When is everyone okay with copying designs?

[Rhinoknives1]

Well, when I hung out with the late Bob Loveless at his shop a few times he would say, in just a few of his off handed remarks.
Copy my knives? You can copy everything of mine except my name. Along with, Imitation is the best form of flattery.

And my favorite.

I can't afford my own knives any more!

 

[craytab]

Well, when I hung out with the late Bob Loveless at his shop a few times he would say, in just a few of his off handed remarks.
Copy my knives? You can copy everything of mine except my name. Along with, Imitation is the best form of flattery.

And my favorite.

I can't afford my own knives any more!

The biggest problem for this hobby are the knives that DO have counterfeit names on them. The other problem is when members here support that practice. It sounds like Mr. Loveless was against that.

 

[Karda]

The problem with going after knife counterfeiters is that most of them come from over seas and China specifically. Good luck winning a trademark or patent case in China.

It's difficult but not impossible. New Balance sneakers won their case after several tries and with lots of money against a counterfeiter in a Chinese court of law. The problem is that the counterfeiter changed the logo a bit more and popped up again like the cockroach that it is.

Yes, spyderco should discontinue the PM2 for a time and pursue a legal case against the counterfeiters. It's their only choices.
And people wonder why items get discontinued or changed sometimes not for the better..... One reason could be because self serving individuals commit thievery and others make self serving excuses for it

Well, when I hung out with the late Bob Loveless at his shop a few times he would say, in just a few of his off handed remarks.
Copy my knives? You can copy everything of mine except my name. Along with, Imitation is the best form of flattery.

And my favorite.

I can't afford my own knives any more!

It's one thing if a maker/company gives open permission and quite another when they don't and when others help themselves for their own financial gain.

People need to think and not make excuses for acts of low integrity.

 

[AreBeeBee]

The problem with going after knife counterfeiters is that most of them come from over seas and China specifically. Good luck winning a trademark or patent case in China..... I see your point but the situation is more complex. Let's take a look at the Spyderco PM2 as an example. It is one of the most counterfeited knives coming out of China. Also, it is one of Spyderco's best selling models, so much so they cannot keep up with production, or keep stock on dealers shelves. So to avoid the counterfeiting should spyderco abandon the design or spend more time innovating it? I tend to think no since they can clearly keep making money on it.

I agree about China, but again, knives are small potatoes compared to the entertainment and luxury goods counterfeits coming out of there. (Not that it feels like "small potatoes" to those infringed upon.)

If Spyderco can sell those things as fast as they can make them, then I guess they just keep on keeping on. But at some point, sales will slacken, and when they do, I would hope that the company has sufficient new & better models queued up in the production pipeline, ready to go. That's just basic business sense.

As for patent and trademark protection, the benefits go in two directions, alternately. First, it gives innovators a period of time in which they can develop and sell (or licence) a product or feature for their exclusive benefit. The second stage, which involves society's interest, emerges when the protected period expires. Then its to everyone's benefit — that is, for society as a whole — that the innovator's exclusivity disappears, and the design becomes generally available for all to copy without paying fees or royalties.

The fight isn't over patent protection so much as over how long that protection lasts. I'm in favor of a strong law protecting innovators — but the period should last less than the current US term of 20 years (for utility patents) and 15 years (design patents). I'd cut those to 10 years and 5 years respectively, but I'd be willing to listen to arguments to the contrary.

In any case, the basic message to makers is: keep running as fast as you can, because the big boulder rolling downhill is right behind you.

 

[RX-79G]

I think patents and intellectual property rights should be made stronger and more strictly enforced.
Where is the incentive to bring new things to market in the first place if someone with low morals and integrity is just going to copy you and profit from your hard work?

This may be true of something as small and unimportant as the luxury/hobby knife industry.

But patent enforcement is killing agriculture and biomed.


At the end of the day, people purchase CRKs and Striders for the name, not just the look. Counterfeits are never going to rival real luxury goods for profits.

Patents are very limited protection, anyway. They are short in duration and limited in scope. They exist to protect the development costs of truly innovative products - not to make sure a knife designed on a cocktail napkin can't be copied.

The best anyone can do is make an ethical judgement and politely defend it. The whole problem is that no one seems to agree where the ethical line lies: Nessmuk? Buck 110? I don't think any two people in this thread agree precisely.

 

[Gadfly22]

My view: Even a successful knifemaker like Spyderco doesn't have the incentive to crack down on offshore counterfeiters because:

1. It's expensive.

2. The market is small. It's not like fake knives are being imported in crates by the tens of thousands and marketed on quality knife-selling sites. They pop up on auction sites or you can send away to China and wait, with no warranty or return protection. The secondary market on sites like this one, where quality used knives are bought and sold, probably steal more real potential sales from the quality makers than the knockoff market.

3. The typical buyer is not a Spyderco buyer anyway. He (or she) is looking for a knife on the cheap. Cadillac dealers aren't competing with SmartCar dealers.

4. Some buyers on the cheap decide eventually to buy the genuine article. The teenager who buys a cheap knockoff may someday have the cash to be the market a quality maker is targeting. It's like free advertising. Or getting hooked on crack and needing a bigger and better fix.

Now I don't think the quality makers like the counterfeits. The real risk to them is that the fakes enter the secondary market, and someone gets a false impression of a particular brand's quality, which hurts the brand reputation with the quality-buying market. But I think the cost/benefit analysis means that -- assuming no major change in the status quo -- the quality makers are happy to ignore the counterfeits.

 

[Shotgun]

"thievery" is "Innovation",

I don't think I twisted anyones words at all....
It's been said right here that thievery is justifiable because it drives innovation.
Go ahead and believe lies all you like, it doesn't make it truth.
The simple truth is that some people have integrity and some people don't.

I didn't say thievery IS innovation. I said patents stifle innovation. There's a difference. You most assuredly twisted my words.

Integrity.... K.

 

[bodog]

I didn't say thievery IS innovation. I said patents stifle innovation. There's a difference. You most assuredly twisted my words.

Integrity.... K.

Just curious, how do patents, trademarks, and copyrights stifle innovation? Monopolies stifle innovation. Restrictive tax laws stifle innovation. Asinine environmental laws stifle innovation. Corporatacrocies stifle innovation. Corrupt governments stifle innovation. But a patent? Come on. That only helps protect those people who are trying to innovate.

 

[craytab]

Just curious, how do patents, trademarks, and copyrights stifle innovation? Monopolies stifle innovation. Restrictive tax laws stifle innovation. Asinine environmental laws stifle innovation. Corporatacrocies stifle innovation. Corrupt governments stifle innovation. But a patent? Come on. That only helps protect those people who are trying to innovate.

That's a good point. If the innovation isn't innovative enough to not be patent infringing then is it really innovation?

 

[rob32]

What you are talking about in the last two paragraphs are not fakes or clones they are illegal counterfeits which have no place in this hobby.

That is your opinion and I respect that. My personal opinion is that I am not willing to shell out the prices some of these genuine knives command without first being able to get an idea of what to expect from that knife. There is a thread on here right now where a buyer purchased a Sebenza and is disappointed with it. It's a shame to drop over $400.00 on a knife and not like it. The fact that I was able to purchase those clones to try out led me to purchase the real deal when I would not otherwise have done so.

What exactly do you mean by "clone"? A knife that looks very much like another
but does not pretend to be the original? Or a counterfeit which does everything it can to pass it off as the original with the intent to deceive the consumer ?

They were clone/counterfeits. Those knives are all sold in the same couple places, so it is safe too assume that most of the people buying them know they are counterfeit and are not being deceived.

 

[Karda]

That is your opinion and I respect that. My personal opinion is that I am not willing to shell out the prices some of these genuine knives command without first being able to get an idea of what to expect from that knife. There is a thread on here right now where a buyer purchased a Sebenza and is disappointed with it. It's a shame to drop over $400.00 on a knife and not like it. The fact that I was able to purchase those clones to try out led me to purchase the real deal when I would not otherwise have done so.

And that member will be able to sell that sebenza for what he paid for it. They hold their value.
There is also passarounds to consider or asking a forumite that has one near you to check it out.

Theres no real viable rationale to purchase a counterfeit.

 

[Gadfly22]

Just curious, how do patents, trademarks, and copyrights stifle innovation? Monopolies stifle innovation. Restrictive tax laws stifle innovation. Asinine environmental laws stifle innovation. Corporatacrocies stifle innovation. Corrupt governments stifle innovation. But a patent? Come on. That only helps protect those people who are trying to innovate.

Seriously?

I file a patent on the idea for a widget that I have no intention of ever producing. You have an arguably similar idea that you plan to actually produce that will be an innovative and new widget. You block my patent and hold my idea for ransom so my widget never gets produced. Innovation just got stifled owing solely to the vagaries of patent law.

I have an idea for a new Mickey Mouse movie. But because Disney and other lobbyists got Congress to extend copyright protection yet again, can't make my MM movie. My new idea for a movie gets buried.

Trademark is less of an innovation problem than an imposition on poor folks whose real names sound like some famous brand.

 

[Karda]

Seriously?

I file a patent on the idea for a widget that I have no intention of ever producing. You have an arguably similar idea that you plan to actually produce that will be an innovative and new widget. You block my patent and hold my idea for ransom so my widget never gets produced. Innovation just got stifled owing solely to the vagaries of patent law.

I have an idea for a new Mickey Mouse movie. But because Disney and other lobbyists got Congress to extend copyright protection yet again, can't make my MM movie. My new idea for a movie gets buried.

Trademark is less of an innovation problem than an imposition on poor folks whose real names sound like some famous brand.

Entitlement syndrome?

 

[rob32]

And that member will be able to sell that sebenza for what he paid for it. They hold their value.
There is also passarounds to consider or asking a forumite that has one near you to check it out.

Theres no real viable rationale to purchase a counterfeit.

Selling things isn't always so cut and dry. I just finished an hour long conversation with Ebay today because of some complications that arose when I sold some katanas to an international buyer. After Ebay and Paypal fees taking a chunk of my money, I lost quite a bit selling those swords. I also recently saw a Sebenza 25 sell on Ebay for $250.00. That means the owner got around $200.00 bucks for a knife worth over $400.00.

The truth is, I enjoy some of those counterfeit knives. I like comparing them to the genuine article. I like carrying the fake for a few weeks to get a feel for a knife before I drop big money on the real thing. You disagree and that's fine. If a company makes a quality product, they have very little to fear from a counterfeiter.

 

[RX-79G]

Just curious, how do patents, trademarks, and copyrights stifle innovation? Monopolies stifle innovation. Restrictive tax laws stifle innovation. Asinine environmental laws stifle innovation. Corporatacrocies stifle innovation. Corrupt governments stifle innovation. But a patent? Come on. That only helps protect those people who are trying to innovate.

Is anyone here familiar with how Monsanto puts seed saving companies out of business?

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/06/10/monsanto-wins-lawsuit_n_3417081.html

Essentially, Monsanto sued 147 farmers and seed savers as well as threatened to sue many more because if their patented genes end up getting mixed in with a non-Monsanto crop, that's patent infringement.


The other problem is one that those familiar with Edison will understand. Most of Edison's innovations came from assembling previous smaller innovations into new combinations. Had he not had the enormous resources to buy up those patents, he would not have been able to invent the motion picture camera, for instance. The inability to build something new out of existing technology due to existing patents is an obvious example of stifled innovation.

 

[Karda]

Selling things isn't always so cut and dry. I just finished an hour long conversation with Ebay today because of some complications that arose when I sold some katanas to an international buyer. After Ebay and Paypal fees taking a chunk of my money, I lost quite a bit selling those swords. I also recently saw a Sebenza 25 sell on Ebay for $250.00. That means the owner got around $200.00 bucks for a knife worth over $400.00.

That's the auction site for you. New sebenzas sell on this forum rather well and rather quickly. All that is needed is the proper membership.

The truth is, I enjoy some of those counterfeit knives. I like comparing them to the genuine article. I like carrying the fake for a few weeks to get a feel for a knife before I drop big money on the real thing. You disagree and that's fine. If a company makes a quality product, they have very little to fear from a counterfeiter.

Your right, I don't agree with the self serving excuses people use to justify purchasing counterfeits. They hurt the hobby I love and hurt the brands that I love and degrade both. It's just a pity some people can't see the truth.

 

[Karda]

Is anyone here familiar with how Monsanto puts seed saving companies out of business?

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/06/10/monsanto-wins-lawsuit_n_3417081.html

Essentially, Monsanto sued 147 farmers and seed savers as well as threatened to sue many more because if their patented genes end up getting mixed in with a non-Monsanto crop, that's patent infringement.


The other problem is one that those familiar with Edison will understand. Most of Edison's innovations came from assembling previous smaller innovations into new combinations. Had he not had the enormous resources to buy up those patents, he would not have been able to invent the motion picture camera, for instance. The inability to build something new out of existing technology due to existing patents is an obvious example of stifled innovation.

I didn't seem to stifle Edison at all. He did so legally. Your strawman argument is invalid.

 

[Gadfly22]

I didn't seem to stifle Edison at all. He did so legally. Your strawman argument is invalid.

You should read up more on Edison.

 

[rob32]

That's the auction site for you. New sebenzas sell on this forum rather well and rather quickly. All that is needed is the proper membership.

Problems can still happen. I have also seen negative feedback on here.

Your right, I don't agree with the self serving excuses people use to justify purchasing counterfeits. They hurt the hobby I love and hurt the brands that I love and degrade both. It's just a pity some people can't see the truth.

Opinions are just that. They are not facts. Despite my purchase of a Spyderco clone, Spyderco seems to be doing rather well. I've even bought a few of their knives myself.

 

[bodog]

Seriously?

I file a patent on the idea for a widget that I have no intention of ever producing. You have an arguably similar idea that you plan to actually produce that will be an innovative and new widget. You block my patent and hold my idea for ransom so my widget never gets produced. Innovation just got stifled owing solely to the vagaries of patent law.

I have an idea for a new Mickey Mouse movie. But because Disney and other lobbyists got Congress to extend copyright protection yet again, can't make my MM movie. My new idea for a movie gets buried.

Trademark is less of an innovation problem than an imposition on poor folks whose real names sound like some famous brand.

No,I get it. Someone invents a way to separate the hydrogen from water as a fuel leaving oxygen as a "waste" byproduct. BP comes in and buys the patent and keeps it under wraps for 15 to 20 years. That stifles progress, I get it, it really do. But what if that person took the 100 million dollars he got from selling that patent and created a magnetic perpetual energy machine that was better than the hydrogen fuel system? In real life he'd probably sell that patent, too, or get killed it some random car crash. But that has nothing to do with the patent itself. That comes down to dirty politicians and corporaticians. As far as I know there are laws on the books regarding murder so what else can society do but protect those who create ideas and inventions as best they can and let capitalism do the rest? At worst the patent expires in 20 to 23 years and someone else is free to distribute the idea to the masses. Sometimes those ideas die away, sometimes those ideas become mainstream. That's up to public opinion and no laws nor lack of laws will change that.

As far as copies, I have no real beef with them as long as they don't promote themselves to be something other than what they are. If the company called Kevin John produces a knife exactly like another company's knife that has no patent on it but doesn't purport to be anything other than a Kevin John knife, then I don't really have a problem, especially if the price is commisurate with the materials and craftsmanship. At the same time, if another company truly innovates some widget and they patent it, they should be able to protect that ideas/product/reputation/brand for as long as idos reasonable. In the US that's about 20 years without extensions.

I do have a big problem when some small guy creates some widget/design/idea and gives it out voluntarily for public use and some corporation comes along, takes that idea, patents it, calls it their own, and gives no credit to the actual innovators. Some very popular knife companies do exactly that and I will not be buying anymore knives from them, just the same as I won't buy knives from blatant counterfeiters. As far as those who make generic copies of some random knife and market it as a copy and are found to be truthful in the materials and the price is in line with the product, well, I may very well purchase products from said company. But that's me. I find my thought process to be legal and moral, no different than buying a legal yet copied form of medicine or some car that copied the idea of including air conditioning and cigarette lighters or shatterproof glass.