When is everyone okay with copying designs?

[PURPLEDC]

Hmmm... IMO, there aren't shades of wrong - it is either right or wrong. How do you know the money made by selling counterfeit knives isn't pumped into another criminal enterprise involved in terrorism? At least I don't. Many such small profits made with not-so-honest means end up in a bigger pool of crime more often than not, and it is hardly surprising non-democratic countries involved in such acts.

Counterfeit knives, and knives that look like a reputed knife (inspired, homage) without acknowledging the original maker is a NO GO for me. And I do not support dealers who sell such homages as well. It's not political, just a moral stand I take. If I can't afford the real deal, I won't buy it. Living beyond ones means isn't exactly a good lesson especially if you have kids! ;-)

If here are no shades of wrong then why do we have shades of acceptable punishment for a given action. Or do you feel a person who runs a stop sign should be treated on the same way as a person who commits a violent crime? As for your question how do we know the counterfeit knife market doesnt fuel a larger more sinister plot? You dont. But i am willing to bet you cant know for sure that ANY company is or isnt tied into some higher organized crime. There simply is no way to tell. But if i am to make assumptions for one then i have to make assumptions for all. And i dont really like to assume anything, good or bad.

One thing most people fail to realize.....

When you support the maker, designer, whathaveyou of a legitimate company with the rights to produce their design.... you are supporting a legitimate and legal business with employees that offers them benefits.

When you support a company that makes clones, knockoffs or whatever name makes you feel better....you are more often than not supporting a criminal enterprise that could care less about it employees, offers them nothing but employment at substandard payscale with no benefits..even slave and child labor. By doing so you are conspiring with this criminal enterprise to commit an illegal act. It has been shown that some of these criminals also use their ill gotten gain to traffic weapons, drugs and white slavery, among other nefarious activities.

As to those that prefer the name "homage".... it is a matter of morality.
Is it moral to copy anothers design so closely, even though devoid of trademark? Is it moral to make your money on the backs of those legitimate companies and designers whose hard work to bring the item to market you had no hand, time or capital invested in?

Do you have any proof of how counterfeit goods are made and more specifically knives? And if we are going to draw such lengthy parallels between purchasing a product and therefore conspiring with a criminal enterprise then we have to be mindful of other parallels that can be drawn. One for instance being this very forum. It has a strict no clone, homage or replica policy yet i have seen many paid dealers who sell those very products. Why has no attempt been made to distance the forum from those dealers if this cause is one of such dire consequence? What about the russian, and american companies who have and still do violate patent and trademark laws? I dont have a problem if people really believe in this cause. But it does bother me when it seems only to apply to some.

This is nonsense. A thief is a thief no matter how well he does his job.
If a thief takes your design and does a better job of making it, you are going to be ok with giving him carte blanche to do so?

If a thief is a thief then is it not a bit biased to not ban the discussion or promotion of knives from makers who have proven to steal designs like microtech? After all if a thief is a thief its more than just chinese counterfeiters that should be held accountable. And really how many makers get a start replicating the work of loveless or randall knives? But a loveless will always command a premium no matter who replicates it or even improves on it. A maker should rely on his quality and execution. But with so many makers only familiar with tossing water jet parts into a tumbler i can understand the desire to focus on stolen designs. I think its a pointless argument. If you design a completely original knife these days its either ugly, unusable or both.

 

[Karda]

Do you have any proof of how counterfeit goods are made and more specifically knives? And if we are going to draw such lengthy parallels between purchasing a product and therefore conspiring with a criminal enterprise then we have to be mindful of other parallels that can be drawn. One for instance being this very forum. It has a strict no clone, homage or replica policy yet i have seen many paid dealers who sell those very products. Why has no attempt been made to distance the forum from those dealers if this cause is one of such dire consequence? What about the russian, and american companies who have and still do violate patent and trademark laws? I dont have a problem if people really believe in this cause. But it does bother me when it seems only to apply to some.

Just one example. There are other if you look: http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php/1080398-Counterfeits-The-Truth-of-the-matter

As for how this forum is run. You can send the owner an email or post a thread in tech support to voice your concerns.

 

[KenHash]

It is no longer beneficial to the US economy to have a very small group of people get paid a larger amount because they utilized cheaper foreign labor. A country that is populated by two very different income groups is worse than one where no one is doing all that well so everyone becomes invested in changing that. It's a lie we tell ourselves that some US money to a few people is better than none.

Interesting view. Funny though how China (PRC) was a country where no one was doing well
at all from 1948 to about 1990, and now is a country populated by two different income groups, with a spread much much wider than ours. Have you considered what would happen to the US if "no one did well"? And, assuming for a moment that the US did not fall into economic collapse, our manufacturing base for everything evaporated as we relied 100% on imports, our currency became worthless and every business and piece of real estate was bought by foreign interests, and our economic collapse dragged down our diplomatic and strategic relationships in the world, and if people "became invested in changing that" who is going to bother if they could not realize a profit commensurate with their efforts?

 

[PURPLEDC]

Just one example. There are other if you look: http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php/1080398-Counterfeits-The-Truth-of-the-matter

As for how this forum is run. You can send the owner an email or post a thread in tech support to voice your concerns.

I wasnt directing my question to the operators and owners of the forum. My question was directed at you and how you feel. I know that voicing any concern i have for this topic will be met with swift resistance. If i am lucky the thread at best will survive for a few pages where it either will be closed or more likely sent to w&c where threads go to die and have the bones picked clean and jokes made of the skeleton. My question was more of a curiosity into your own motives. You have made it very clear how you feel about the topic of clones, homages or whatever you want to call them. But as a person who draws such lengthy parallels between the right and wrong actions of others i am surprised you continue to moderate a forum who allows dealers of such goods to infiltrate the establishment. Because isnt that in a sense an unspoken way of condoning the actions or maybe even worse qualify as conspiring with known criminal organizations? All i know is if i was a moderator of a forum who was so against replica goods i would distance myself from those who sold them even if that meant distancing myself from moderating a forum that allowed dealers of such items to be paid members who never come under scrutiny for doing so.

 

[RX-79G]

Interesting view. Funny though how China (PRC) was a country where no one was doing well
at all from 1948 to about 1990, and now is a country populated by two different income groups, with a spread much much wider than ours. Have you considered what would happen to the US if "no one did well"? And, assuming for a moment that the US did not fall into economic collapse, our manufacturing base for everything evaporated as we relied 100% on imports, our currency became worthless and every business and piece of real estate was bought by foreign interests, and our economic collapse dragged down our diplomatic and strategic relationships in the world, and if people "became invested in changing that" who is going to bother if they could not realize a profit commensurate with their efforts?

If no one was doing well in the US, the US would change the way it does business. We are already headed for a collapse - having the leadership (gov't and business) figure that out sooner than later would be a good thing.


It doesn't matter - it isn't going to happen. Just saying that we are our own worst enemy. Other countries, like Germany, have figured out how to balance policy vs. capitalism very well. We haven't.

 

[Karda]

I wasnt directing my question to the operators and owners of the forum. My question was directed at you and how you feel. I know that voicing any concern i have for this topic will be met with swift resistance. If i am lucky the thread at best will survive for a few pages where it either will be closed or more likely sent to w&c where threads go to die and have the bones picked clean and jokes made of the skeleton. My question was more of a curiosity into your own motives. You have made it very clear how you feel about the topic of clones, homages or whatever you want to call them. But as a person who draws such lengthy parallels between the right and wrong actions of others i am surprised you continue to moderate a forum who allows dealers of such goods to infiltrate the establishment. Because isnt that in a sense an unspoken way of condoning the actions or maybe even worse qualify as conspiring with known criminal organizations? All i know is if i was a moderator of a forum who was so against replica goods i would distance myself from those who sold them even if that meant distancing myself from moderating a forum that allowed dealers of such items to be paid members who never come under scrutiny for doing so.

Apparently I wasn't clear enough?
Those dealers you speak of don't post their clones or counterfeits here, although they may have them on their websites.
What they choose to sell is their decision. It doesn't mean I have to like it or purchase from them.

 

[bodog]

I wasnt directing my question to the operators and owners of the forum. My question was directed at you and how you feel. I know that voicing any concern i have for this topic will be met with swift resistance. If i am lucky the thread at best will survive for a few pages where it either will be closed or more likely sent to w&c where threads go to die and have the bones picked clean and jokes made of the skeleton. My question was more of a curiosity into your own motives. You have made it very clear how you feel about the topic of clones, homages or whatever you want to call them. But as a person who draws such lengthy parallels between the right and wrong actions of others i am surprised you continue to moderate a forum who allows dealers of such goods to infiltrate the establishment. Because isnt that in a sense an unspoken way of condoning the actions or maybe even worse qualify as conspiring with known criminal organizations? All i know is if i was a moderator of a forum who was so against replica goods i would distance myself from those who sold them even if that meant distancing myself from moderating a forum that allowed dealers of such items to be paid members who never come under scrutiny for doing so.

Careful man, don't get banned over something stupid.

 

[PURPLEDC]

Apparently I wasn't clear enough?
Those dealers you speak of don't post their clones or counterfeits here, although they may have them on their websites.
What they choose to sell is their decision. It doesn't mean I have to like it or purchase from them.

You only put part of that sentence in bold which makes it irrelevant to the context in which you asked your question. So to answer it in relation to what I actually said? Yes, you have made your position regarding clones abundantly clear. And for further clarification, no, your position as to how you feel about the dealers who are paid members selling clones I dont think has ever been a matter of public record, hence the reason I asked. The reason I felt it was relevant is because the forum, manufacturers as well as independent makers all seem to publicly speak out against clones and try to limit the content of such knives to conversations similar to this one yet they will maintain business relations with those dealing in them despite them being viewed as part of the problem. To me it doesnt seem like the issue is as important as many would make it seem if a paid membership and lack of promotion of those products on the forum is all it takes to excuse those actions. You are right though. You dont have to like it, or buy from those dealers. But at the same time you could apply that same philosophy to any retail outlet dealing in such products. But even knowing that you still criticize out of network retail locations for such activities yet these dealers you dont have to like dont seem to come under the same scrutiny. It just seems like if this was such an important cause that everyone involved would be on a level playing field.

 

[Karda]

You only put part of that sentence in bold which makes it irrelevant to the context in which you asked your question. So to answer it in relation to what I actually said? Yes, you have made your position regarding clones abundantly clear. And for further clarification, no, your position as to how you feel about the dealers who are paid members selling clones I dont think has ever been a matter of public record, hence the reason I asked. The reason I felt it was relevant is because the forum, manufacturers as well as independent makers all seem to publicly speak out against clones and try to limit the content of such knives to conversations similar to this one yet they will maintain business relations with those dealing in them despite them being viewed as part of the problem. To me it doesnt seem like the issue is as important as many would make it seem if a paid membership and lack of promotion of those products on the forum is all it takes to excuse those actions. You are right though. You dont have to like it, or buy from those dealers. But at the same time you could apply that same philosophy to any retail outlet dealing in such products. But even knowing that you still criticize out of network retail locations for such activities yet these dealers you dont have to like dont seem to come under the same scrutiny. It just seems like if this was such an important cause that everyone involved would be on a level playing field.

I have no "business relations" with any vendor.
Again, if you have a problem how this site is run or moderated, your choice is to voice it in tech support to the owner, Not here.

 

[AreBeeBee]

This is nonsense. A thief is a thief no matter how well he does his job.
If a thief takes your design and does a better job of making it, you are going to be ok with giving him carte blanche to do so?

At the risk of pouring gasoline on the issue — this is exactly how technology progresses, and in any case, it's how the world works.

You have legal redress if your design is trademarked/patented (and you have the $ to pursue it in court). But while your moral case is impeccable, in practical terms your best bet is to improve the copied items — or invent something else entirely better. Reality: You're on a technology treadmill you can neither stop nor slow down.

This is why we're no longer using dial phones made by Northern Electric, attached to the Bell System with four-prong plugs.

Yes, it's cruel to individuals and individual companies — but it's how civilization & technology progress. The computers we are using to argue with came out of that system.

 

[bld522]

Careful man, don't get banned over something stupid.

I agree. Easy does it, PDC. Easy does it.

 

[brownshoe]

Imitation is central to human existence. Without it we'd be sitting in caves playing with ourselves. Ideas are free, people only try to control them to make more money. Greed and power is at the heart of all control of knowledge; there is nothing "good" about greed and a lust for power.

The originator of a good knife design makes a good bit of money before its copied. Buck is a good example, look how many have copied the 110, but they still make the best version and it still sells. Despite the clones, the sebenza is still selling like ice in August.

There is a boy in Kenya who developed a simple motion activated solar powered light system to protect livestock from lions at night (remember the song "the lion sleeps tonight"...well they don't). When asked would he patent it and sell it for money, the boy laughed and said it was a gift from god, it would not be right to make money from it. That's the way Loveless and Bose feel about their designs, they give them away and still make money.

 

[bodog]

Imitation is central to human existence. Without it we'd be sitting in caves playing with ourselves. Ideas are free, people only try to control them to make more money. Greed and power is at the heart of all control of knowledge; there is nothing "good" about greed and a lust for power.

The originator of a good knife design makes a good bit of money before its copied. Buck is a good example, look how many have copied the 110, but they still make the best version and it still sells. Despite the clones, the sebenza is still selling like ice in August.

There is a boy in Kenya who developed a simple motion activated solar powered light system to protect livestock from lions at night (remember the song "the lion sleeps tonight"...well they don't). When asked would he patent it and sell it for money, the boy laughed and said it was a gift from god, it would not be right to make money from it. That's the way Loveless and Bose feel about their designs, they give them away and still make money.

Well that kid's stupid because all it takes is some corporation to find out about the idea and patent it themselves. Then where would he be? Look at KAI's patents. They've done that pretty extensively but no one cares and no one remembers the original innovator while the corporation claims moral authority and profits.

 

[KenHash]

If no one was doing well in the US, the US would change the way it does business. We are already headed for a collapse - having the leadership (gov't and business) figure that out sooner than later would be a good thing.


It doesn't matter - it isn't going to happen. Just saying that we are our own worst enemy. Other countries, like Germany, have figured out how to balance policy vs. capitalism very well. We haven't.

Thanks. I could go on forever till the cows came home but to be honest it's so far flung
from knives, originals copies or otherwise that I've lost interest. But in closing, I constantly
hear of the US headed for collapse from people of countries that don't like the US, and my
response is basically a two word comment. Anyway, to each their own. Peace.

 

[Will Batayte]

I thought the same thing when I bought a new ZT 0780 and the lock up was loose, the clip holes to swap the clip weren't even threaded or drilled through and the liners uneven. About half of those were unfixable according to ZT, yet they let them out the door and stopped making them rather than try to straighten out the model. I just sent my 0780 back to the dealer for a refund, as ZT wasn't fixing the really bad ones but replacing them with an entirely different knife of like value. That's what they told me they couldn't even fix mine- yet they let it out the door. Like I said my MT DOC has no problems, flips great, locks up perfectly, the clip doesn't hurt my hand, the grind is even and it's sharp. If it hadn't been I'd have sent it back for a refund as well, but I wouldn't have ordered a clone of it myself because I don't have to have one and I won't support design thieves, but that's just me.

I agree with you 90% of the time but for this one because of what happened with the origional and the fact that I already paid for the design I don't mind buying a fake. In general I won't support the clones or condone it. Sure there are better places to spend my money but I really liked that design and felt burnt so a little burning back is in order. Plus microtech put out a copy of that zt knife because zt was gonna release a VAGUELY similar knife to one of their OTFs. When microtech threw a fit zt didn't release the knife. Then microtech goes and releases a direct copy of one of ZT's knives. So apparently microtech believes that fakes and stolen designs are the proper way to answer a percieved slight. So I'm just doing what they would do lol. All kidding aside though if I was given a good knife to begin with I never would have considered replacing it in the first place. So they made their own bed.

 

[Will Batayte]

So, rather than return it to where you purchased it for a refund you become bitter and decide it's fine to support design thieves? I guess I could and many others as well have decided our 0780's were grounds to purchase fake ZT's off Aliexpress for a fraction of the cost and claim ZT should do a better job if they don't like it, based on your thinking. Also you are completely ignoring the fact that MT did straighten the DOC model out and I have one free of the problems you've listed.

They may have straightened out the model but it's too late. They didn't straighten out my knife. Let me ask you a question. If someone robbed you would you then willingly give them your money again? Yeah if a company f▪cks me over I don't have any qualms buying from a direct competitor if they can do the job better.

 

[Will Batayte]

This is nonsense. A thief is a thief no matter how well he does his job.
If a thief takes your design and does a better job of making it, you are going to be ok with giving him carte blanche to do so?

Um yeah that's EXACTLY how the world works. People copy and add to other people's designs all the time. The best version is the one that wins out in the end. Look at benchmade's axis lock. Spydie made one almost exactly the same. Or the wave, or the opening hole, or the thumb stud. The list goes on and on. Way back when somebody was the first person to make a Congress, stockman, or trapper. Then everyone jumped on the bandwagon and now no one even knows who designed it. Look at the ti framelock. Everyone is doing that now. If it wasn't for shared knollege and stolen design parts the human race would be no where near where we are today. Where it's really wrong is when a guy tries to pass off his design as the real version in order to trick people. You also have to remember that the Chinese have very different ideas about these things. What we consider stealing they don't. That's a difference between our way of life and theirs and there really isn't anything we can do about aside from either buy or don't buy the designs. Normally I, like you won't. But in this situation I have decided to.


In addition to that the DOC copy is very different to the real knife. Completely different bladeshape, completely different handle material. Different pocket clip. At best it could be considered a homage.

 

[jill jackson]

They may have straightened out the model but it's too late. They didn't straighten out my knife. Let me ask you a question. If someone robbed you would you then willingly give them your money again? Yeah if a company fucks me over I don't have any qualms buying from a direct competitor if they can do the job better.

Whatever you need to do is fine with me. I didn't know we could say the F word on here!?

 

[Will Batayte]

Sorry if we can't but that's exactly what happened and I can't think of a better expletive to describe it.

 

[davek14]

http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2013/03/07/bootleg-empire-america-the-smuggler-nation.html