! Shit happens. No hit to reputation in my book.
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The customer did not freak out. He just requested a refund and then I've noticed him selling his collection.

I said they would ship by, I think October, then they started shipping this year. They probably won't be finished shipping until summer. He's entirely correct I am in the wrong here. There's really no debate.
 
And, I could have made the deadline, had I made it my top priority. But I'm running a business here and my top priority is maintaining the efficiency we need to have in order to be a viable business. I could have made it happen. But at the expense of idle machines and idle people which is perhaps what I should have done, but it's not something that I'm willing to do.
 
Nathan the Machinist said:
I think I lost at least one very good customer over the late shiv. I can't begin to apologize enough.
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I appreciate it probably feels crappy to deal with this stuff but if they are upset over relatively minor timing issues that feels like it’s on them and you are pretty clear that these are best estimate timelines and subject to shit happening. If anyone has EVER had a preorder with ANY knife maker (Busse, custom guys, etc) they should expect that preorder timelines are the furthest thing from set in stone and the fact that you and Jo are actively engaging with customers and communicating updates is far and beyond the scope of normal “knife maker” business. I guess what I’m trying to say is if someone is upset with you how you handle preorders, it’s because they are unreasonable and not because you’re doing it wrong.

I feel like you will disappoint more customers (like me!) if you stop doing preorders. I know I would not have the collection I do or the neat variants if you only offered standard models and I genuinely enjoy having some open preorders with you to look forward to receiving.

It would be awesome if you or Jo or someone could post a monthly update at the end of the preorder threads for preorders that are currently open with a status update, I know I would be excited to hear how things are coming along whether on or off track, and it might reduce the ad hoc inquiries but I am not trying to make extra work for you guys or tell you how to run your business.
 
Some projects like the K20 really wouldn't be feasible without a pre-order. Those kinds of projects really don't even make sense for a knife maker to go into but they're just cool and I want to do them and the pre-order makes it possible. On that pre-order I gave myself a 2-year window. I seriously doubt I'm going to need 2 years, I did the first run in less than 2 years and I now have programs and fixtures. So I'm hedging my bets there and I think a lot of people did not get in on that order because they didn't want to wait two years. And that's fine.
 
Nathan the Machinist said:
And, I could have made the deadline, had I made it my top priority. But I'm running a business here and my top priority is maintaining the efficiency we need to have in order to be a viable business. I could have made it happen. But at the expense of idle machines and idle people which is perhaps what I should have done, but it's not something that I'm willing to do.
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Really appreciate you sharing

It's impossible to please everyone, you're a smart guy and I bet you'll do whatever is needed to keep your business and reputation positive

High five
 
If he is the customer who I think he is, yes he was an early adapter of your knives before the moniker CPK was even an official trademark on here. Further, again assuming that I am correct in guessing his identity, I don't think that he decided to move on because of the Shiv preorder being "late". For the record, he had stated his disgruntlement regarding the way that Fridays sales and flash sales were being managed. If your takeaway from this long time customer moving on from the brand is to discontinue preorders altogether, I hazard to say that there will be some more losses like him (just my 2Cs). Ultimately you are just too hard on yourself as sometimes people just move on for whatever reason, don't take such breakups so harshly :)
 
I'm not an economist and realize that there are lots of factors at play here.

Naysayers might say that getting money up front is an interest free loan with no guaranteed payoff date. (Though pre-order prices, I believe, generally are less than prices at later sales. Correct me if I'm wrong.)

On the other hand, I don't know how feasible it is to run the business, (buy steel, keep machines running, pay employees, feed the family, etc), without an influx of money to keep things going while the goods are being manufactured and distributed...even if you can sell everything you make (as it's ready).

My own personal experience, (and much of what I've seen secondhand over the decades), has demonstrated that paying up front has not been a good policy for the buyer, more often than not. (I am speaking almost exclusively about the sphere of custom knives.)

That said, I have complete confidence in CPK to honor their commitments and have never worried about the exact timing, nor the safety of my investment. (That is a personal decision everyone must make for themselves when it comes to their finances and their collecting.)

I'm sure this is something which would keep me up at night were I in your shoes...but you seem to have things well in hand, despite the hiccups, Nate. And I think the vast majority of us would support you regardless of how you choose to confront these issues.
 
I don't fixate on the anticipated schedule of preorders. I'm very glad to have preorders where I can choose options, lock in a good price etc. Frankly it won't hurt if my shiv doesn't come soon (too many packages arriving recently).
I like having preorders in the hopper, it's like anticipating Christmas.
 
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