When is everyone okay with copying designs?

[Will Batayte]

Here if it makes everyone happy I'll put this out there. Microtech, if you come on this thread and apologize for selling me a lump of crap and offer to replace my knife outright for one that is perfect. I will then cancel the order for the clone and delete my coments. The ball is in their court. If they care about their customers and want to make it right then they have the chance to change my mind.

 

[K.O.D.]

I've always wondered, despite the fact that Spyderco trademarked the "spydie hole" there are competing and higher tier companies that use the hole or some likeness of it. Does that mean they pay royalties to Spyderco for using that design?

 

[jill jackson]

Will, I don't know where you bought the DOC you have, but I always buy any knife from a retailer that will accept returns. The ZT 0780 was a POS too for the most part and when I bought one and it had lock rock and very poor F&F I just returned it and bought something else. I've bought ZT's since then though I didn't let that experience make me so bitter I started ordering ZT clones from Aliexpress. I've had a few MicroTechs and everyone has been perfect. Enjoy your new Chinese made DOC. (Did you ask MT to fix it?)

 

[PURPLEDC]

Will, I don't know where you bought the DOC you have, but I always buy any knife from a retailer that will accept returns. The ZT 0780 was a POS too for the most part and when I bought one and it had lock rock and very poor F&F I just returned it and bought something else. I've bought ZT's since then though I didn't let that experience make me so bitter I started ordering ZT clones from Aliexpress. I've had a few MicroTechs and everyone has been perfect. Enjoy your new Chinese made DOC. (Did you ask MT to fix it?)

Jill, i want to ask you how you personally feel about microtech making a nearly one for one copy of the 0777 not to mention their cobra knife which is nearly identical to a mikov auto. Or the ludt ums and udt which were all heavily influenced by the black knife? Tony has also used other designs without giving credit to those who were responible for them bit i cant remember the models. You say you dont support design thieves. But you also bought a microtech. I am not trying to put you on the spot. But you have always been a straight shooter so im interested to know why microtech gets a pass?

I've always wondered, despite the fact that Spyderco trademarked the "spydie hole" there are competing and higher tier companies that use the hole or some likeness of it. Does that mean they pay royalties to Spyderco for using that design?

If i remember correctly spyderco wanted to protect the hole long term so they filed a trademark since so many identify spyderco as the knife with the hole in the blade. I cant remember if they tried to patent it and failed due to the simplicity of a circle and it not being patentable or if they actually did get a patent at one point and it expired. I ont know if custom makers need to pay royalties but i know they at least need spydercos permission before using the round hole. Many simply skirt the issue by making the hole slightly out of round or another shape all together.

 

[jill jackson]

Jill, i want to ask you how you personally feel about microtech making a nearly one for one copy of the 0777 not to mention their cobra knife which is nearly identical to a mikov auto. Or the ludt ums and udt which were all heavily influenced by the black knife? Tony has also used other designs without giving credit to those who were responible for them bit i cant remember the models. You say you dont support design thieves. But you also bought a microtech. I am not trying to put you on the spot. But you have always been a straight shooter so im interested to know why microtech gets a pass?

I really knew nothing much at all of what you're speaking of. Heard a little about the 0777 deal and I have a ZT 0777, but none of the ones you're bringing up here. I just have a really nice MT Scom from 1998 and bought a DOC and a Scom Delta. Wasn't into the deal between ZT and MT at all.

 

[Will Batayte]

Jill, i want to ask you how you personally feel about microtech making a nearly one for one copy of the 0777 not to mention their cobra knife which is nearly identical to a mikov auto. Or the ludt ums and udt which were all heavily influenced by the black knife? Tony has also used other designs without giving credit to those who were responible for them bit i cant remember the models. You say you dont support design thieves. But you also bought a microtech. I am not trying to put you on the spot. But you have always been a straight shooter so im interested to know why microtech gets a pass?

Exactly. This is microtech's own game that I'm playing lol

 

[gibmoniplz]

http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2013/03/07/bootleg-empire-america-the-smuggler-nation.html

Just another case of history repeating itself...

 

[rob32]

I don't really care about clones or design copying. I have a few clones. They are not even in the same category as the original knife. They generally cost less than half what the genuine article would set you back, which puts them in a different price bracket, IMO.

I have a few fakes. One of which is a clone of a Spyderco Military. When I bought the knife, I had never used, much less held a real Spyderco knife. After a few weeks of carrying my Spyderco clone, I was sold. I really liked the knife, despite the fact that it has a few flaws I knew I would not see in a genuine Spyderco. I now own several Spyderco knives.

Last year I bought one of those Kevin John Strider clones. Great knife. It doesn't even have any of the issues that most people talk about with genuine Strider knives. However, after using the knife, I still want to try the real deal. I just hesitate to drop over $400.00 on a knife that I may not like. Picking up a clone for $100.00 to try out works better for me. I did learn that I'd rather have the SMF since my SNG clone feels a bit small for me. I'm currently shopping around for a good deal on a genuine SMF.

 

[beaconterraone]

The nature of culture (including technology) is that it is to be shared. Imagine if the concept of "intellectual property" existed millennia ago. We'd still be speaking in grunts and using stone tools.

Unless someone is exactly copying someone else's design and marking it in such manner as to fraudulently portray itself as the real thing, I do not have a problem with imitation.

In the vast majority of cases, so-called "intellectual property" claims are a tool of greed, not of survival or livelihood. The meme of the "starving artist" (or musician, or knifemaker) having to eat beans or ramen because someone imitated / copied him is myth. A myth made up by "intellectual property" lawyers and those suffering from Stockholm Syndrome towards them.

 

[craytab]

I don't really care about clones or design copying. I have a few clones. They are not even in the same category as the original knife. They generally cost less than half what the genuine article would set you back, which puts them in a different price bracket, IMO.

I have a few fakes. One of which is a clone of a Spyderco Military. When I bought the knife, I had never used, much less held a real Spyderco knife. After a few weeks of carrying my Spyderco clone, I was sold. I really liked the knife, despite the fact that it has a few flaws I knew I would not see in a genuine Spyderco. I now own several Spyderco knives.

Last year I bought one of those Kevin John Strider clones. Great knife. It doesn't even have any of the issues that most people talk about with genuine Strider knives. However, after using the knife, I still want to try the real deal. I just hesitate to drop over $400.00 on a knife that I may not like. Picking up a clone for $100.00 to try out works better for me. I did learn that I'd rather have the SMF since my SNG clone feels a bit small for me. I'm currently shopping around for a good deal on a genuine SMF.

What you are talking about in the last two paragraphs are not fakes or clones they are illegal counterfeits which have no place in this hobby.

 

[AreBeeBee]

Counterfeits and copies may not have a place in the hobby, but every successful design will breed low-price imitators. This is a rule of economic and technological life. The real question is whether it's worthwhile for a company to go after the counterfeiters. You can win your case hands down, but it'll cost you in legal fees, and the chance of much monetary recovery is slim. (Most counterfeiters are low-budget operations.)

You might want to pursue and punish, just as a warning to others, but how far into the counterfeiting industry the warning reaches is an open question. For Hermes leather goods, the news probably travels pretty far. Among knife makers...? I doubt the reach of trademark and patent news regarding knives goes worldwide. But maybe it does.

However I noted before that the best remedy for an infringed company is to keep improving the product that people are copying. (And lowering the selling price may be part of "improving the product" to undercut the counterfeiters.) Another approach is to invent new models that are better and more attractive to the market. Become a moving target instead of a stationary one.

Ultimately, however, every innovating company is on a technological treadmill they can't slow down, let alone stop. In the end, being "kleenexed" or "xeroxed" is the last-stop fate awaiting every product on the market.

 

[KenHash]

Last year I bought one of those Kevin John Strider clones. Great knife. It doesn't even have any of the issues that most people talk about with genuine Strider knives. However, after using the knife, I still want to try the real deal. I just hesitate to drop over $400.00 on a knife that I may not like. Picking up a clone for $100.00 to try out works better for me. I did learn that I'd rather have the SMF since my SNG clone feels a bit small for me. I'm currently shopping around for a good deal on a genuine SMF.

What exactly do you mean by "clone"? A knife that looks very much like another
but does not pretend to be the original? Or a counterfeit which does everything it can to pass it off as the original with the intent to deceive the consumer ?

 

[Shotgun]

Nobody gets upset when they see a chefs knife that looks JUST LIKE another chefs knife.

Yep. There is a very good argument for doing away with patents all together. They stifle innovation. Especially in this day and age where people buy patents for the sole intent of going around and suing anyone who has anything remotely similar just to cash in. That behavior tends to paralyze an industry. I'm leaning toward not caring to be honest. I won't buy the Chinese junk because...it's Chinese junk but I don't care if it happens either.

 

[Karda]

Yep. There is a very good argument for doing away with patents all together. They stifle innovation. Especially in this day and age where people buy patents for the sole intent of going around and suing anyone who has anything remotely similar just to cash in. That behavior tends to paralyze an industry. I'm leaning toward not caring to be honest. I won't buy the Chinese junk because...it's Chinese junk but I don't care if it happens either.

I think patents and intellectual property rights should be made stronger and more strictly enforced.
Where is the incentive to bring new things to market in the first place if someone with low morals and integrity is just going to copy you and profit from your hard work?

 

[Quiet]

I think patents and intellectual property rights should be made stronger and more strictly enforced.
Where is the incentive to bring new things to market in the first place if someone with low morals and integrity is just going to copy you and profit from your hard work?

I'm inclined to agree on this score. That's more or less what I was about to say myself.

 

[Shotgun]

I think patents and intellectual property rights should be made stronger and more strictly enforced.
Where is the incentive to bring new things to market in the first place if someone with low morals and integrity is just going to copy you and profit from your hard work?

Like was said to you earlier by another poster. You have to innovate. You have to hit the ground running with your product. If you make a product and just sit on your laurels you will fail regardless of whatever patent you have. It's the way the world works. I get that you don't agree but you're not going to convince me of your position. Have a good day.

 

[Karda]

Like was said to you earlier by another poster. You have to innovate. You have to hit the ground running with your product. If you make a product and just sit on your laurels you will fail regardless of whatever patent you have. It's the way the world works. I get that you don't agree but you're not going to convince me of your position. Have a good day.

Yes, hit the ground running only to be ripped off of your hard work, investment and effort. Three things thieves lack along with morals and integrity......
Sorry....but your never going to convince me that "thievery" is "Innovation", no matter what label you choose to put on it to justfy the action or make yourself feel better about fostering it. Have a thoughtful day.

 

[Shotgun]

Yes, hit the ground running only to be ripped off of your hard work, investment and effort. Three things thieves lack along with morals and integrity......
Sorry....but your never going to convince me that "thievery" is "Innovation", no matter what label you choose to put on it to justfy the action or make yourself feel better about fostering it. Have a thoughtful day.

Disagree if you like but don't twist my words. If you don't innovate with your product you will fail. Doesn't matter if you are dealing with a counterfeiter or a legitimate competitor. I get that you disagree but to be honest I don't really feel like you're listening to anyone you're arguing with. Read up on the issues with patent trolls and the problems with patent office itself. Or just keep a more simplistic view of the world. I'm cool with that.

 

[Karda]

Disagree if you like but don't twist my words. If you don't innovate with your product you will fail. Doesn't matter if you are dealing with a counterfeiter or a legitimate competitor. I get that you disagree but to be honest I don't really feel like you're listening to anyone you're arguing with. Read up on the issues with patent trolls and the problems with patent office itself. Or just keep a more simplistic view of the world. I'm cool with that.

I don't think I twisted anyones words at all....
It's been said right here that thievery is justifiable because it drives innovation.
Go ahead and believe lies all you like, it doesn't make it truth.
The simple truth is that some people have integrity and some people don't.

 

[craytab]

Counterfeits and copies may not have a place in the hobby, but every successful design will breed low-price imitators. This is a rule of economic and technological life. The real question is whether it's worthwhile for a company to go after the counterfeiters. You can win your case hands down, but it'll cost you in legal fees, and the chance of much monetary recovery is slim. (Most counterfeiters are low-budget operations.)

You might want to pursue and punish, just as a warning to others, but how far into the counterfeiting industry the warning reaches is an open question. For Hermes leather goods, the news probably travels pretty far. Among knife makers...? I doubt the reach of trademark and patent news regarding knives goes worldwide. But maybe it does.

The problem with going after knife counterfeiters is that most of them come from over seas and China specifically. Good luck winning a trademark or patent case in China.

However I noted before that the best remedy for an infringed company is to keep improving the product that people are copying. (And lowering the selling price may be part of "improving the product" to undercut the counterfeiters.) Another approach is to invent new models that are better and more attractive to the market. Become a moving target instead of a stationary one.

I see your point but the situation is more complex. Let's take a look at the Spyderco PM2 as an example. It is one of the most counterfeited knives coming out of China. Also, it is one of Spyderco's best selling models, so much so they cannot keep up with production, or keep stock on dealers shelves. So to avoid the counterfeiting should spyderco abandon the design or spend more time innovating it? I tend to think no since they can clearly keep making money on it.

What exactly do you mean by "clone"? A knife that looks very much like another
but does not pretend to be the original? Or a counterfeit which does everything it can to pass it off as the original with the intent to deceive the consumer ?

Kevin John makes counterfeits of CRK, Strider, Hinderer and likely others. Some of which are branded as such and some that are sterile. They are clearly made to deceive the customer. I know he has put out some of his "own" work. Who even knows who he is!

I think patents and intellectual property rights should be made stronger and more strictly enforced.
Where is the incentive to bring new things to market in the first place if someone with low morals and integrity is just going to copy you and profit from your hard work?

I couldn't agree more with this!

Disagree if you like but don't twist my words. If you don't innovate with your product you will fail. Doesn't matter if you are dealing with a counterfeiter or a legitimate competitor. I get that you disagree but to be honest I don't really feel like you're listening to anyone you're arguing with. Read up on the issues with patent trolls and the problems with patent office itself. Or just keep a more simplistic view of the world. I'm cool with that.

Oh, what you mean is quite clear. Karda didn't twist your words!