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When is everyone okay with copying designs?
- Thread starter RX-79G
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This is a bad discussion because there are two sides to this:
1st there is the fact that we have all developed a strong passion for knives and that passion if taken to the next level into making a knife normally means we have used design elements from knives we like. Some may have even attempted to recreate our favorites, maybe found a blank drawing.
This is a very controversial area of grey. This can start as a learning process, but just know eventually the maker will find his own unique design and quality. Every craftsman wishes make their mark on their community and contribute some new and unique.
2nd there are blatant corporate copies who have seen that something is popular, they tweak something minor and then decide to provide their fan base with "their" version. Ex: the buck.
This is a hard topic. I believe in the first but for the corporate side I think large financial gains should be frowned upon. Then there is the argument that in life we are all just passing down designs and expanding on existing. That's how this community and life in general learns and evolves.
1st there is the fact that we have all developed a strong passion for knives and that passion if taken to the next level into making a knife normally means we have used design elements from knives we like. Some may have even attempted to recreate our favorites, maybe found a blank drawing.
This is a very controversial area of grey. This can start as a learning process, but just know eventually the maker will find his own unique design and quality. Every craftsman wishes make their mark on their community and contribute some new and unique.
2nd there are blatant corporate copies who have seen that something is popular, they tweak something minor and then decide to provide their fan base with "their" version. Ex: the buck.
This is a hard topic. I believe in the first but for the corporate side I think large financial gains should be frowned upon. Then there is the argument that in life we are all just passing down designs and expanding on existing. That's how this community and life in general learns and evolves.
And you don't think the widespread capitalism and opening to Western media won't help correct that? Would you prefer the Chinese remain Communist?
I'm surprised anyone deals with the US, after all the Native American genocide and whatnot.
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I think it is not OK to pass it off as something it isn't. That said, it is a lot easier to con a greedy man than one not riddled with avarice, so I suppose given the type of items we are considering it amounts to little more than an amusing first world problem. It is wrong though.
If it isn't an object portending to be something it isn't then all bets are off. As far as I am concerned the world has a long history of innovation through standing on the shoulders of giants, so have at it. Truly creative people will always create. It's not like we are going to run out of them. To whine about it stinks like when people moan about music going to the dogs because rather than generate something new artists sample other artists. Really, like there will be no new musicians. Same with knives; some makers drown and others surf. So what.
I for one think a mashup knife drawing from several other knives, like Xiaomi did with the Mi4 phone, could be fantastic. It need not necessarily be bad, like a Busse was raped by a HEST, and produced a litter of idiot things.
If it isn't an object portending to be something it isn't then all bets are off. As far as I am concerned the world has a long history of innovation through standing on the shoulders of giants, so have at it. Truly creative people will always create. It's not like we are going to run out of them. To whine about it stinks like when people moan about music going to the dogs because rather than generate something new artists sample other artists. Really, like there will be no new musicians. Same with knives; some makers drown and others surf. So what.
I for one think a mashup knife drawing from several other knives, like Xiaomi did with the Mi4 phone, could be fantastic. It need not necessarily be bad, like a Busse was raped by a HEST, and produced a litter of idiot things.
I agree, as do many I am sure. Though I doubt Chris Reeve is seeing much competition from Sanrenmu. Anyone who is seriously considering a Sebenza probably wouldn't be derailed by some ten dollar Chinese clone.
And you don't think the widespread capitalism and opening to Western media won't help correct that? Would you prefer the Chinese remain Communist?
I'm surprised anyone deals with the US, after all the Native American genocide and whatnot.
That's exactly what we thought back in the mid 90s when we gave China Most Favored Trading Country status. The plan was that if the people of China, which was until then a communist economic basket case, were able to improve their lives then a middle class would
be created which would force their one-party dictatorship to become more democratic.
Guess what? Didn't happen. The Chinese Communist Party government is as totalitarian as ever.
Sorry for the political rant but its a response to a political post so it is unavoidable.
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<getting up on soapbox>
A "clone" in biology is an exact copy, down to the DNA. The closest equivalent in the knife field would be a knife made by XYZ that was an exact copy of a knife by ABC and which has ABC's name and logo on it. This, in short, would be a forgery.
That's not happening here with SanRenMu and their 710. It is reminiscent of the Sebenza, but it is not a Sebenza, as anyone can see immediately by placing the two together, if that's even necessary.
I doubt anyone buying a SRM 710 is being tricked by evil advertising into thinking they're getting something "just as good as" a Sebenza. Similarly, I doubt anyone intending to buy a Sebenza is going to stumble across an SRM 710, look at the price, do a Home Alone face-slap, and abruptly decide not to buy the Sebenza. Because price
Seriously, how many Sebenza sales are lost to Chris Reeve thanks to the SRM 710? I'd love to see an estimate that wasn't just wildass guessery.
Every successful knife design has spawned imitators and copiers in lower price ranges and thus it always has been, since stone hand-axes were the hottest thing in cutlery. This is the nature of designs that have to make their way in the real world. Success breeds imitators, and it's not going to stop. Ever.
Two cases alone are worth talking to a patents & trademarks lawyer about:
Outright forgery, meaning a clone as defined above
The use (without paying royalties to the patent owner) of a patented feature.
But if it doesn't fall into these categories, you're raising your blood pressure for nothing.
As for buying from China, do or not as you wish and your politics dictate. But be clear, at least to yourself, why you take the stand you do.
Just to be clear, I don't like the Communist Party of China's control over the country it's both vile and doomed. Yet I know personally a number of (mainland) Chinese citizens who have told me in private why they go along, however grudgingly. First, they have no choice. But second, Chinese people want desperately to have better, more stable lives than the Chinese have had for roughly the last 200 years. For ordinary Chinese, life is lot better now than it was in their parents' and grandparents' times. Any government that keeps things improving will have their support, however qualified.
Never forget this: China has roughly 1.3 billion people. Of these, about 300 million live in or near the cities and have mostly decent lives, with reasonable expectations of it getting better. That's a population in China's cities alone that's about the size of our entire (US) population.
Now let's say you're one of those urban Chinese. You're appreciative of the improvements in your life and those of your family, as compared to what your elders went through and could tell you about only in whispers, if then. How welcoming would you be of one-man, one-vote if all 300 million of your fellow urbanites are outnumbered 3:1 by the billion rural Chinese....? So for lots of reasons, the Chinese are slow to rock the boat politically.
Wandered a long way from knives. I'll just mention that Japan used to get slammed for exactly the same thing, then it was Hong Kong, then Taiwan, and so on. It's an old story. Buy what you like, where you like. But don't jump on others who choose differently. And the moral picture, legally enforceable patent issues aside, is murkier than you think.
<steps down from soapbox>
A "clone" in biology is an exact copy, down to the DNA. The closest equivalent in the knife field would be a knife made by XYZ that was an exact copy of a knife by ABC and which has ABC's name and logo on it. This, in short, would be a forgery.
That's not happening here with SanRenMu and their 710. It is reminiscent of the Sebenza, but it is not a Sebenza, as anyone can see immediately by placing the two together, if that's even necessary.
I doubt anyone buying a SRM 710 is being tricked by evil advertising into thinking they're getting something "just as good as" a Sebenza. Similarly, I doubt anyone intending to buy a Sebenza is going to stumble across an SRM 710, look at the price, do a Home Alone face-slap, and abruptly decide not to buy the Sebenza. Because price
Seriously, how many Sebenza sales are lost to Chris Reeve thanks to the SRM 710? I'd love to see an estimate that wasn't just wildass guessery.
Every successful knife design has spawned imitators and copiers in lower price ranges and thus it always has been, since stone hand-axes were the hottest thing in cutlery. This is the nature of designs that have to make their way in the real world. Success breeds imitators, and it's not going to stop. Ever.
Two cases alone are worth talking to a patents & trademarks lawyer about:
Outright forgery, meaning a clone as defined above
The use (without paying royalties to the patent owner) of a patented feature.
But if it doesn't fall into these categories, you're raising your blood pressure for nothing.
As for buying from China, do or not as you wish and your politics dictate. But be clear, at least to yourself, why you take the stand you do.
Just to be clear, I don't like the Communist Party of China's control over the country it's both vile and doomed. Yet I know personally a number of (mainland) Chinese citizens who have told me in private why they go along, however grudgingly. First, they have no choice. But second, Chinese people want desperately to have better, more stable lives than the Chinese have had for roughly the last 200 years. For ordinary Chinese, life is lot better now than it was in their parents' and grandparents' times. Any government that keeps things improving will have their support, however qualified.
Never forget this: China has roughly 1.3 billion people. Of these, about 300 million live in or near the cities and have mostly decent lives, with reasonable expectations of it getting better. That's a population in China's cities alone that's about the size of our entire (US) population.
Now let's say you're one of those urban Chinese. You're appreciative of the improvements in your life and those of your family, as compared to what your elders went through and could tell you about only in whispers, if then. How welcoming would you be of one-man, one-vote if all 300 million of your fellow urbanites are outnumbered 3:1 by the billion rural Chinese....? So for lots of reasons, the Chinese are slow to rock the boat politically.
Wandered a long way from knives. I'll just mention that Japan used to get slammed for exactly the same thing, then it was Hong Kong, then Taiwan, and so on. It's an old story. Buy what you like, where you like. But don't jump on others who choose differently. And the moral picture, legally enforceable patent issues aside, is murkier than you think.
<steps down from soapbox>
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Yes. We are all racist and we hate the Chinese.
I think that is the answer you were looking for. Happy?
I think that is the answer you were looking for. Happy?
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Personally I don't think the high end makers are being hurt by clones. If you want a sebenza you're gonna get a sebenza. Where it does damage is the assholes who buy 100 syderco military clones and go on ebay and sell em as legit. That's when they become a true counterfeit because they're used with the intention of fooling somone. All those high end clones have very distinct differences to the real deal. The KJ ones literally say kevin john triumph precision on the blade. How anyone could mistake that for legit is beyond me.
Now here's the thing like a Rolex watch or a designer purse some people see their high end knife as a status symbol or an exclusive club. (Not that anyone has any clue what our knives are worth or care if they did) Because of this when somone can get something very similar for a fraction of the price it pisses them off. Suddenly their exclusive club ain't so exclusive. In addition to that we all sit around blowing smoke up our own asses justifying the cost of these high end blades we love. When someone comes and does the same exact design in comparable materials and charges $180 it once again pisses people off. Because now it's proven that that beloved $400 knife didn't need to cost $400. It only cost that much because people were willing to pay it. Supply and demand. As you read this I'm sure I'm pissing someone off by telling it like it is. But truth is most of the high end brands are overpriced. But I don't blame them because if people are willing to pay then by all means charge the high prices. But where ever there is a really large profit margin someone is gonna come in and do the same thing cheaper.
Now all that being said I don't think it's right to steal someone's hard work. There are a couple instances where I would buy a clone. If the origional is not available. Like the ZT 888. I didn't buy one right away and now they're gone. If ZT made them available I'd buy a legit one. Second reason is my experience with the microtech DOC. I bought one and it had a host of problems and was basically a $350 paperweight. So I've ordered a DOC clone. I've held one in person and sadly it's BETTER then my legit DOC. it addressed all the issues and design flaws in the origional and since I've already paid for my steaming pile of microtech shit I feel that I owe microtech no brand loyalty and don't feel bad in the least to support the clone.
Now here's the thing like a Rolex watch or a designer purse some people see their high end knife as a status symbol or an exclusive club. (Not that anyone has any clue what our knives are worth or care if they did) Because of this when somone can get something very similar for a fraction of the price it pisses them off. Suddenly their exclusive club ain't so exclusive. In addition to that we all sit around blowing smoke up our own asses justifying the cost of these high end blades we love. When someone comes and does the same exact design in comparable materials and charges $180 it once again pisses people off. Because now it's proven that that beloved $400 knife didn't need to cost $400. It only cost that much because people were willing to pay it. Supply and demand. As you read this I'm sure I'm pissing someone off by telling it like it is. But truth is most of the high end brands are overpriced. But I don't blame them because if people are willing to pay then by all means charge the high prices. But where ever there is a really large profit margin someone is gonna come in and do the same thing cheaper.
Now all that being said I don't think it's right to steal someone's hard work. There are a couple instances where I would buy a clone. If the origional is not available. Like the ZT 888. I didn't buy one right away and now they're gone. If ZT made them available I'd buy a legit one. Second reason is my experience with the microtech DOC. I bought one and it had a host of problems and was basically a $350 paperweight. So I've ordered a DOC clone. I've held one in person and sadly it's BETTER then my legit DOC. it addressed all the issues and design flaws in the origional and since I've already paid for my steaming pile of microtech shit I feel that I owe microtech no brand loyalty and don't feel bad in the least to support the clone.
The vast majority of major knife companies have warnings and expressions of concern regarding Chinese counterfeits on their respective websites. So obviously THAT is a serious problem. Knives are simply one of the countless finished products that are counterfeited in China. The victim companies span all the developed nations, the U.S., EU, Japan.
Counterfeiting is a crime, not the same thing as "copying" a design. Copying a design only becomes an issue if it violates someone's proprietary rights to that design. In which case any maker who copies it would open itself up for a claim. But if the design is not legally "owned" then copying that design is not an issue legally. The product will simply be called a "copy" or
"knockoff" by the consumers.
I can also state that Japan was regarded as a maker of cheap imports and copies, before becoming recognized as an exporter of quality products. But it was NEVER regarded as a
source of Counterfeit products. Taiwan wasn't either. While Hong Kong was known as a source
of counterfeit products it was never on the scale that China is today.
Counterfeiting is a crime, not the same thing as "copying" a design. Copying a design only becomes an issue if it violates someone's proprietary rights to that design. In which case any maker who copies it would open itself up for a claim. But if the design is not legally "owned" then copying that design is not an issue legally. The product will simply be called a "copy" or
"knockoff" by the consumers.
I can also state that Japan was regarded as a maker of cheap imports and copies, before becoming recognized as an exporter of quality products. But it was NEVER regarded as a
source of Counterfeit products. Taiwan wasn't either. While Hong Kong was known as a source
of counterfeit products it was never on the scale that China is today.
One thing most people fail to realize.....
When you support the maker, designer, whathaveyou of a legitimate company with the rights to produce their design.... you are supporting a legitimate and legal business with employees that offers them benefits.
When you support a company that makes clones, knockoffs or whatever name makes you feel better....you are more often than not supporting a criminal enterprise that could care less about it employees, offers them nothing but employment at substandard payscale with no benefits..even slave and child labor. By doing so you are conspiring with this criminal enterprise to commit an illegal act. It has been shown that some of these criminals also use their ill gotten gain to traffic weapons, drugs and white slavery, among other nefarious activities.
As to those that prefer the name "homage".... it is a matter of morality.
Is it moral to copy anothers design so closely, even though devoid of trademark? Is it moral to make your money on the backs of those legitimate companies and designers whose hard work to bring the item to market you had no hand, time or capital invested in?
When you support the maker, designer, whathaveyou of a legitimate company with the rights to produce their design.... you are supporting a legitimate and legal business with employees that offers them benefits.
When you support a company that makes clones, knockoffs or whatever name makes you feel better....you are more often than not supporting a criminal enterprise that could care less about it employees, offers them nothing but employment at substandard payscale with no benefits..even slave and child labor. By doing so you are conspiring with this criminal enterprise to commit an illegal act. It has been shown that some of these criminals also use their ill gotten gain to traffic weapons, drugs and white slavery, among other nefarious activities.
As to those that prefer the name "homage".... it is a matter of morality.
Is it moral to copy anothers design so closely, even though devoid of trademark? Is it moral to make your money on the backs of those legitimate companies and designers whose hard work to bring the item to market you had no hand, time or capital invested in?
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No. But it is a fact of life, the rightness or wrongness whereof shrinks in the face of its enduring persistence.
"Life is a game. In order to have a game, something has to be more important than something else. Now if what IS is more important than what ISN'T, the game is over. So life is a game in which what ISN'T is more important than what IS. Let the good times roll!"
-- Werner Erhard
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Where was this proven at if I may ask? Have a source? If so, I would love to see it..
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It's proven when some guy makes the same design out of the same materials to the same specs and charges 1/3 what the other guy charges. That proves that the reason said knife cost whatever it cost wasn't because of the material cost or cost of manufacture. It proves that there is a ton of mark up on a lot of these knives. But we all know that don't we?
"Some guy" makes them a lot slower than a company, doesn't have tooling, warranty or payroll costs etc....etc.
Despite what some people think, there are many factors going into the price of a knife besides just making them.
So you wouldn't buy a modern Nessmuk or Schrader LB7?
Apple is a big company. Their workers aren't doing so hot.
Is the nessmuk or the schrade still being manufactured by the originating company?
Are any patents from a defunct company still enforceable?
I own neither model, nor have any plans to do so in the future.
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The first DOC Microtech's seem to have been problematic, but to be fair they did correct them and I have one that's flawless. I've also read of others saying the same. In fact my Scom Delta and DOC are both great knives and firmly on my keeper list. If they both weren't worth what I paid I would have returned them to the dealer I purchased from. Also the clones don't have the same blade grind as the real ones. But, if you feel you must have something close to the real deal and you're bitter over the one you've bought have at it. I myself would just as soon do without. Plus, MT isn't the only company to turn out a POS on a new model. look at the ZT 0780, I had one of those that was so bad ZT wouldn't even try to fix it. But, I still have purchased ZT's since then.
Flawless real deal..
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I posted a photo of a Sanrenmu 710 on a certain gun forum... my posts were deleted, I got a PM warning me not to post anything pertaining to Sanrenmu 710s again. Mod was a Sebenza fan. 
: I think it's laughable, the knives look sufficiently different, $9 Sanrenmu vs $400 Sebenza, oooooooh the Ganzo G704 - now there is a blatant ripoff.
: I think it's laughable, the knives look sufficiently different, $9 Sanrenmu vs $400 Sebenza, oooooooh the Ganzo G704 - now there is a blatant ripoff.- Status