Fun example, I own a custom Rick Hunter myself. He's not the first to use the wishbone seatstays, but it's now recognized as one of "his" designs, largely due to his fillet brazing work. The tubes were often sold only by a few ruputable steel makers, Columbus, Reynolds, etc. Then again, I've worked with some taiwanese manufacturers that make pretty much all mainstream brands, very similar to KAI. Not to say the quality isn't as good as a handbuilt custom frame, but it certainly is a lot harder for people to wait for a Sachs, Hunter or anyone with a few years wait.
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When is everyone okay with copying designs?
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Fun example, I own a custom Rick Hunter myself. He's not the first to use the wishbone seatstays, but it's now recognized as one of "his" designs, largely due to his fillet brazing work. The tubes were often sold only by a few ruputable steel makers, Columbus, Reynolds, etc. Then again, I've worked with some taiwanese manufacturers that make pretty much all mainstream brands, very similar to KAI. Not to say the quality isn't as good as a handbuilt custom frame, but it certainly is a lot harder for people to wait for a Sachs, Hunter or anyone with a few years wait.
They do have issues with it. So much so they allow discussion of the problem on their very own forums. So much so that they will go after and prosecute sellers/resellers of counterfeits of their product here in the states, because frankly, prosecuting the counterfeiters themselves in their home country is a high risk/low benefit proposition that would take an entire team of expensive lawyering to even begin to manage. These costs would have to be figured into their bottom line and passed on to customers. Once the problem becomes widespread enough they will have to make hard choices about spending that money and passing the increased cost of this nasty business on to the consumer, litigating any and all comers or going out of business. To say that counterfeits/clones do not hurt the hobby/businesses is wishful, selfish and ludicrous thinking.
I hadn't really considered that I guess... When a knife I like is discontinued from the manufacturer, I haven't gone out looking for clones of it. Never even occurred to me actually (my favorite discontinued knives aren't really worth cloning in my opinion, but a cloner may disagree).
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I've never seen anyone who purchased a counterfeit knife that didn't have a justification for doing so. But that doesn't obviate the fact that those who buy counterfeit knives are dealing with thieves. The only question is whether the justification for purchasing a counterfeit knife trumps the morality of doing so. Despite all the huffing and puffing that goes on around here, that will always be a personal decision.
Bladeforums position is that counterfeiting should not and cannot be countenanced. Not only is that the only rational position Bladeforums can take, it happens to be one I support. But we have to recognize that by assuming that position, we have turned a blind eye to the realities of the marketplace. Counterfeit knives exist. People buy them . . . on purpose more often than not, I suspect. And whether or not we choose to ignore counterfeits, they aren't going to go away.
Bladeforums position is that counterfeiting should not and cannot be countenanced. Not only is that the only rational position Bladeforums can take, it happens to be one I support. But we have to recognize that by assuming that position, we have turned a blind eye to the realities of the marketplace. Counterfeit knives exist. People buy them . . . on purpose more often than not, I suspect. And whether or not we choose to ignore counterfeits, they aren't going to go away.
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Actually, Bladeforums position is that no counterfeit items may be sold on this site. Unbranded clones are tolerated.
We may discuss issues of both and how they affect the hobby.
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What is considered an unbranded clone? The reason I ask is because I have seen threads get shut down on knives that have a close resemblance to an existing knife but it lacks any identifying makers marks. I am just looking for clarification as to what would be considered counterfeit and what is actually allowed.
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You are getting confused, maybe that's my fault.
My point has little to do with 'third line shifts' although it is an example.
I choose to see that the only rational explanation for the production of Chinese made CRKT/Spyderco/Boker+ etc knives is through outsourcing, and that would involve Chinese factories that already make knives like Ganzo, Sarenmu, etc.....
Since none of these American companies have set up their own production facilities in China, it's not so hard to figure out how this all works.
However, you may continue with the 'many, many other explanations' but there is only 3 possibilities:
The knives are made by the companies factory in China. (Nope)
The knives are made by some random company that only makes knives for the American companies stated above. (This is the one you will choose)
The knives are made by Chinese manufactures who already posses the capabilities to make knives, and where contracted to make certain knives for the above mention companies..
I will take door #3, because I like things that make sense.
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Makes sense to A.G. Russell too:
September, 2011
Many of my friends and customers are wondering, some out loud and some only to themselves, why A. G. Russell has given up the fight and is having knives produced in China.
The simplest and most basic answer to that question is "to stay in business". With the bankruptcy of Schrade and Camillus, and the loss of Arrowhead, any hope I had of continuing to make any substantial volume of my designs in the United States was gone.
I took a new trapper design to Germany and they returned a quote of $50,000 for tooling plus a cost of $75 per knife. These costs make it simply impossible to produce my designs in Germany. We have created two very special, traditional slip joint knives in Japan during the past couple of years. The quality of those knives is unbelievable for a "production" knife, well worth the $150-$175 that we must charge. But at this price level I find it hard to sell enough to cover the cost of the space in the catalog.
Like so many of my customers, I have railed against the movement of the Cutlery Industry to China, BUT it became obvious that if I wanted to stay in business I would have to produce more and more of my own designs and find a way to offer those knives at prices my customers would pay. The only answer was to find one or more makers in Taiwan and China that I could teach to make the quality I require. I was fortunate - I had a customer in Taiwan who loves American handmade knives. He also owns a small knife factory in Taiwan and another in China with access to others. He chose a factory to produce our first Chinese-made knife, the Beak. After three or four samples and a lot of work back and fourth, we had a fantastic knife at a reasonable price.
In the 1980s, when I moved production of my designs to Japan, after I lost Hen & Rooster in Germany, I got hundreds of letters, some of them really nasty, even threatening. We continued, and the resistance faded as people began to recognize the quality and value of those knives. Once again I am getting that resistance from people who do not like the way their world has changed. All I can say is that no matter how much I resisted, the world has changed. I cannot change it back. Some people cannot bear to own a knife made in China, some cannot bear to own a knife made outside of the U. S. I understand this. Unfortunately, I cannot solve the problem. The choices are higher prices or "Made in China". The quality we are offering is fantastic; as good as, or better than, can be found anywhere today, U.S.A. or not.
all the best,
A. G.
Source: http://www.agrussell.com/Articles/a/215/
That could explain why counterfeits . . . especially the higher-priced counterfeits . . . are virtually indistinguishable from originals. We teach the Chinese how to make better knives . . . maybe even provide them the equipment to do that with . . . and lo and behold, they use those resources to make better counterfeits. Funny thing is, I actually read somewhere that knives coming out of China may be built to closer tolerances than knives coming out of the USA because their equipment is newer than ours is. Imagine that.
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I think it makes for a parody of any discussion to give so many different words the same meaning. I would use counterfeit & fake interchangeably, but leave the others out, they are different. Especially in this thread, the OP asked where we draw the line: if all terms are interchangeable drawing a line becomes pointless.
How is it possible to steal a design that is in the public domain? Taking is not always stealing. Stealing refers to a criminal act.
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Makes sense to me. Now if we could just get everybody to agree to your suggestion, we'd be in business.
Makes sense to me. Now if we could just get everybody to agree to your suggestion, we'd be in business.
Should be easy, on a big internet forum...
But, this doesn't make any sense.
Most of the clones AND fakes we're talking about are not identical to the real production items. And they change over time as the counterfeiters improve their imitation. Why would a company that is already making Model X for Spyderco need to get better at making a Model X Spyderco?
American companies go to China to "teach" the Chinese to make their product to a certain standard. But they really aren't "teaching" the Chinese anything that they don't know. What's really happening is that they are setting a quality standard. That's about expectations and production cost - not how to heat treat metal or use a stamping machine.
So I really do not understand what you are talking about. Which "fake" knife are you saying is just coming off the real knife line?
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Ok here is why i dont think your theory makes sense. Look at all the fakes out there being made today. The vast majority of them are based on models that were NEVER made in china. They are copying designs of custom makers and they are doing it with an accuracy and attention to detail never seen before out of that region. I would even venture to say that many of the designs being counterfeited are done so well that whatever machines they were using to make their low grade import products for big corporations wouldnt be capable of the precision he fakes are being made to. And seing none of these higher end models were ever made in china to begin with they had to have learned how to make them by some other means. You arent learning about ceramic detents, multirow bearing systems and advanced anodizing and heat coloring methods by making low end imports for larger corporations. And to complete a run of knives takes a couple months in many cases. You cant just pump out fakes overnight or in between your regular work. It would seem to me that with how refularly the fakes are hitting the streets that whatever facility is pumping them out is doing so on a continual basis. And since an operation like that would be fairly impossible to hide from visiting business partners it doesnt seem like this is the doing of a chinese factory making a decent living off of contract work that could dry up if caught double dipping. Either way my point wasnt to prove you were in fact wrong. I was simply arguing that you are stating opinion as a fact to which you admitted so. So im all good.
I've kind of lost track of where this thread was going, but on the nature of the counterfeits and clones coming out of China, it's important to remember 2 things:
1. The Chinese are very good at making and/or assembling stuff. We're used to thinking of the colonialized China of the 18th and 19th centuries, when it was a technological backwater. But China has historically been a major producer and trader of goods going back to 200 BCE or so, when the Silk Road got its start. The phone in your pocket, the computer you are reading this on and the TV you will be in front of tonight are all witnesses to that fact. And it's not all copying Western stuff. Take a look at the intellectual property rankings here (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_Intellectual_Property_Indicators, and you'll find China near the top of every list where the measure is not per million of population (where their huge population drags them down).
2. I doubt that Chinese knife manufacturers in general are much concerned with the US market. They sell some on the online auction sites or directly with some exporters, but they make their big money on their own enormous domestic market and in exporting to India, Russia, Indonesia, etc. So a manufacturer has plenty of incentive to hire and train workers (who, even at high levels, make far less than US counterparts) and buy the best equipment he can afford. And we're not talking about atomic centrifuges. We're talking about the same kind of high-tolerance machinery that they use to manufacture other goods for themselves and their other markets. Or the US when it's worth their while to export to us. In short, very available and accessible machinery.
1. The Chinese are very good at making and/or assembling stuff. We're used to thinking of the colonialized China of the 18th and 19th centuries, when it was a technological backwater. But China has historically been a major producer and trader of goods going back to 200 BCE or so, when the Silk Road got its start. The phone in your pocket, the computer you are reading this on and the TV you will be in front of tonight are all witnesses to that fact. And it's not all copying Western stuff. Take a look at the intellectual property rankings here (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_Intellectual_Property_Indicators, and you'll find China near the top of every list where the measure is not per million of population (where their huge population drags them down).
2. I doubt that Chinese knife manufacturers in general are much concerned with the US market. They sell some on the online auction sites or directly with some exporters, but they make their big money on their own enormous domestic market and in exporting to India, Russia, Indonesia, etc. So a manufacturer has plenty of incentive to hire and train workers (who, even at high levels, make far less than US counterparts) and buy the best equipment he can afford. And we're not talking about atomic centrifuges. We're talking about the same kind of high-tolerance machinery that they use to manufacture other goods for themselves and their other markets. Or the US when it's worth their while to export to us. In short, very available and accessible machinery.
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CRKT drifter is probably the best example. Also the SOG Safety and CRKT Kiss. Plus there is one out now that is exactly like a Cryo. These are all branded under various Chinese company names but their US company counter parts are no doubt made in the same factory. As far as actual counterfeits? Who knows who or where those are made. Wouldn't be too far of a stretch to think SRM, Ganzo, or Navy have some hand in that pot.
This is simply not true. The lengths they go to in order to copy the PM2 and Southard alone shows their interest. These copies are quite close and show a level of sophistication and manufacture technique that they didn't just pull out of their butt. They can literally produce a knife for pocket change and sell it here for a huge mark up. And if you look at the ease in which they can get their goods into this country compared to others, the amount of money they can make selling here is clear. You also add in knife restrictions within even their own market, and the US becomes even more lucrative.
First off, I don't think "they" really works when you're talking about 1.3 billion people. Some of "them" will make money in a cottage counterfeit industry. But those "they" aren't all of "them" and their enormous economy.
To your first point, are you saying that if we bought a Sanrenmu Drifter knock off, it would be 100% parts compatible with a CRKT Drifter? Same screw hole placement, etc?
You're confusing US knife with US market. PM2 is a desirable knife. But I bet they sell a lot more of them outside the U.S. market, where currency valuation differences, supply chain and customs oversight make fakes far more affordable and accessible than the real thing.
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No, they is the correct word. As in they, the folks who make knives in China. No need to look for an argument to get into that simply isn't there.
It is not a knock off. It is the same knife. CRKT has been having them made in China for years. You can buy them direct from China with a different brand name and at a cheaper price.
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