When is everyone okay with copying designs?

[PURPLEDC]

CRKT drifter is probably the best example. Also the SOG Safety and CRKT Kiss. Plus there is one out now that is exactly like a Cryo. These are all branded under various Chinese company names but their US company counter parts are no doubt made in the same factory. As far as actual counterfeits? Who knows who or where those are made. Wouldn't be too far of a stretch to think SRM, Ganzo, or Navy have some hand in that pot.



This is simply not true. The lengths they go to in order to copy the PM2 and Southard alone shows their interest. These copies are quite close and show a level of sophistication and manufacture technique that they didn't just pull out of their butt. They can literally produce a knife for pocket change and sell it here for a huge mark up. And if you look at the ease in which they can get their goods into this country compared to others, the amount of money they can make selling here is clear. You also add in knife restrictions within even their own market, and the US becomes even more lucrative.

Aside from the knives looking identical has there been anything in the way of documentation, official statement by CRKT or SOG that would support these claims. What I am having a problem with is I have heard these rumors before but no one seems to know where the information first originated. Now certain elements to a knife are similar to a fingerprint and its easy to spot that two knives came from the same place but In most cases when you see clones that seem identical it becomes very apparent that they have minor differences that eliminate the possibility of them coming from the same source. So what besides a thread similar to this one is there documented proof that this has happened?

As for certain chinese citizens specifically targeting the US market I am not so sure that is true. I think they are targeting popular knives rather than specific geographic regions. Right now they seem to really be into reproducing russian knives. While those are popular here they are popular everywhere. The reason I feel they arent specifically targeting the USA for which designs they decide to copy is because they have not replicated certain designs that would seem like no brainers as far as profit goes. Spyderco, zt , hinderer and CRK are easy targets because knives from these manufacturers are desired everywhere. And only a few sellers in china so far have been brave enough to try and sell their stuff on ebay. Most sales are done on chinese sites that just happen to ship world wide. I have been told by more than one source that the real reason some of the higher end clones exist is to supply the demand for those style of knives because the originals are so expensive in china that only the incredibly wealthy have the ability to enjoy them. How much truth is in that I have no idea. I just think if their eyes were set to kill with us certain US knife designs would have all ready been copied.

 

[craytab]

Aside from the knives looking identical has there been anything in the way of documentation, official statement by CRKT or SOG that would support these claims. What I am having a problem with is I have heard these rumors before but no one seems to know where the information first originated. Now certain elements to a knife are similar to a fingerprint and its easy to spot that two knives came from the same place but In most cases when you see clones that seem identical it becomes very apparent that they have minor differences that eliminate the possibility of them coming from the same source. So what besides a thread similar to this one is there documented proof that this has happened?

That is a good point. And this also adds another wrinkle to the discussion. No, I don't think there has been a statement from CRKT or SOG on this topic. They would be foolish to do so. I mean, the same KISS or Drifter CRKT sells for $40 you can buy for $10 (or whatever it is). The knives are made in China. We know that for a fact. If you look at them, they are exactly the same. So like where all these knives come from, we don't know a lot about who makes them, where they are made, or if they are made in the same factories with direct counterfeits.

It would seem we have 3 categories we are talking about. Out right counterfeits. Clones or homages. Then we have knives made for a US company that are also sold under different branding.

 

[RX-79G]

It is not a knock off. It is the same knife. CRKT has been having them made in China for years. You can buy them direct from China with a different brand name and at a cheaper price.

Which knife is the same knife? The Sanrenmu 707? Here's a video where you can see a number of machining differences:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dc1yUHvke3w

If SRM is making both, why would they move the right mounting hole for the pocket clip and change the jimping on their version?

 

[craytab]

Which knife is the same knife? The Sanrenmu 707? Here's a video where you can see a number of machining differences:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dc1yUHvke3w

If SRM is making both, why would they move the right mounting hole for the pocket clip and change the jimping on their version?

This is the video I just watched. Looks the same to me:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DIM_ZbSc2HA

It's a production knife. There are going to be variations, especially over time.

 

[Rhinoknives1]

To the best of my memory CRKT knives have always been made in china.

There are two counties that claim to be the real china! Yep! Taiwan which is where Chang kai-Shek.

Also known as "Cash My Check" of the nationals fled to the island of Formosa when he lost the mainland to Mao and the commies.

CRKT was make in Taiwan first then some time a decade or two back they started having them make on the mainland and perhaps the mainland start copying them as well?

Originally they were made from Japanese steel in Taiwan.

 

[flipe8]

I've never been a fan of products that aren't the real thing.

Edit- I asked if people would be ok with a domestic company producing a discontinued design, specifically the Regular Sebenza. My own opinion would be yes, provided the original designer was ok with it.

 

[bighill36]

I've always wanted an Essee Izula, but just couldn't part with $50 bucks to own one. Well, yesterday I saw an Izula clone on a well known auction site selling for $5 bucks (And that included shipping) Yes, I knowingly bought a counterfeit. I was expecting to have a bad case of insomnia last night----tossing and turning and all. But guess what ? I got a really good nights sleep. I won't see my little fake for a month or two, but I'm ok with that---gives me something to look forward to !

 

[craytab]

I've always wanted an Essee Izula, but just couldn't part with $50 bucks to own one. Well, yesterday I saw an Izula clone on a well known auction site selling for $5 bucks (And that included shipping) Yes, I knowingly bought a counterfeit. I was expecting to have a bad case of insomnia last night----tossing and turning and all. But guess what ? I got a really good nights sleep. I won't see my little fake for a month or two, but I'm ok with that---gives me something to look forward to !

Good to know your integrity is only worth $45. Seriously, why not save the money up and buy the real deal rather than support theft? If you can't save $45 up then I would think you should not be buying knives anyway but rather be reevaluating your other life choices.

 

[PURPLEDC]

Good to know your integrity is only worth $45. Seriously, why not save the money up and buy the real deal rather than support theft? If you can't save $45 up then I would think you should not be buying knives anyway but rather be reevaluating your other life choices.

I understand that you feel this way. But I cant help but feel that china comes under more scrutiny for counterfeiting than any other region. I mean when Microtech ripped off the 0777 there was no end to the excuses that were put out there as to why it was either justified or (in even more unbelievable posts) people actually said they didnt see the resemblance. But that wasnt the first nor will it be the last time microtech stole a design. Then there is shirogorov. They as far as I know never got permission to use the axis lock. But no one really cried over that. But when Saremnu did? oh my god stand back. It just seems to me that this integrity ethics and moral standards argument only applies to knives made in parts of asia which I simply dont feel is fair. And to be fair to the person you feel has no integrity it very well may not have anything to do with the ability to save $50 but rather him feeling the Izula not being worth that much money to begin with and it being a refusal to pay the asking price. Of which that I understand. Regardless, in your eyes do those who purchase knives from microtech and shirogorov also lack integrity? And honestly anyone who supports mick strider? I mean how much lower than lying about your service history can you go? Sure that caused some waves but you would never hear anyone saying someone lacked integrity because they supported mick and his company despite his past.

 

[craytab]

I understand that you feel this way. But I cant help but feel that china comes under more scrutiny for counterfeiting than any other region. I mean when Microtech ripped off the 0777 there was no end to the excuses that were put out there as to why it was either justified or (in even more unbelievable posts) people actually said they didnt see the resemblance. But that wasnt the first nor will it be the last time microtech stole a design. Then there is shirogorov. They as far as I know never got permission to use the axis lock. But no one really cried over that. But when Saremnu did? oh my god stand back. It just seems to me that this integrity ethics and moral standards argument only applies to knives made in parts of asia which I simply dont feel is fair. And to be fair to the person you feel has no integrity it very well may not have anything to do with the ability to save $50 but rather him feeling the Izula not being worth that much money to begin with and it being a refusal to pay the asking price. Of which that I understand. Regardless, in your eyes do those who purchase knives from microtech and shirogorov also lack integrity? And honestly anyone who supports mick strider? I mean how much lower than lying about your service history can you go? Sure that caused some waves but you would never hear anyone saying someone lacked integrity because they supported mick and his company despite his past.

First, I wasn't around for all that other stuff. I did not know of the Shirogrov thing. I am aware of the Microtech thing and the Strider thing. The strider things comes up every once in a while. There are several reasons I won't buy a strider and what you mention is one of them. Same thing with Microtech. I won't buy a Microtech for several reasons, one of which is the 777 incident.

Second, when we are talking about an American Company like Microtech, there is recourse for ZT should they choose to take it to the courts. Not so much with foreign companies. Again, I won't support Microtech because of what they did either way but there is at least some recourse there.

Third, the Chinese Esees I looked at were not homage, or clone items (though some or clones, IE same design just different branding), the ones I looked at where Counterfeits which is the worst type of "copying designs". This is supporting theft. Those who do it knowingly have zero integrity in my mind. And to use your second post here to say you are not as upset as you thought you would be when ripping off an American company? Well, that speaks volumes.

Fourth, I believe Chinese companies to be the main offender in this whole counterfeit, homage, clone debate and to think otherwise would be naive. I mean, how many of those 777 clones or those Shirogorov were sold in comparison to all the counterfeits coming from Chinese companies? I but it is so tiny in comparison that it would be insignificant. I know lots of folks like to through around nationalism or out right racism when this debate about Chinese companies making counterfeits comes up. I am not saying that is what you are doing but a lesser person would take it that further step. This has nothing to do with that for me. I own several Chinese made knives that are great. I own a tone of Taiwanese and Japanese knives that are great. This has nothing to do with where a knife comes from for me. It has everything to do with the fact that the companies most involved in these practices reside in China. Nothing more. Show me more Counterfeits coming from elsewhere and I will degrade them just the same.

 

[PURPLEDC]

First, I wasn't around for all that other stuff. I did not know of the Shirogrov thing. I am aware of the Microtech thing and the Strider thing. The strider things comes up every once in a while. There are several reasons I won't buy a strider and what you mention is one of them. Same thing with Microtech. I won't buy a Microtech for several reasons, one of which is the 777 incident.

Second, when we are talking about an American Company like Microtech, there is recourse for ZT should they choose to take it to the courts. Not so much with foreign companies. Again, I won't support Microtech because of what they did either way but there is at least some recourse there.

Third, the Chinese Esees I looked at were not homage, or clone items (though some or clones, IE same design just different branding), the ones I looked at where Counterfeits which is the worst type of "copying designs". This is supporting theft. Those who do it knowingly have zero integrity in my mind. And to use your second post here to say you are not as upset as you thought you would be when ripping off an American company? Well, that speaks volumes.

Fourth, I believe Chinese companies to be the main offender in this whole counterfeit, homage, clone debate and to think otherwise would be naive. I mean, how many of those 777 clones or those Shirogorov were sold in comparison to all the counterfeits coming from Chinese companies? I but it is so tiny in comparison that it would be insignificant. I know lots of folks like to through around nationalism or out right racism when this debate about Chinese companies making counterfeits comes up. I am not saying that is what you are doing but a lesser person would take it that further step. This has nothing to do with that for me. I own several Chinese made knives that are great. I own a tone of Taiwanese and Japanese knives that are great. This has nothing to do with where a knife comes from for me. It has everything to do with the fact that the companies most involved in these practices reside in China. Nothing more. Show me more Counterfeits coming from elsewhere and I will degrade them just the same.

Oh no worries, I fully understand and agree that china is the biggest player when considering counterfeit knives and IP theft. But I still think that if we are going to say that the IP theft is the problem then it shouldnt matter how much volume any of the players are putting out and they should all be treated equally. This is sorta why I have no sympathy for companies crying counterfeit if it comes to be known they in fact have done the same thing but just on a smaller scale.

 

[craytab]

Oh no worries, I fully understand and agree that china is the biggest player when considering counterfeit knives and IP theft. But I still think that if we are going to say that the IP theft is the problem then it shouldnt matter how much volume any of the players are putting out and they should all be treated equally. This is sorta why I have no sympathy for companies crying counterfeit if it comes to be known they in fact have done the same thing but just on a smaller scale.

Holy crap we agree!

And just like this thread illustrates, the level of IP theft is subjective to each individual. Some are super egregious like the Microtech 777 and some aren't like all the knives that look like a Buck 110. Counterfeit is cut and dry though.

 

[bld522]

Counterfeit is cut and dry though.

Yep. And just like drugs and prostitution, it's here to stay.

I watched a National Geographic special last night on Counterfeiting. It confirmed my suspicion that most counterfeits are bought on purpose. It's also estimated to be a $500B (that's billion with "B") worldwide operation. Good luck trying to stop that. The show featured efforts by authorities to try to slow it down. Reminded me of a story a read once about a guy named Hans Brinker.

 

[craytab]

Yep. And just like drugs and prostitution, it's here to stay.

Oh, you can come up with better examples! Those two things are legal in certain areas and circumstances. What about murder and assault.

 

[bld522]

Oh, you can come up with better examples! Those two things are legal in certain areas and circumstances. What about murder and assault.

Enjoy tilting at windmills, do you?

 

[B34NS]

Yep. And just like drugs and prostitution, it's here to stay.

I watched a National Geographic special last night on Counterfeiting. It confirmed my suspicion that most counterfeits are bought on purpose. It's also estimated to be a $500B (that's billion with "B") worldwide operation. Good luck trying to stop that. The show featured efforts by authorities to try to slow it down. Reminded me of a story a read once about a guy named Hans Brinker.

I generally have an aversion to "vote with your wallet" conversations. Although in this instance, if the market doesn't care that designs are being ripped off and injected into the market, than it's fair to assume the market is okay with buying counterfiet. The reality is that this is not the case, you drop what you do for the maker's work. Not just the design, but the business model itself is what you're supporting, not just the inanimate objects they make.

 

[bld522]

I generally have an aversion to "vote with your wallet" conversations. Although in this instance, if the market doesn't care that designs are being ripped off and injected into the market, than it's fair to assume the market is okay with buying counterfeit. The reality is that this is not the case, you drop what you do for the maker's work. Not just the design, but the business model itself is what you're supporting, not just the inanimate objects they make.

It's not the market that doesn't care whether designs are being ripped off, it's the people who buy counterfeits that are the problem. Counterfeiting provides people without the actual means to project a successful image the artificial means to do so. And while Andre Agassi got berated for saying it during a TV commercial, he was absolutely right . . . image really IS everything. If it weren't, counterfeiting would have died out long ago.

 

[RX-79G]

It's not the market that doesn't care whether designs are being ripped off, it's the people who buy counterfeits that are the problem. Counterfeiting provides people without the actual means to project a successful image the artificial means to do so. And while Andre Agassi got berated for saying it during a TV commercial, he was absolutely right . . . image really IS everything. If it weren't, counterfeiting would have died out long ago.

Not necessarily. If you love the Sebenza, but can't afford a $400 knife, buying a counterfeit gets you the knife you want without the price. That has nothing to do with image.

Part of the problem is luxury pricing. CRK's pricing isn't based on production costs, which is why the counterfeiters can sell something so similar for 1/8 the price. No one would buy counterfeit Sebenzas if the fakes were $350.

Luxury price structures almost guarantee counterfeiting because of the massive price gap.

 

[bhyde]

Not necessarily. If you love the Sebenza, but can't afford a $400 knife, buying a counterfeit gets you the knife you want without the price. That has nothing to do with image.

Part of the problem is luxury pricing. CRK's pricing isn't based on production costs, which is why the counterfeiters can sell something so similar for 1/8 the price. No one would buy counterfeit Sebenzas if the fakes were $350.

Luxury price structures almost guarantee counterfeiting because of the massive price gap.

Where do you come up with this crap?

Let me ask you a question.. Do you think that the products being produced in China have the same rules, regulations and controls of the US, especially pertaining to environmental standards?

Everyone wants to know why things cost the way that they do, but every one of us wants to be paid a higher price for the time we sell to employers or startup in a business. It's much easier to throw away the labor efforts, skill and investment of others than have your own skills, efforts and investments watered down by an economy half way around the world whom aren't held to the same standards you are.

 

[PURPLEDC]

It's not the market that doesn't care whether designs are being ripped off, it's the people who buy counterfeits that are the problem. Counterfeiting provides people without the actual means to project a successful image the artificial means to do so. And while Andre Agassi got berated for saying it during a TV commercial, he was absolutely right . . . image really IS everything. If it weren't, counterfeiting would have died out long ago.

But that is not always the motivation to buy a counterfeit. for me image has nothing to do with it. If it did i wouldnt be so open about owning them. If i was. Worried about image i wouldnt want people to know. I can admit my motivation for buying them is selfish. But it has nothing to do with fooling anyone of anything including myself.