When is it time to ask for a deposit ????????

[Lorien]

people think they own you once you have some of their money.

that is very salient.

 

[SharpByCoop]

Devil's Advocate here....

As presented there are some holes:

The maker doesn't take a deposit.

The maker asked for payment and then the work ceased.

If the work was still ongoing, and not complete, then he WAS, essentially, asking for a deposit.

This known bad idea of 'deposit' arrangements could very well have been discussed early on and the savvy(?) collector said "No, that never works".

I want to say in this case it was justified, but I'm not convinced 'beyond a reasonable doubt'.

Now if the payment query was a test to see if said patron really had the funds to carry this through, then it changes. Both parties need to have experience in the market.

I wonder if the piece was so obscure it would not market well. That's where the road forks.

Good discussion to have.

I'm raising questions, not firm answers.

 

[JParanee]

I do not request or take deposits.....never have and probably never will. After this long in the game some of my work does include some very expensive skin and/or components. Fortunately timely delivery has never been an issue for me. I have developed very strong relationships with almost all my clients where mutual respect and trust is key. I routinely ship finished product along with an invoice payable upon receipt and, of course my clients have their item back in their hands before they pay a cent. So far I have no write offs to unpaid debt.

Now having said all that, if someone were to stiff me, I would do everything in my loud mouthed power to out them in and on every conceivable venue that is concerned with knives and/or collecting to make sure everyone knows what an asshole they are.

Paul

Funny

 

[JParanee]

Devil's Advocate here....

As presented there are some holes:

The maker doesn't take a deposit.

The maker asked for payment and then the work ceased.

If the work was still ongoing, and not complete, then he WAS, essentially, asking for a deposit.

This known bad idea of 'deposit' arrangements could very well have been discussed early on and the savvy(?) collector said "No, that never works".

I want to say in this case it was justified, but I'm not convinced 'beyond a reasonable doubt'.

Now if the payment query was a test to see if said patron really had the funds to carry this through, then it changes. Both parties need to have experience in the market.

I wonder if the piece was so obscure it would not market well. That's where the road forks.

Good discussion to have.

I'm raising questions, not firm answers.

All good points Jim

 

[Mike157]

If I'm asked for a deposit these days, I pretty much cringe. Out of the four times I've been asked for deposits, and substantial ones (at least for me) at that, the delivery time for three of them went from an implied month or two to well over a year. In at least one case, it was very clear that the knife was rather hurriedly finished - almost as an after thought. This was for fairly straight forward using knives.

I will, with trepidation, consider a deposit if I see that a maker is very active in completing and delivering orders within a reasonable amount of time, we can develop some type of rapport, and we can agree on a realistic delivery time. This went nicely in the last instance. Without having to supply a deposit, I'm much more at ease about a project and really don't mind waiting for as long as it takes. I would think that the knife maker/artist would feel a bit more at ease also. I also feel that a buyer that flakes should be burned at the stake. Too much work goes into a good knife for a buyer not to be 100% committed. I also agree that if a knife is highly customized, the buyer should be on the hook for it. Mike

 

[Salem Straub]

Yeah, no deposits taken here. I've seen many a maker crash and burn, with a ruined name in this trade, after taking too many deposits! It's not so bad not taking them, the last knife a customer didn't want I put up for sale at double what his cost would have been, and it sold quickly.
Steve Filicietti may be my favorite bowie maker yet, and we saw what happened there... a real shame!

 

[AVigil]

When the maker reached out to request payment he was told at this time that payment would not be forthcoming in a time fram that was exceptable to the maker and was than informed all work would cease till payment was arranged

He was than told so sad ...to bad ....order cancelled

That is the exact reason deposits are a common practice.

Many will order

Some will pay

 

[Augus7us]

This is a good post Joe, lots of good discussion here.

Something I would like to add is for those that do not ever take a deposit how many of you allow the customer to dictate how the knife will be designed or what materials will be used? I'm not talking about handle material or what the guard will be made of. More about customization that is not easy like inlay, engraving, inset stones, etc. If someone wants a specific type of engraving and purple stones set in the handle and you know this will make the knife difficult to sale to anyone else I'm not sure how you could do that and not ask for a deposit without accepting there may be some very costly loss associated with the piece if the customer backs out.

I think Ben touched on this when he said he believed he lost some work by not doing custom pieces. I think most makers follow the mantra of I make what I want or enjoy making and its up to the customer whether its right for them or not because of the risk associated with highly custom pieces.

All that said I do know a very well known maker that has made pieces in excess of $10k and some of those pieces were custom requests. I'm going to ask him if he takes deposits next time I see him, because you can't put that kind of time and money on the line for a buyer that backs out. I suspect he does take deposits or only does custom work for repeat clients. I think it is the latter but we'll see.

-Clint

 

[Augus7us]

Joe can you tell us what your maker friend has decided to do to prevent this going forward? Will he take deposits? Stop doing custom work? Just curious and forgot to ask in my last post.

-Clint

 

[HTMD]

There would be no issue with knife makers taking deposits if they could just manage the expectations of their customers in a professional manner.

Some may not want to fully acknowledge the truth in this statement, at their own peril. In fact, this is precisely what has given birth to old sayings like, "The customer (the one with the money) is always right" and "Fast pay makes for fast (meaning solid and lasting) friendships." Likewise, it is often said that 15% of one's success in any business is based on technical know-how and fully 85% derives from expertise in dealing with people.

Many fine and talented makers have given up on their dream of becoming a full time professional knife maker because they could not effectively manage customer expectations. And similarly, many potential collectors and patrons of the craft have faded or suddenly 'disappeared' after a bad experience of this kind. Deposits bring many types of expectations into the equation and thus many opportunities to sink the boat. Money is a psychologically and emotionally loaded issue in our culture - a lightning rod for all sorts of both reasonable and unreasonable expectations. Beware.

My bet dollars to donuts is that there is more to this story. There were probably several 'red flags' before it all blew up. These were missed opportunities for the maker to right the ship. Joe points out that the maker is "at the pinnacle of the game" and the customer is a "patron." So both have stature and neither can be written off as crazy or inept. However, in the end said maker failed to anticipate, recognize and address the customer's fuzzy grasp on what he/she actually wanted - failed to educate, set appropriate limits and manage expectations.

But is all of this really a big deal in the grand scheme of things? Yes, it is - because in the custom knife world right now there are very many outstanding makers and a distinct shortage of enthusiasts, collectors and patrons coming through the pipeline.

 

[jdm61]

.......Knife makers are notorious for not being the best business people

Knifemakers are artists of a sort and sometimes, they behave like artists.

 

[Aidenag]

I've always found it odd in the knife making community this distaste for taking deposits, both from the maker and customers viewpoint. I cannot think of any other craft or trade where its not expected to deposit or pay in full in advance for a custom piece. Having a custom wedding ring made? Yep that jewelers taking a deposit. Custom woodworking? Yep, deposit. High end bespoke suits and dresses? You betcha.. custom paintings? Damn right. Try finding a illustrator or graphic designer(who doesnt suck) that works a project for free until complete. skilled craftsman with solid reputations generally want deposits, just not in knife making it seems. In my previous job we wouldn't move an inch on a clients project without 100% payment up front, be it a $2k project or a $200k multi month long digital marketing campaign that involved anything from graphic design and video production, to hiring voice and acting talent. We earned a repuation of never failing, and that reputation earned us the right to expect nothing less than full confidence from our clients.

That said, As i see it, the problem in the knife community is:

1. Lets face it, ALOT of knife makers are trainwrecks when it comes to time managment and business skills. From beginners all the way up to mastersmiths, skill level in the shop does not always translate to the other just as important side of the operation. This leads to a lot of people crashing and burning by taking on too much, not setting deposits aside in case of illness, emergency, delays etc, poor communication skills. Basic business practices a lot of knife makers seem to forget, neglect or just never learned in the first place. The huge amount of hobbyist and part time makers really doesn't help this either, and it brings down the full timers reps each time one of these guys who isn't doing it right because its not their sole income and passion burns somebody.

2. Knife customers as a whole really are a special bunch ive noticed. Lot of know it alls, and waaay too many in need of instant gratification. Not all of course, not even a majority, but a large enough % to cause more issues than in other collector groups or handmade goods. Plus, lets face it, its knives were talking about. Testosterone of buyers and collectors is ganna be higher, macho bs, etc etc. That NEVER helps. I noticed this very fast in my old job, if it was a sports team, athletic company, gun maker, outdoors stuff, the client was always more in your face and demanding, and always caused more issues. We dreaded them and even had seperate order of operations for clients if they fell into the what we called, roid rage fields. No joke.

Solution for makers:

1. Dont ask for or take deposits until you have a solid reputation, know your limits, and have the right type of system in place to do so. If you haven't thought out how to make it work, including giving accurate timelines (not perfect scenario ones) and how to refund if things go south on ya, dont do it... When you do reach that point though, ALWAYS expect a deposit for a custom job. It truly baffles me that some guys with decades in this game, MS stamps on their work and thousands of sales under their belt, dont demand deposits for a custom piece that takes up days or even weeks of their time. It only assures as some point your getting shafted by someone. And you've earned the right to not let than happen to you...

2. Focus on showing why you expect deposits, and have earned them. Show why your not some guy doing this on the weekends between your kids soccer games. Don't worry if a customer wont agree to a deposit. If they don't, and you've got a proven track record and reputation, then its THEM who has the problem. Let em know they can buy a piece like anyone else first come first serve, but if they want custom work, they gotta lay down some cash. Lay it out in simple terms on your website, make it clear, define how it works, if done right, only customers you DO NOT WANT won't agree to it.

Solution for buyers:

Quit buying knives from people you can't trust. Does their website still look like it was built using geocities(do they even have a site)? How timely was their initial communication, did you research their reputation? Quit looking at only the quality of their knives, and look at the quality of their business and rep. If things dont look good, you can't expect good results. People putting deposits down on makers whose sole web presence is a facebook/instagram page makes me laugh everytime i hear of one getting burned.. if that maker was serious and knew how to run a biz, they would have more to show ya that they are here for the long haul...

2. Realize this is art, crafted by a single person.. delays can happen, blades break, etc. Dont pester constantly. Don't demand gratification over and over with updates. If you did your research, all will work out. Most of all though, dont be a dick, remember these are one man shows, small businesses, not the geek squad at bestbuy who yes you should treat like morons and pester them cause its only way they move an inch.

Anyway, if both sides, buyer and seller followed these simple things, i think the knife world would lose a lot of its stressful points. Still baffles me how it got like this, as like i said, look at ANY other custom made item in a different field of collecting, especially in handmade goods, and you sill be hardpressed to find no deposits being taken.

That's how i see it at least. Likei said it really baffles me how so few high end makers take deposits. Your skilled craftsman! Of course, if you just don't like the added stress a d expectations of taking deposits, thats one very valid reason, but in that case, dont take custom orders at all is my take on it.

 

[Murray White]

Unfortunately, all of the items mentioned in the above post are effectively "custom" and few knives are. By that I mean that the work being done is of value only to the one for whom the work is being done whereas almost all knives and I do emphasize "almost" can be sold to another individual if completed. Heck there are many knife makers that begin knives that they may not finish for many years after the blade is created for many reasons.

From my own experience, I am certainly glad I have not put out a deposit on knives as I can only think of a couple times that I have ordered something and actually gotten the product and far more times the exact opposite has occurred so I am thankful that no deposits were put out.

When in the Wedding and Portrait photography business, I used to always get "why do I need to pay a deposit or why do I have to pay the balance in full before I get my finished order?" My response was this -- "Can you think of anyone who would like to buy the photographs of YOUR wedding?" Payment was then provided with no further conversation.

As Ben mentioned, usually a knife ordered but never actually purchased can normally be sold at a show or online etc.

Unfortunately, there are folks like that customer that just defies the concept of proper business dealing and etiquette.

After having purchased a many hundreds of knives I am glad to be able to say I have made close to 100% of them as a finished product from a maker at a show, online or from a collector via some method.

MIght as well finish the piece and have it available at a show or online and likely it won't be around for long.

 

[Steven65]

I just got off the phone with a very respected maker friend who pretty much is at the pinnacle of the game right now

At this time I'm not going to mention names ....it's not about that

He received a commission from a patron

This maker like most smart makers does not take a deposit

We that have been in the game long enough have seen the result of makers taking deposits

The patron ordered a very specific piece and as time went on kept uping the build

Adding details like full integral , gold, engraving etc

As every upgrade came in he was quoted the additional charges

When the maker reached out to request payment he was told at this time that payment would not be forthcoming in a time fram that was exceptable to the maker and was than informed all work would cease till payment was arranged

He was than told so sad ...to bad ....order cancelled

Now I have an opinion on deposits and when I believe they are needed and when not

But before I throw my 2 cents in

What say you people of Blade ?

Joe this is an important discussion to have from both the makers and collectors perspective. You and I have been on the bad end when work has been paid for and promised and it is simply not completed by the maker. This has led me to a point where I refuse to pay for a project in advance or give a sizeable deposit.........However.......

I recently commissioned a big project from a well know maker here on BF and he asked for payments as the work was being done. His communication was excellent and he sent me numerous update pictures. He was a pleasure to work with and I did not mind that the bulk of the payment was made before the piece was completed. He also procured several expensive fittings and materials for the project which I payed for as and when he needed it.
Had we not used this method of payment he probably would not have been able to do this project due to the time and effort required to make it a reality. Like it or not he needs the income as he is doing the work to carry himself through.

I think that projects vary from maker to maker and piece to piece. Lets say I am ordering a well known pattern/design from a maker who has made many of them and my order is fairly straightforward, I should not be asked for a deposit. Should I back out of the order once it is complete the maker should have no problem moving the piece on. But if the piece calls for special fittings, materials or work then it is not out of line to ask for a payment towards that. Call it a deposit or a non-refundable payment to cover material costs.

I also feel that a small non-refundable deposit to secure a place on a makers list, say $50-00, is perfectly acceptable. It stops people from just impulse ordering stuff at shows or because they saw something online after 6 beers.

At the end of the day both makers and collectors have reputations to uphold. We should all be cognisant of the fact that our reputations and word are all we are, and must be honoured and cherished.

 

[Dougluvn]

I always ask for 50% deposit on a knife. All my knives are made to what the customer asked for right down to the type of steel and handle material. Most all my orders are local and from people who know me or from a friend of a friend. When I get more that 5 orders in Q I stop taking ordered. I always make for I have enough cash on hand to repay a deposit. Before I start to cut or forge steel I get the final profile and build specs agreed upon and I also ask "Are you happy with this and ready to move forward" at that point the deposit is not refundable and the build is set. I've screwed up and have had to start oven, once I even added little things to the knife to make right on something that I was in the wrong on. The reason I ask for a deposit is 1. it protects me and the buyer now has skin in the game. 2. it protects the buyer from me screwing up. As I stated already all my customers know me, we work together or I was in the Marines with them. My word is worth more than what few dollars I can make by screwing them over. I understand others will disagree with me but like some one already said. My parents owned 3 different businesses over the years and from that I learned people skills and customer service. I have a name and a reputation to lose so I,m not going to do anything to screw that up. I communicate with my customers, send them WIP photos so they are involved in the birthing of their knife. I ask questions along the way. Once I wanted to do something to a knife that I thought would make it stand out, it cost a few bucks to make the change and I told the buyer I will add it for free. In the end he was happy and I made a repeat customer.

Most businesses fail as a result up under capitalization, keep cash on hand (it's not your personal ATM). my deposit covers materials, and supplies. The remaining balance is saved.


In the end it's our reputation and we can do with it what we want at our own peril.

 

[Dougluvn]

i also feel that a small non-refundable deposit to secure a place on a makers list, say $50-00, is perfectly acceptable. It stops people from just impulse ordering stuff at shows or because they saw something online after 6 beers.

At the end of the day both makers and collectors have reputations to uphold. We should all be cognisant of the fact that our reputations and word are all we are, and must be honoured and cherished.

what he said!

 

[Chris Larrikin]

I agree that deposits can be a trap for either party, but I also think it's reasonable to cover exotic materials or even pay a commitment deposit for a unique piece. On the flipside, I expect the deposit money to be held in trust or used for the specified purpose.

I have paid deposits or paid upfront twice on custom knives. Very recently I paid the full (albeit very reasonable) price upfront to a maker here. I was comfortable doing so because he gave a concrete deadline for delivery (effectively a few weeks), showed excellent communication and payment was by PayPal goods and services. All went to plan.

The other time was a couple of years ago. I had ordered 3 custom knives while the Aussie dollar was high against the US dollar. The AUD was predicted to fall sharply (thanks guys) so I *asked* to pay a proportion upfront in order to save money. The maker was very hesitant but accepted. His hesitation gave me a lot of peace of mind. In this case his acceptance of advance payment was going over and above in terms of customer service. It was most certainly an indication of my regard for him.

 

[JParanee]

Joe can you tell us what your maker friend has decided to do to prevent this going forward? Will he take deposits? Stop doing custom work? Just curious and forgot to ask in my last post.

-Clint

Clint

I don't know

He's watching this thread probale figuring out a plan

 

[JParanee]

Really great points

It is a shame that a few bad apples have wrecked things when it comes to Knifemakers being treated like other craftsman that in their business practice the norm is receiving deposits

The list is long and ugly of the makers that have wrecked their reputation by taking monies and not delivering or finally delivering but by the time the order is completed the frustration and anguish of the process has made the whole transaction a mess

I have siggested to many very talented makers that they should no longer take orders

They should make what they want and than just sell it

If the maker is in high demand this works

If not ....it doesn't

I for one will not pay a deposit on a knife unless it is a very special request

As a maker I would not ask for a deposit nor would I build something that if the customer backed out of the order I would have difficulty selling

 

[Karl B. Andersen]

...........when a commissioned knife design starts getting too specialized and/or personalized and/or expensive to the point the knife maker wouldn't readily be able to find another buyer if by chance the initial deal went south it's time for the maker to get a deposit. If a collector is going to commission a specialized/personalized/expensive knife they should expect to pay a deposit.

That.