When is everyone okay with copying designs?

[craytab]

Something like the standard behind the below nonsense:

Not necessarily. If you love the Sebenza, but can't afford a $400 knife, buying a counterfeit gets you the knife you want without the price.

Really ? Is it the same knife ?

You are correct. Saying a counterfeit Sebenza is the same knife as a real Sebenza is absolute nonsense. The insult is saying a counterfeit Sebenza is the same knife as a real Sebenza.

For the naysayer(s), please see Revs post, or the CRK shop videos, or any info on CRK at all :thumbup:

 

[PURPLEDC]

It may have been asked already, I admit I have not read this entire thread as it would end up with my left eye twitching uncontrollably. Have you seen the videos of the CRK shop? He explains in some detail why the price is as high as it is. Also, for about 10-15 years the price stayed the same. He doesn't make 100 different models, everything comes from the one shop in Idaho. There is probably more hand fitting and finishing on a Sebenza than on other manufacturers products. He also pays a living wage to his employees, including health insurance, and PTO. That is not inexpensive by any standards. I'm not saying this is the be all, end all answer; but it makes more sense than the other hypothesis that have been proposed.
A BK16 might be cheaper because there are fewer tolerances involved, the steel is pretty inexpensive to begin with, heat treat requires less time, energy, and precision, grinding it can also be easier (less wear and tear on machines), etc. Again, I'm just guessing. To assume that a person like CR sets the price for what the market can handle just seems a bit too oversimplified and verging on the ignorant as so much has been published as to why things cost what they do. But, people tend to believe whatever suits their specific position and argument. Carry on.

Lets say everything in that video of Mr Reeve is correct. Do you think that he is being completely transparent? While I am willing to believe that much of what he says in the video is true I dont think most companies are completely on the level about profits and out of pocket costs. In other words if these products could be $100 cheaper I would never expect that they would openly admit it ever.

 

[bpeezer]

Lets say everything in that video of Mr Reeve is correct. Do you think that he is being completely transparent? While I am willing to believe that much of what he says in the video is true I dont think most companies are completely on the level about profits and out of pocket costs. In other words if these products could be $100 cheaper I would never expect that they would openly admit it ever.

But if they did charge $100 less, there would be no room for investment in new technology, development of new products/features, capacity expansion, windfall safety net, or a myriad of other reasons for a company to seek profit margins. Not to mention little reason to stay in business at all. I don't personally know Chris Reeve, but I'm willing to bet that his company is more than just a hobby. If he wasn't making fair profit margins, I would hazard a guess that he wouldn't stay in business too long.

 

[POCEH KOCEB]

Nonsense? Is it really so hard for people to discuss this topic without resorting to insults?
No two CRK made Sebenzas are "the same" from some perspectives. You can use that word lots of ways, and I was using it in the sense that if I handed you a real example and a good counterfeit and asked you if the knives were "the same or different", you'd likely say "the same" until shown otherwise.
If someone wants a Sebenza and has never been able buy one, the counterfeits made of D2 are so close that it is extremely difficult to tell without a real one available to compare. That's pretty darn "the same" to me.
What you seem to be reading into my post was a moral perspective that was never there in the first place. But two real Sebenza's aren't morally the same either if one was stolen and the other purchased.

It would be insult if it wasn't a fact. I understand you point about the "two Sebenzas" and I think exactly in this line. What I meant was that in the copy they don't receive the same materials and the same custom design as the one CRK will offer.
D2 steel in chinese knives is questionable, just as most of the materials used. They are few Chinese companies that make knives with proven origin of materials, I can think of Kizer, maybe Reate, you are generalizing that all Chinese counterfeits are made with D2 steel ? See, this is the nonsense, to draw general conclusion out of few exceptions.
For me this whole notion about people that cannot afford the original are buying the counterfeits just to see how they look like is just justifying the act of stealing intellectual property. I'm sure you're not for it, but in the end it sounds exactly like this...
I'm into guns and knifes for over 30 years now, I own my own business too. Not being originally american, I follow few gun/knife forums abroad, few Russian forum too. There is a constantly changing tendencies that the topic of this thread doesn't and cannot address... In the beginning Chinese copies were very inexpensive, about 10 years ago when they were sold everywhere in this country, price on the most expensive-one was about $17-$20
They were poorly made copies of successful designs, from this time I got a $12 copy of Tops CQT Magnum, that was branded under MTech, with 440 steel. It is still working knife, but overall it was very poorly made, but inexpensive.
With the time they started making knives with much better quality, I have a Bedlam copy - Ganzo 712 ( hope I remember the model number right) that was made well, very close to the original and performed well for edc but still the blade material was crap. This was the only and I believe the last knock off knife that I bought just as you said: to see how the original looks like, to get a feel of it. I simply didn't want to pay the money the original Bedlam cost at this time.
Again, with the time those things changed too - nova-days, every one of those counterfeits is about 3-4 times the price they were about 5-6 years ago but the materials didn't change, only the quality of manufacturing.
What I see from some of the other knife-nuts forums I follow is that right now, the price factor isn't the leading one, for purchasing counterfeits, it's the quality of craftsmanship. Again, this is IMO, I don't want to make general rule as some of you guys... People are putting side by side chinese made counterfeit and the original and they compare pretty much everything you can think about, steel, craftsmanship, materials, design if you want, because Chinese copies do have small diferences in the design.
There is a Russian study about the steels, they actually tested most of the popular Chinese knock-offs and tell you which one is D2 or something else and which one is not.
I personally compared few Rat knives, originals vs knockoffs and have opinion on those too. The latest (from last week) comparison that I read was between the Decepticon and the Wild Boar copy of the same knife they made, there are serious differences, if you are much into knifes, at least me, I would never spend couple hundred bucks for knockoff... I can show you the thread and pictures if you are interested, it's not only this knife there, but the point I want to make is this, and again, no offence here, nothing personal:
Most of you that stay behind the idea that people are buying those copies because they cannot afford the original are not correct, at least not today. This is the moral excuse that these people have to say: "...screw those Americans and their fat-cat companies, I'm not going to pay $400 for Sebenza if I can buy better ( in their opinion) quality knife from Wild Boar for less than half the price..."
This is what I see as tendency in the last few years, exactly where the Chinese knockoffs target market is - Eastern Europe, Russia ( huge market) and few other places.
Coming from all those comparisons I see popping up here and there, outside of the US, in places where those knock offs are popular, I'm telling you - you are not correct.
One thing should be completely clear: Chinese are in the business of stealing designs not because of the philanthropic notion to make them more accessible to the "poor", they are in for the profit.
If you look at the pattern they show, from the very beginning, they created their markets with the cheap copies, then they cut the huge crappy variety and concentrated on less, better made, copies of successful models.
Today they are moving to legitimizing few companies, with whatever will go for their own designs ( there are bunch of examples here, "heavily influenced" , for my DC friend... ) and along this process they are starting to produce more and more non-US designers copies, as Shorogorov i.e.
Most of the Russian companies, as the one that produces the Desepticon, are manufacturing their knives in China, so without going in details, bottom line is they don't object much when they are copied, they just profit from higher price and selling a legitimate product here, in US market, vs Chinese knockoffs being sold exactly the same way - value vs volume profit, in their original target markets.
In this particular case, the profit comes from your believe in buying legitimate product, in Chinese knockoffs - from already created markets, from difference in moral values - well, I'm not rich enough to pay $1300 for this Decepticon, let me get a feel for it for $230 with this great, well made Chinese copy...
After all it is geo-political issue, Chinese companies did understand it long time ago and they structured their business plan accordingly, so right now their selling point relies on continuing ignoring the moral part, the act of stealing the design, and concentrating on the craftsmanship and less but not fair price, nothing else.
People that are buying those have hard time to shell out almost 3-4 times the actual manufacturing plus some profit price of this product, but they are doing it sold on the notion of purchasing better quality than the original design. In some way it's a brainwash, well developed market.
So when I call your opinion "nonsense" insulting you is the last thing I want to do, it's just not the observation I have from being long enough in the forums where the majority of people are purchasing knockoffs, for me it's a fact, they perfectly understand that the materials are crappy and that they will not get the feel of the original, in most cases they did try the originals before purchasing the copies. They buy the copy because (1) they like the design and because (2) is cheap, that's it.
IMO, sadly, It's a case of different moral values and standard of living, that's it. Opinion as yours were actual long time ago, today, they are just a justification of ignoring the fact that those copies are stolen designs. Most people I know in this country will not purchase such product, few that I know over there - will. I'm not judging, I think I'm only registering the fact, sorry for the long post.

 

[JR88FAN]

Lets say everything in that video of Mr Reeve is correct. Do you think that he is being completely transparent? While I am willing to believe that much of what he says in the video is true I dont think most companies are completely on the level about profits and out of pocket costs. In other words if these products could be $100 cheaper I would never expect that they would openly admit it ever.

Couldn't agree more. I can't imagine a company that would give you full transparency of the actual exact production cost of something that is a non-essential consumer item.

It's great to see the process, and some of the costs involved, but I have very little doubt that the CRK profit margin is at least 50% if not more per knife....Much higher for the Seb's with 'designs' or inlays.

Nothing wrong with that. Solid product, Chris is an innovator, and the final value of anything is what people are willing to pay.

 

[RX-79G]

It would be insult if it wasn't a fact. I understand you point about the "two Sebenzas" and I think exactly in this line. What I meant was that in the copy they don't receive the same materials and the same custom design as the one CRK will offer.
D2 steel in chinese knives is questionable, just as most of the materials used. They are few Chinese companies that make knives with proven origin of materials, I can think of Kizer, maybe Reate, you are generalizing that all Chinese counterfeits are made with D2 steel ? See, this is the nonsense, to draw general conclusion out of few exceptions.

I get your passion, but I think we're all beyond believing that Chinese knife makers aren't able to heat treat a piece of steel properly.

It's actually a little absurd to insist that the shops making these particular fakes are able to produce the precision necessary to make the Sebenza design work, but can't get a blade hard. Chinese = crap is a lie we tell each other to discourage buying counterfeits, not a statement of fact.

In all likelihood, the Chinese shop that is producing the rather astounding $120 Boker Federal is one of the ones popping out these very close Sebenza copies.


A D2 Sebenza-like knife is definitely not the same as an S35V real Sebenza. Of course, a 15 year old ATS-34 real Sebenza is not the same as an S35V Sebenza, either. The question is only whether a sharp D2 blade mounted in correctly functioning titanium frame lock is Sebenza enough to satisfy the discount buyer looking for a functional replacement. From the reviews I've read, many of these are completely functional - not just replicas made of soft steel.

Until we wake up to the fact that counterfeits aren't always pot metal imitations but can be high quality in their own right, we're just sticking our heads in the sand and lying to ourselves. Counterfeit is always illegal, but it isn't always low quality.


I sincerely wish the Chinese folks doing this sort of work would apply it to a non-Sebenza shape and markings. I would love to buy a D2 steel titanium frame lock for under $100. And I think that's the way many people buying the fakes see this - as a nice knife, not a fake to bolster their image.

 

[RX-79G]

You are correct. Saying a counterfeit Sebenza is the same knife as a real Sebenza is absolute nonsense. The insult is saying a counterfeit Sebenza is the same knife as a real Sebenza.

For the naysayer(s), please see Revs post, or the CRK shop videos, or any info on CRK at all :thumbup:

Which is just mis-characterizing what I said.

 

[PURPLEDC]

But if they did charge $100 less, there would be no room for investment in new technology, development of new products/features, capacity expansion, windfall safety net, or a myriad of other reasons for a company to seek profit margins. Not to mention little reason to stay in business at all. I don't personally know Chris Reeve, but I'm willing to bet that his company is more than just a hobby. If he wasn't making fair profit margins, I would hazard a guess that he wouldn't stay in business too long.

Thats not at all what i said. You seem to be presuming to have inside knowledge of the company if you in fact can say that if they lowered the price that it would cut into other avenues of their business. I honestly dont think anyone here has that knowledge and any speculation is just that, speculation.

What i did say however is that IF (again, IF) theoretically crk or any other company for that matter could cut profits without any ill effects except the extra cushioning to their paycheck i dont expect that they would make that public knowledge and they shouldnt have to. I am simply saying that just because a video comes out and everything in that video might be true it doesnt mean you were given the whole truth. I have no doubt that CRK products are more costly given the fit finish and tolerances. But i think people are a bit naive if they think that there is no premium being paid for the name alone.

 

[JR88FAN]

I get your passion, but I think we're all beyond believing that Chinese knife makers aren't able to heat treat a piece of steel properly.

It's actually a little absurd to insist that the shops making these particular fakes are able to produce the precision necessary to make the Sebenza design work, but can't get a blade hard. Chinese = crap is a lie we tell each other to discourage buying counterfeits, not a statement of fact.

In all likelihood, the Chinese shop that is producing the rather astounding $120 Boker Federal is one of the ones popping out these very close Sebenza copies.


A D2 Sebenza-like knife is definitely not the same as an S35V real Sebenza. Of course, a 15 year old ATS-34 real Sebenza is not the same as an S35V Sebenza, either. The question is only whether a sharp D2 blade mounted in correctly functioning titanium frame lock is Sebenza enough to satisfy the discount buyer looking for a functional replacement. From the reviews I've read, many of these are completely functional - not just replicas made of soft steel.

Until we wake up to the fact that counterfeits aren't always pot metal imitations but can be high quality in their own right, we're just sticking our heads in the sand and lying to ourselves. Counterfeit is always illegal, but it isn't always low quality.


I sincerely wish the Chinese folks doing this sort of work would apply it to a non-Sebenza shape and markings. I would love to buy a D2 steel titanium frame lock for under $100. And I think that's the way many people buying the fakes see this - as a nice knife, not a fake to bolster their image.

How do Kizer and Reate fit into this conversation?

They are 'higher end' knives, Chinese made and designed, that demand quite a premium price for some models (more so Reate)

What are your thoughts?

There is not much transparency when it comes to these companies. When I read the Reate 'bio' I kinda just shake my head.....

However, they are selling and proving that we are very open to higher priced Chinese knives that are not clones/fakes.

 

[PURPLEDC]

I get your passion, but I think we're all beyond believing that Chinese knife makers aren't able to heat treat a piece of steel properly.

It's actually a little absurd to insist that the shops making these particular fakes are able to produce the precision necessary to make the Sebenza design work, but can't get a blade hard. Chinese = crap is a lie we tell each other to discourage buying counterfeits, not a statement of fact.

In all likelihood, the Chinese shop that is producing the rather astounding $120 Boker Federal is one of the ones popping out these very close Sebenza copies.


A D2 Sebenza-like knife is definitely not the same as an S35V real Sebenza. Of course, a 15 year old ATS-34 real Sebenza is not the same as an S35V Sebenza, either. The question is only whether a sharp D2 blade mounted in correctly functioning titanium frame lock is Sebenza enough to satisfy the discount buyer looking for a functional replacement. From the reviews I've read, many of these are completely functional - not just replicas made of soft steel.

Until we wake up to the fact that counterfeits aren't always pot metal imitations but can be high quality in their own right, we're just sticking our heads in the sand and lying to ourselves. Counterfeit is always illegal, but it isn't always low quality.




I sincerely wish the Chinese folks doing this sort of work would apply it to a non-Sebenza shape and markings. I would love to buy a D2 steel titanium frame lock for under $100. And I think that's the way many people buying the fakes see this - as a nice knife, not a fake to bolster their image.

thank you. Its rare that i see true honesty these days in relation to this subject. It gets tiresome wading through what seems like mostly gut reactions based on emotions rather than any real evidence. Most of the rumors about poor chinese quality are same rumors being regurgitated since the internet was born. Most so called "facts" i have found to be nothing more than propaganda spoken by those with invested interest in supressing such goods and people simply repeat what they have read without doing any research themselves. I cannot say for certain that all of my knives are made out of what they claim to be made out of. But i can say none of my knives have given cause to think otherwise. In fact my usa made knives consistantly let me down where most chinese knives leave me smiling. And that right there is why i buy what i buy. I enjoy the hobby now. When before buying high dollar knives i wasnt. And that is all that matters to me. Yes its selfish. But my hobbies are for my enjoyment so for me its a given. I dont expect people to like it. But I am not going to lie about it. Gotta draw the line somewhere right?

How do Kizer and Reate fit into this conversation?

They are 'higher end' knives, Chinese made and designed, that demand quite a premium price for some models (more so Reate)

What are your thoughts?

There is not much transparency when it comes to these companies. When I read the Reate 'bio' I kinda just shake my head.....

However, they are selling and proving that we are very open to higher priced Chinese knives that are not clones/fakes.

I know you didnt ask me but i know a bit about this so i figured i would share it. I am sure you know its believed by some that some of these companies are in fact the same people responsible for the counterfeits. While i cant say for sure this is true i can say with confidence that it is likely. And at the very least these companies are sharing parts suppliers. If i open my adai flipper and tear down my reate horizon the internal parts are identical. Same bearings, same hardened plates for the bearings. Even the races milled into the blades have the same tooling marks. The parts are fully interchangeable. All of this from two knives that the makers claim they have nothing to do with each other. But if they are made by the same people it kinda kills the idea that counterfeiters arent importing high end materials as crucible has all ready confirmed steel orders placed by at least one of those makers i cant remember which.

 

[POCEH KOCEB]

I get your passion, but I think we're all beyond believing that Chinese knife makers aren't able to heat treat a piece of steel properly.

It's actually a little absurd to insist that the shops making these particular fakes are able to produce the precision necessary to make the Sebenza design work, but can't get a blade hard. Chinese = crap is a lie we tell each other to discourage buying counterfeits, not a statement of fact....Until we wake up to the fact that counterfeits aren't always pot metal imitations but can be high quality in their own right, we're just sticking our heads in the sand and lying to ourselves. Counterfeit is always illegal, but it isn't always low quality.


I sincerely wish the Chinese folks doing this sort of work would apply it to a non-Sebenza shape and markings. I would love to buy a D2 steel titanium frame lock for under $100. And I think that's the way many people buying the fakes see this - as a nice knife, not a fake to bolster their image.

There is no passion, there is no involvment or anything. I'm curious to talk about it with people that are some how far from the reality with the Chinese knock offs, that's it. As I said - they stay away from naturally desired US market because they started in a wrong foot with low quality, blatant copies of well known models and most of the buyers here alredy look at them the way they are - thiefs . Good ( because they are of course such) Chinese companies suffer from this but the situation is what it is... Their startegy evolved and they are trying to hit this market now, but other than this, they are well present in other big markets and they are working hard to produce something on their own so they can come clean here, where they can make more money...That's why the mantality you are exibiting works so well for their goal, people are ignoring the fact that they are steeling the designs they sell the most, only where they sell them the most, people don't care about it, this is my point.

Who said that they are not a high quality imitations ? Not me. I was only talking in general, about most of the $60-$160 price range blades, huge number of those blades are simply 8Cr13, they are far from D2 and there is no way you'd know if this is really D2 or something else unless you do what Russians did and examine those steels. I'll find the chart and I'll post it for you if you wish, regardless what you find to be absurd, the numbers speak for themselves.
Most of them also don't have any consistency in the heat treatment. I've seen a Rat1 copy ( Chinese Rat3) that is measured 42-46 HRC, how's this for great copy work ?

Nobody's talking about that they cannot do well heat treatment or manufacture copies with precision, this is leading the conversation in different direction, after all, the machines they are doing it are the same western companies gave them to manufacture their products, it's not Chinese know-how. Forget Sebenza, this is not really hard to copy knife, perfect example is the mentioned before Decepticon copy - those original knives, their parts are made in China, they are assembled in Russia and I have no reason not to believe this statement. The Wild Boar copy of the Decepticon have different hardware, in particular - screws and ball bearings, different finish and different geometry, also different size, not to mention the fact that on the Chinese site you can purchase this thing for $118 with free shipping, but the title of the ad reads " Wild Boar Version ALEXEY KONYGIN Transformers Decepticon 1 Folding Flipper Bearings Knives D2 Blade Titanium Handle with Gift " where in the specs section says "... Blade material: Stainless Steel..." ?!? Which one of those statements would you recommend to believe ?
On top of everything there is a warning that they are copies of this copy, made of steel and not of titanium... So they are in competition copying themselves... ?
There are also reports that the metal insert of the liner lock is not even heat treated, they get all peened from hitting the lock face of the blade, these are the high quality Chinese knifes we're praising here ?
This is visually the same knife, but in reality you are receiving a knife with unknown steel for blade and cheap hardware, for a price that should be half of what they're asking for.

Regardless, people are buying it because is still cheaper that the $1300 original ( another story why a knife manufactured in China and put together in the designer's country have to be $1300 ) and because they like the design.
I don't care about ti, all I care is to call the things with their real names, stealing design is theft any way you looking at it and any way you are trying to justify it.

In this line would you explain to me how exactly a counterfeit will have it's own right ?

 

[RX-79G]

How do Kizer and Reate fit into this conversation?

They are 'higher end' knives, Chinese made and designed, that demand quite a premium price for some models (more so Reate)

What are your thoughts?

There is not much transparency when it comes to these companies. When I read the Reate 'bio' I kinda just shake my head.....

However, they are selling and proving that we are very open to higher priced Chinese knives that are not clones/fakes.

I think you'd have to be a fool to purchase an outsourced product for premium domestic prices. The whole point of going to Asian production is to lower costs. If you pay CRK prices for Chinese production, you are purposely choosing to make a very small number of people rich with a crazy profit margin, rather than supporting the economy of your own (faltering) country. As a consumer, you end up at a deficit because you paid a premium for something we all consider less premium - third world production and you screwed your homeland in the process.

If you're going to buy Chinese knives, buy something like an excellent $10 Sanrenmu 704 or a $120 titanium and 440C BokerPlus Federal GTC and at least feel good about being a savvy consumer - because no US company could make those knives for those prices. And the designers of both knives aren't being stolen from in the slightest.

 

[RX-79G]

In this line would you explain to me how exactly a counterfeit will have it's own right ?

I don't know what this means.

Replying to the rest of your post:
Simply put, there's a lot of trash coming out of China. Some of it designed and sold by western companies. Some of it is generic and some of it is counterfeit.

There is also a lot of top end, excellent stuff coming out of China. Some of it is like the Boker Plus Federal, some of it is Chinese branded (Sanrenmu) and some of it is counterfeit.

With a manufacturing base as large as China's there is more than enough room for production in all six of the above categories. If you are saying it is hard to tell from a website if a counterfeit is good or bad quality - I agree. However, Aliexpress/Alibaba - the world's largest ecommerce site - does have a review and rating system just like Amazon's. So even the quality counterfeiters do have reputations for their work.

I think your chances of buying junk from Gerber is actually a little higher than a well researched piece of counterfeit from Alibaba. I think that one of the main problems is that the Chinese (and possibly Asians more generally) do not see counterfeit and intellectual property in the same way individualistic Westerners do. The whole "not invented here" mindset doesn't seem to be a factor among people so willing to adopt other people's good ideas.


When the first Japanese people were shown a western matchlock musket from Portugal in the 14th century, one of their swordsmiths had duplicated the barrel and trigger mechanism in a few months, and Western quality matchlocks were used in battle just 2 years later. That willingness to look at foreign technology and make it their own is something Westerners have trouble with.

 

[PURPLEDC]

There is no passion, there is no involvment or anything. I'm curious to talk about it with people that are some how far from the reality with the Chinese knock offs, that's it. As I said - they stay away from naturally desired US market because they started in a wrong foot with low quality, blatant copies of well known models and most of the buyers here alredy look at them the way they are - thiefs . Good ( because they are of course such) Chinese companies suffer from this but the situation is what it is... Their startegy evolved and they are trying to hit this market now, but other than this, they are well present in other big markets and they are working hard to produce something on their own so they can come clean here, where they can make more money...That's why the mantality you are exibiting works so well for their goal, people are ignoring the fact that they are steeling the designs they sell the most, only where they sell them the most, people don't care about it, this is my point.

Who said that they are not a high quality imitations ? Not me. I was only talking in general, about most of the $60-$160 price range blades, huge number of those blades are simply 8Cr13, they are far from D2 and there is no way you'd know if this is really D2 or something else unless you do what Russians did and examine those steels. I'll find the chart and I'll post it for you if you wish, regardless what you find to be absurd, the numbers speak for themselves.
Most of them also don't have any consistency in the heat treatment. I've seen a Rat1 copy ( Chinese Rat3) that is measured 42-46 HRC, how's this for great copy work ?

Nobody's talking about that they cannot do well heat treatment or manufacture copies with precision, this is leading the conversation in different direction, after all, the machines they are doing it are the same western companies gave them to manufacture their products, it's not Chinese know-how. Forget Sebenza, this is not really hard to copy knife, perfect example is the mentioned before Decepticon copy - those original knives, their parts are made in China, they are assembled in Russia and I have no reason not to believe this statement. The Wild Boar copy of the Decepticon have different hardware, in particular - screws and ball bearings, different finish and different geometry, also different size, not to mention the fact that on the Chinese site you can purchase this thing for $118 with free shipping, but the title of the ad reads " Wild Boar Version ALEXEY KONYGIN Transformers Decepticon 1 Folding Flipper Bearings Knives D2 Blade Titanium Handle with Gift " where in the specs section says "... Blade material: Stainless Steel..." ?!? Which one of those statements would you recommend to believe ?
On top of everything there is a warning that they are copies of this copy, made of steel and not of titanium... So they are in competition copying themselves... ?
There are also reports that the metal insert of the liner lock is not even heat treated, they get all peened from hitting the lock face of the blade, these are the high quality Chinese knifes we're praising here ?
This is visually the same knife, but in reality you are receiving a knife with unknown steel for blade and cheap hardware, for a price that should be half of what they're asking for.

Regardless, people are buying it because is still cheaper that the $1300 original ( another story why a knife manufactured in China and put together in the designer's country have to be $1300 ) and because they like the design.
I don't care about ti, all I care is to call the things with their real names, stealing design is theft any way you looking at it and any way you are trying to justify it.

In this line would you explain to me how exactly a counterfeit will have it's own right ?

I find many of your posts incredibly inconsistent. You seem to hate copies yet you admit to owning them. Then you say that the chinese clones are not made of the materials they claim yet you provide nothing in the way of evidence except to say random people on another forum in a language most of us dont speak said so. You say that many of the chinese clones are well made when in the $60 - $120 range yet when you speak to their inability to heat treat your only example is of a clone of a $25 knife? You are making very general blanket statements for products that are just as diverse as our own. The heat treat of a cheap
Rat1 clone has about as much to do with the higher end clones as the heat treat of a todd begg bodega has with a bear mgc. And what applies to that one knife doesnt apply to all. You really think the heat treat on a clone of a knife that all ready sells for $25 is going to be on the same level as knives costing five times that?

And you have rambled a lot of what you perceive as fact about the motives of those making these knives and how they conduct their business, right down to how and who they got their machinery from. So i ask you besides simply parroting things you read on other forums or maybe even this one and taking it on faith, can you show any documentation or hard evidence to back it? Because so far all i have read is a very long explanation of your opinion with not so much as a hint of credible fact to support it. Right now you have provided your hunch. Not a fact, not a theory or even an educated guess. A hunch. You are trying to explain to people how a certain puzzle is to be assembled while you yourself are missing many of the pieces. Pieces that are all but impossible to have unless you know some people responsible for the knives we are discussing.

 

[POCEH KOCEB]

I don't know what this means.

Replying to the rest of your post:
Simply put, there's a lot of trash coming out of China. Some of it designed and sold by western companies. Some of it is generic and some of it is counterfeit.

There is also a lot of top end, excellent stuff coming out of China. Some of it is like the Boker Plus Federal, some of it is Chinese branded (Sanrenmu) and some of it is counterfeit.

With a manufacturing base as large as China's there is more than enough room for production in all six of the above categories. If you are saying it is hard to tell from a website if a counterfeit is good or bad quality - I agree. However, Aliexpress/Alibaba - the world's largest ecommerce site - does have a review and rating system just like Amazon's. So even the quality counterfeiters do have reputations for their work...

Did you actually purchase something from Aliexpress ? I did. I did it initially to try the products (including knives) I was interested of, and because they were cheap. They are not cheap anymore and the quality is still the same - mediocre and non-consistent.
It's a lottery - sometimes you win, sometimes you loose... Did you see the reviews ? The vast majority of them are from Russia and the US opinions are microscopic part of them, in most cases obviously fake.
Not like there is something wrong with it (majority of the feedback to be Russian and EU), but this is their primary market, not US, for reasons I've already explained, the way I see it from the contact I have with people using, buying and reviewing those counterfeits.

I don't understand why you keep bringing up the US companies, manufacturing knives in China ? Their quality is also mediocre, the steel is also with inconsistent heat treatment ( talking from personal experience) and that's why they are not in the top shelf category knives, they are sub $100-$60 bucks models from various manufacturers. In general those are not the models they copy. The Chinese are making those by the US specs, not because they cannot make it better, I'm not talking about this, I'm talking about the notion that stealing should be justified, something like this:

....Until we wake up to the fact that counterfeits ... can be high quality in their own right...

US companies started making inexpensive Chinese manufacturing knives so they can keep the cost down, make some US profit from those models and counter stealling those models from Chines. Perfect example is the collaboration of Emerson with Kershaw - do you see those models being reproduced by Wild Boar and KJ ? No. Why ? because the profit margin is low and even the abroad customers will prefer to buy the original instead save $5 with the counterfeit purchase, this is it... If the price is low, people will buy the originals. Going for expensive copies is possible only where the moral values are justifying stealing of the original design and the price factor is second. This was my point.

I know that counterfeits can be of high quality, I'm not opposing it even we can argue a lot what it means to be of "high quality" ... Did you ever tried to disassemble one of those "high quality" knives ?
I did. There is nothing even close to the "high quality" in 90% of those I touched... crappy screws, turning standoffs, thicker washers on one site so the blade would be some how centered, I can go on and on, do you have any observations on the subject you're talking about ? let's make it simple, give me you example of a particular Chinese knockoff that illustrates your point ? Yes, originals made in China for $30 have similar problems but that's why they are $30 isn't it ?

Sanremu makes copies of US models, we don't have to full ourselves, they don't have their own design, everything is direct copy or "highly influenced"... I love this phrase...

 

[POCEH KOCEB]

I find many of your posts incredibly inconsistent. You seem to hat copys yet you admit to owning them. Then you say that the chinese clones are not made of the materials they claim yet you provide nothing in the way of evidence except to say random people on another forum in a language most of us dont speak said so...You are trying to explain to people how a certain puzzle is to be assembled while you yourself are missing many of the pieces. Pieces that are all but impossible to have unless you know some people responsible for the knives we are discussing.

From my previous contacts with you all I can say is: learn different languages and go read some forums other than this. I don't have to prove anything to anybody, because anybody is proving anything here, all of the arguments I'm seeing are guesses and hunches... Ryan Seacrest makes more sense tonight for me than you. If I don't produce any evidence for what I'm talking about it'll be very easy for you to counter my statements - just show me a high grade Chinese copy that offers consistent quality of the manufacturing and blade steel. And than explain to me why is this so important when we are talking about giving money to thieves ?

 

[RX-79G]

Did you actually purchase something from Aliexpress ? I did. I did it initially to try the products (including knives) I was interested of, and because they were cheap. They are not cheap anymore and the quality is still the same - mediocre and non-consistent.
It's a lottery - sometimes you win, sometimes you loose... Did you see the reviews ? The vast majority of them are from Russia and the US opinions are microscopic part of them, in most cases obviously fake.
Not like there is something wrong with it (majority of the feedback to be Russian and EU), but this is their primary market, not US, for reasons I've already explained, the way I see it from the contact I have with people using, buying and reviewing those counterfeits.

I don't understand why you keep bringing up the US companies, manufacturing knives in China ? Their quality is also mediocre, the steel is also with inconsistent heat treatment ( talking from personal experience) and that's why they are not in the top shelf category knives, they are sub $100-$60 bucks models from various manufacturers. In general those are not the models they copy. The Chinese are making those by the US specs, not because they cannot make it better, I'm not talking about this, I'm talking about the notion that stealing should be justified, something like this:

I absolutely did not say stealing was justified. I have repeatedly said the opposite. Admitting that something criminal is high quality is not the same as justifying the crime.

US companies started making inexpensive Chinese manufacturing knives so they can keep the cost down, make some US profit from those models and counter stealling those models from Chines. Perfect example is the collaboration of Emerson with Kershaw - do you see those models being reproduced by Wild Boar and KJ ? No. Why ? because the profit margin is low and even the abroad customers will prefer to buy the original instead save $5 with the counterfeit purchase, this is it... If the price is low, people will buy the originals. Going for expensive copies is possible only where the moral values are justifying stealing of the original design and the price factor is second. This was my point.

Actually, that was MY point - and I already made it. Only high profit margin knives are worth counterfeiting. I said that more than once, and illustrated it with the Vantage Pro vs. Paramilitary 2 examples, along with the CRK.

I know that counterfeits can be of high quality, I'm not opposing it even we can argue a lot what it means to be of "high quality" ... Did you ever tried to disassemble one of those "high quality" knives ?
I did. Their is nothing even close to the "high quality" in 90% of those I touched... crappy screws, turning standoffs, thicker washers on one site so the blade would be some how centered, I can go on and on, do you have any observations on the subject you're talking about ? let's make it simple, give me you example of a particular Chinese knockoff that illustrates your point ? Yes, originals made in China for $30 have similar problems but that's why they are $30 isn't it ?

Yes, I have. I was very impressed with how the whole thing went together.

Sanremu makes copies of US models, we don't have to full ourselves, they don't have their own design, everything is direct copy or "highly influenced"... I love this phrase...

I already posted the Sanrenmu 704 example, which is their own design. Not "highly influenced" by anything. There are many more, like the HK branded SRM I posted earlier.

I don't think there is a lot of point in having a discussion with you if you haven't read or understood any of my posts. You are practically repeating the points I have previously made, and assuming that I am a supporter of counterfeiting. Stop, go back, read.

I'm anti-counterfeiting, I agree that if you should choose to buy counterfeit you are taking a gamble on what you'll get, but I know for a fact that the quality is sometimes excellent. I disagree with you that all Western branded Chinese made knives are of lower quality, and other folks do, too.

 

[JR88FAN]

I think you'd have to be a fool to purchase an outsourced product for premium domestic prices. The whole point of going to Asian production is to lower costs. If you pay CRK prices for Chinese production, you are purposely choosing to make a very small number of people rich with a crazy profit margin, rather than supporting the economy of your own (faltering) country. As a consumer, you end up at a deficit because you paid a premium for something we all consider less premium - third world production and you screwed your homeland in the process.

If you're going to buy Chinese knives, buy something like an excellent $10 Sanrenmu 704 or a $120 titanium and 440C BokerPlus Federal GTC and at least feel good about being a savvy consumer - because no US company could make those knives for those prices. And the designers of both knives aren't being stolen from in the slightest.

I couldn't agree more.
I can't understand how a 'company' like Reate (no history) can just show up and charge $2-300.00 for a folder and everyone jumps on board?
I think that since the overall labor cost is zero compared to a knife made in the USA, or anywhere people are not horribly under paid, it should be reflected in the cost if the knife, especially when you are trying to establish trust in your brand.

I am sure that even at $100 there would be a huge margin in any Reate folder.

I think the premise here is to create the illusion of 'something special' based on price. That is done by many manufactures, but it shows huge nuts for a Chinese manufacture with zero history to come out swinging for the profit fences....

From everything I have read, they are a good knife, but at such an insane price for a company that has no past, and one we know very little about, why are they selling?

 

[JR88FAN]

thank you. Its rare that i see true honesty these days in relation to this subject. It gets tiresome wading through what seems like mostly gut reactions based on emotions rather than any real evidence. Most of the rumors about poor chinese quality are same rumors being regurgitated since the internet was born. Most so called "facts" i have found to be nothing more than propaganda spoken by those with invested interest in supressing such goods and people simply repeat what they have read without doing any research themselves. I cannot say for certain that all of my knives are made out of what they claim to be made out of. But i can say none of my knives have given cause to think otherwise. In fact my usa made knives consistantly let me down where most chinese knives leave me smiling. And that right there is why i buy what i buy. I enjoy the hobby now. When before buying high dollar knives i wasnt. And that is all that matters to me. Yes its selfish. But my hobbies are for my enjoyment so for me its a given. I dont expect people to like it. But I am not going to lie about it. Gotta draw the line somewhere right?


I know you didnt ask me but i know a bit about this so i figured i would share it. I am sure you know its believed by some that some of these companies are in fact the same people responsible for the counterfeits. While i cant say for sure this is true i can say with confidence that it is likely. And at the very least these companies are sharing parts suppliers. If i open my adai flipper and tear down my reate horizon the internal parts are identical. Same bearings, same hardened plates for the bearings. Even the races milled into the blades have the same tooling marks. The parts are fully interchangeable. All of this from two knives that the makers claim they have nothing to do with each other. But if they are made by the same people it kinda kills the idea that counterfeiters arent importing high end materials as crucible has all ready confirmed steel orders placed by at least one of those makers i cant remember which.

Your opinion is always huge on my end.
Thanks for sharing what you know.

I believe that the ability to make 'better' original knives is somehow related to these same companies being able to make very high quality clones/fakes like CRK's....
I don't for a minute doubt that some of these facilities do both.

 

[PURPLEDC]

From my previous contacts with you all I can say is: learn different languages and go read some forums other than this. I don't have to prove anything to anybody, because anybody is proving anything here, all of the arguments I'm seeing are guesses and hunches... Ryan Seacrest makes more sense tonight for me than you. If I don't produce any evidence for what I'm talking about it'll be very easy for you to counter my statements - just show me a high grade Chinese copy that offers consistent quality of the manufacturing and blade steel. And than explain to me why is this so important when we are talking about giving money to thieves ?

I didnt think so. As to your question about which companies make a consistent product of the materials they claim to use both Kevin John and the knives made by who is commonly refered to as A DAI make very consistent high quality products and both have provided proof of the materials they use. In fact one person in russia had an Adai knife tested and confirmed that they werent lying about the materials. The hardness was on the lower side but they did the test near the pivot which could be softer than the edge was. Now this doesnt account for many knives that chinese sellers CLAIM are made by kevin john or ADAI. Its generally accepted among those who buy these products that Adai and K.John offer the best replicas. And many chinese sellers will say its a kevin john or Adai knife when it is really made by Wild Boar who is not known for the quality in execution nor the materials. As to why its so important? Because those crying about honesty and integrity shouldnt be making their case with lies and assumptions.