When is everyone okay with copying designs?

[Rhinoknives1]

One thing most people fail to realize.....

When you support the maker, designer, whathaveyou of a legitimate company with the rights to produce their design.... you are supporting a legitimate and legal business with employees that offers them benefits.

When you support a company that makes clones, knockoffs or whatever name makes you feel better....you are more often than not supporting a criminal enterprise that could care less about it employees, offers them nothing but employment at substandard payscale with no benefits..even slave and child labor. By doing so you are conspiring with this criminal enterprise to commit an illegal act. It has been shown that some of these criminals also use their ill gotten gain to traffic weapons, drugs and white slavery, among other nefarious activities.

It s a little off topic but is there any reason that white slavery is any worst than any other kind?

 

[RX-79G]

Hmmm... IMO, there aren't shades of wrong - it is either right or wrong. How do you know the money made by selling counterfeit knives isn't pumped into another criminal enterprise involved in terrorism? At least I don't. Many such small profits made with not-so-honest means end up in a bigger pool of crime more often than not, and it is hardly surprising non-democratic countries involved in such acts.

Counterfeit knives, and knives that look like a reputed knife (inspired, homage) without acknowledging the original maker is a NO GO for me. And I do not support dealers who sell such homages as well. It's not political, just a moral stand I take. If I can't afford the real deal, I won't buy it. Living beyond ones means isn't exactly a good lesson especially if you have kids! ;-)

Relating your statements back to the OP, do you feel that 1970s Schrade, Greg Wall and Sanrenmu are "criminal enterprises"?


One thing I find hilarious is that Sanrenmu was guilty of making Axis lock knives in the past (they seem to have stopped). Axis lock is Benchmade, Benchmade has a deal with HK to make branded knives, yet legitimate HK branded knives are being sold in large US sporting goods chains that are made by Sanrenmu. Given BM's relationship with HK, why is BM okay being associated this way with a company that stole from them?

 

[nick21]

^Can of worms has been opened

 

[Mountain Mike]

It's always good to have a civil conversation/debate on such subjects. However, only each of us as individual can come to our own answer as it's based on their own morals, ethics, and opinions.

 

[AreBeeBee]

It's always good to have a civil conversation/debate on such subjects. However, only each of us as individual can come to our own answer as it's based on their own morals, ethics, and opinions.

This, indeed.

 

[AreBeeBee]

http://chrisreeve.com/Counterfeits

Chris Reeve acknowledges that the problem is getting much worse as Counterfeits become very realistic.. would draw your attention to the last paragraph on Chris Reeve's own website:

"If you are in doubt, check with us – as far as possible we will authenticate for you."

The modifier 'as far as possible' indicates that in some cases, Chris Reeve themselves haven't been 100% sure. Some say the only way to tell is by cleaning off the lubricants and weighing the knife.. the knockoffs are still a couple grams off.

If CRK is having trouble with counterfeits, how many of those are simultaneously (1) close enough to require a gram-scale or disassembly to detect, and (2) are priced down at the SRM level?

If you're going to counterfeit a $400 knife, you don't price it at $10. Even the rubes can figure that one out!

From what I've read, I think SRM can be faulted for its earlier unauthorized use of the axis lock. But claiming they "ripped off" the Sebenza? Nah.

 

[KenHash]

DUI, terrorism, and child molestation fall into a slightly different category of unacceptable behavior than product counterfeiting does . . . or at least they do for me. YMMV.

Back to reality. I'd contend that the majority . . . perhaps the vast majority . . . of people who buy counterfeit products do so knowingly or at least have a pretty good idea that that's what they're doing. Moral indignation carries people only so far. Then their pocketbooks take over . . .

I disagree. Allowing something to exist and continue, or objecting to it is pretty absolute. Sure, a counterfeit producing factory doesn't need to be hit with an airstrike, if that's what you mean by falling into a different category.
But objecting to or accepting something, regardless of what it is, is all in the same category. Only how one deals with and what response is warranted is where it differs.
I don't know if the majority of buyers KNOWINGLY buy counterfeits. I am excluding those who knowingly buy for the purpose of reselling them as genuine.
Apart from that group, you are left with (a) people who don't care if it's genuine
or counterfeit and (b) those who do NOT know and are fooled.
If the "Pocketbook" takes over, on one hand it may be a motive to buy a counterfeit for $25.00 than the real one for $250.00. But the same "pocketbook" thinking also says that it will never have the resale value of a genuine one.
Unless one is knowingly buying a counterfeit with the criminal intent of deceiving a buyer down the road.
Anyway, I stand on my position that counterfeiting is something to which we should all object, and continue to object without faltering and falling back on apathy.

 

[bld522]

I stand on my position that counterfeiting is something to which we should all object, and continue to object without faltering and falling back on apathy.

I don't have an objection to objecting. I have an objection to thinking that objecting is going to make any difference . . . other than making the objectors feel better about having objected, that is.

 

[RX-79G]

If CRK is having trouble with counterfeits, how many of those are simultaneously (1) close enough to require a gram-scale or disassembly to detect, and (2) are priced down at the SRM level?

If you're going to counterfeit a $400 knife, you don't price it at $10. Even the rubes can figure that one out!

From what I've read, I think SRM can be faulted for its earlier unauthorized use of the axis lock. But claiming they "ripped off" the Sebenza? Nah.

The really "good" Sebenza counterfeits are about $60.


Really, this thread isn't about counterfeits. We all know they are both wrong and illegal. My intent was to discuss legal "copying", something which everyone from Sanrenmu to TOPS does.


I recently bought a Sanrenmu 704. It is a really nice knife that I'm very happy with. Despite it being an original design by Sanrenmu, I felt that any review I posted would become a discussion of Chinese ethics, so I didn't bother to post it. Instead, I posted this thread.

And if I can be forgiven for editorializing, I would much rather buy an imported item that is designed, built and owned by a foreign company then buy any more foreign made US company stuff. Our economy is going south because we don't make anything anymore - hardly anything for ourselves, and certainly virtually nothing for export. You can't have an economy based entirely on service industries and a small group of business owners profiting from imports sold to service industry employees. That's a snake eating its tail.

 

[jstrange]

^

Nice looking knife.

 

[Will Batayte]

The first DOC Microtech's seem to have been problematic, but to be fair they did correct them and I have one that's flawless. I've also read of others saying the same. In fact my Scom Delta and DOC are both great knives and firmly on my keeper list. If they both weren't worth what I paid I would have returned them to the dealer I purchased from. Also the clones don't have the same blade grind as the real ones. But, if you feel you must have something close to the real deal and you're bitter over the one you've bought have at it. I myself would just as soon do without. Plus, MT isn't the only company to turn out a POS on a new model. look at the ZT 0780, I had one of those that was so bad ZT wouldn't even try to fix it. But, I still have purchased ZT's since then.

Flawless real deal..

Truth be told my knife never should have made it out of the factory in that shape. If the first ones were problematic they never should have been released. That shows that money is more important to them then their loyal customers. If they didn't make em right then they should've just scraped the whole shitty run. Me like an asshole preordered that piece of shit thinking it's microtech & strider it's gonna be great. I was sadly dissapointed.
Thank god the clone doesn't have that atrocious blade grind or finishing. It would've been nice if it was done properly but mine is completely uneven on either side. It's honestly some of the worst grinding I've ever seen on any knife let alone a $350 microtech. Quite frankly what I'm saying is I intend to have something BETTER then the real deal. I know that's hard to swallow for some but it's the truth the clones are BETTER then the legit DOC'S. Smoother action, two giant slabs of TI for the handle, a comfortable to use, non sticky lock that locks up at at around 35% rather then near 100%, better finishing in the choil, a perfect even grind, bladefinishing that's actually even and uniform. Of yeah and here's a big one, a clip that doesn't stab my hand. That one was pure design idiocy. Why they would put that awful clip on there when strider has a great clip is beyond me. This is one of the few times a company has really really pissed me off. When I order something and am waiting for it for months the last thing I want to have to do is return it. Or worse yet send it to the factory for them to mess with it.
Personally I feel that microtech gave me a giant fuck you by letting something like this pass the doors of their factory. So as a giant fuck you right back I intend to keep both so when a friend asks me "hey what do you think of microtech" I can hand them both knives and say "you decide"
What's truly sad is I'm now more confident in buying a microtech clone then a real microtech. And that's a problem.

 

[KenHash]

"I would much rather buy an imported item that is designed, built and owned by a foreign company then buy any more foreign made US company stuff."

I understand your objection to not having a manufacturing base anymore, and
the US having become a service industry. That started back in the mid 1970s.
But I don't understand the above statement. An imported product that is designed, built and owned by a foreign company results in only one thing, the net income from sales flowing out the U.S. in entirety. If a US company manufactures a product overseas and sells it in the US, while the foreign factory gets paid, everything else remains in the US. I'm referring to the US workers, designers, sales staff, marketing, everybody, not to mention the dividends to the US owners. It seems to be more beneficial to the US economy that just money flowing out of the country. Buying an imported product that is designed, built and owned by a foreign company most certainly isn't going to bring back US manufacturing.

 

[Will Batayte]

It's difficult to get in the photo but that bow you see on the blade spine is because the swedge is way bigger on one side. The "stonewashing" nuff said, and the awful lockup

/ATTACH]

 

[Will Batayte]

I don't want to feel like I'm ripping my thumbnail off every me I disengage a lock.

Anyway I don't mean to hijack this thread so I'll post this. It's okay to me that some company has stolen Microtech's design because they're doing a better job of it. Maybe just maybe having a little comp will light a fire under microtech's ass to do a better job. Until then I'll be waiting for reviews before I purchase anything out of their shop and if the reviews are bad then I sure as shit won't hesitate to get the fake one if it's better. If microtech doesn't like that then they should do a better job

 

[jill jackson]

Truth be told my knife never should have made it out of the factory in that shape. If the first ones were problematic they never should have been released. That shows that money is more important to them then their loyal customers. If they didn't make em right then they should've just scraped the whole shitty run. Me like an asshole preordered that piece of shit thinking it's microtech & strider it's gonna be great. I was sadly dissapointed.
Thank god the clone doesn't have that atrocious blade grind or finishing. It would've been nice if it was done properly but mine is completely uneven on either side. It's honestly some of the worst grinding I've ever seen on any knife let alone a $350 microtech. Quite frankly what I'm saying is I intend to have something BETTER then the real deal. I know that's hard to swallow for some but it's the truth the clones are BETTER then the legit DOC'S. Smoother action, two giant slabs of TI for the handle, a comfortable to use, non sticky lock that locks up at at around 35% rather then near 100%, better finishing in the choil, a perfect even grind, bladefinishing that's actually even and uniform. Of yeah and here's a big one, a clip that doesn't stab my hand. That one was pure design idiocy. Why they would put that awful clip on there when strider has a great clip is beyond me. This is one of the few times a company has really really pissed me off. When I order something and am waiting for it for months the last thing I want to have to do is return it. Or worse yet send it to the factory for them to mess with it.
Personally I feel that microtech gave me a giant fuck you by letting something like this pass the doors of their factory. So as a giant fuck you right back I intend to keep both so when a friend asks me "hey what do you think of microtech" I can hand them both knives and say "you decide"
What's truly sad is I'm now more confident in buying a microtech clone then a real microtech. And that's a problem.

I thought the same thing when I bought a new ZT 0780 and the lock up was loose, the clip holes to swap the clip weren't even threaded or drilled through and the liners uneven. About half of those were unfixable according to ZT, yet they let them out the door and stopped making them rather than try to straighten out the model. I just sent my 0780 back to the dealer for a refund, as ZT wasn't fixing the really bad ones but replacing them with an entirely different knife of like value. That's what they told me they couldn't even fix mine- yet they let it out the door. Like I said my MT DOC has no problems, flips great, locks up perfectly, the clip doesn't hurt my hand, the grind is even and it's sharp. If it hadn't been I'd have sent it back for a refund as well, but I wouldn't have ordered a clone of it myself because I don't have to have one and I won't support design thieves, but that's just me.

 

[jill jackson]

I don't want to feel like I'm ripping my thumbnail off every me I disengage a lock.

Anyway I don't mean to hijack this thread so I'll post this. It's okay to me that some company has stolen Microtech's design because they're doing a better job of it. Maybe just maybe having a little comp will light a fire under microtech's ass to do a better job. Until then I'll be waiting for reviews before I purchase anything out of their shop and if the reviews are bad then I sure as shit won't hesitate to get the fake one if it's better. If microtech doesn't like that then they should do a better job

So, rather than return it to where you purchased it for a refund you become bitter and decide it's fine to support design thieves? I guess I could and many others as well have decided our 0780's were grounds to purchase fake ZT's off Aliexpress for a fraction of the cost and claim ZT should do a better job if they don't like it, based on your thinking. Also you are completely ignoring the fact that MT did straighten the DOC model out and I have one free of the problems you've listed.

 

[stonproject]

This always comes up with Chinese knife brands. Clearly, it is not cool to copy a patented item and then bring it into the US. But there there's all the folks that feel it is intellectual property theft when a company makes a knife that is similar in shape to an existing one. Here's a vaguely Sebenza like knife from Sanrenmu that bothers many people here:

Similar in shape, very different in details and materials. But it seems to get some people's blood boiling that Sanrenmu used the layout of this 26 year old knife.

I was reading the big hollow handle survival knife thread, and came across the work of Greg Wall:

Greg's website says:

http://www.wallhandmadeknives.com/#!about-me
Randall is still producing knives.

Along the same lines, Chad Nell makes a business of crafting what he calls "Loveless style" knives, like this classically styled Loveless Drop Point Hunter:

http://www.nellknives.com/Drop-Point-Hunter.html

And, of course, the most copied design ever (Buck 110) in it's almost as famous Schrade LB7 form:

Do these knives also get the blood boiling, like when Chinese maker does this?

I have a problem with counterfeit knives, absolutely.

The sanrenmu is not a counterfeit. Its simply a solid knife, that looks similar to other solid knifes, like the sebenza.

Do you realize how generic the shape is on a sebenza? There are a lot of knives that look similar.

Its one thing to outright steal a design, its another to make a knife similar.

How many knives out there are similar to a fairbarnes dagger or the classis kabar fighting knife? Is every knife with a striking resemblance to them ripoffs?

Knifes are too basic, with tens of thousands of variations of them to get hung up over similarities.

A counterfeit knife is a whole other can of worms.

 

[zack1421]

Make what you want as long as it's not exactly the same and you don't try too sell it as a knife it looks like. That wouldn't be moral there is a lot of stuff in this world that everyone owns and will continue to own that the basic design was invented by someone else... then slightly changed to make it there own

 

[RX-79G]

"I would much rather buy an imported item that is designed, built and owned by a foreign company then buy any more foreign made US company stuff."

I understand your objection to not having a manufacturing base anymore, and
the US having become a service industry. That started back in the mid 1970s.
But I don't understand the above statement. An imported product that is designed, built and owned by a foreign company results in only one thing, the net income from sales flowing out the U.S. in entirety. If a US company manufactures a product overseas and sells it in the US, while the foreign factory gets paid, everything else remains in the US. I'm referring to the US workers, designers, sales staff, marketing, everybody, not to mention the dividends to the US owners. It seems to be more beneficial to the US economy that just money flowing out of the country. Buying an imported product that is designed, built and owned by a foreign company most certainly isn't going to bring back US manufacturing.

It is no longer beneficial to the US economy to have a very small group of people get paid a larger amount because they utilized cheaper foreign labor. A country that is populated by two very different income groups is worse than one where no one is doing all that well so everyone becomes invested in changing that. It's a lie we tell ourselves that some US money to a few people is better than none.

 

[Karda]

I don't want to feel like I'm ripping my thumbnail off every me I disengage a lock.

Anyway I don't mean to hijack this thread so I'll post this. It's okay to me that some company has stolen Microtech's design because they're doing a better job of it. Maybe just maybe having a little comp will light a fire under microtech's ass to do a better job. Until then I'll be waiting for reviews before I purchase anything out of their shop and if the reviews are bad then I sure as shit won't hesitate to get the fake one if it's better. If microtech doesn't like that then they should do a better job

This is nonsense. A thief is a thief no matter how well he does his job.
If a thief takes your design and does a better job of making it, you are going to be ok with giving him carte blanche to do so?