When is it time to ask for a deposit ????????

JParanee said:
Dudley

If you would of gave deposits you would of probale been beat also

Plus you have enough knives :)
Click to expand...

Probably, but at least I'd have something to hold over their heads and berate them at will! :D

Never enough buddy!!! ;)


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
Mike Quesenberry said:
After reading some of the previous comments I need to clarify my business practices. I do not ask for a deposit when the order is placed and that customer has the option to change the design when it's their turn. Basically it's just holding their spot in line. For new customers I'll ask that they send me a portion of the price as a commitment purchase when the knife is completed. I've always called or emailed the customer weeks in advance of starting their knife to see if the order has changed or if they are still interested. This will be the time when I ask for a partial payment. People's tastes change, their financial situations change and I understand that. My goal is to make that customer happy.

Steven, I don't want this individuals name mentioned publicly. That's not what this thread is about. It's about preventing this sort of thing from happening in the future.

This has been a great discussion, thanks again.

Mike
Click to expand...

Mike a maker such as yourself that is doing museum quality high end pieces that involve lavish appointments etc needs to protect their investment (TIME) while doing these projects

A maker that is producing a model that is simpler and as mentioned earlier could be put back into stock or sold to the next guy in line for that model is a different story

For those that do not know this is the kind of work Mike specializes in



This piece had outside artisans adding to it etc that require a substantial commitment
 
Great discussion. Russ A.: I like knowing the distinction of 'partial payment' vs. 'deposit'.

Knifemaker = Artist = WORST businessperson ever. That's one takeaway. (Not all. I've ALWAYS, always been paid. But I read the reports of the hazards.)

VERY established makers (Dozier?) have a deposit process which works for them BECAUSE they also perform an exceptional business model and have a concise idea of personal production times. He's an exception.

This is the area which defeats the majority of artisans: Time management. Best of intentions meets... life.

As soon as I read Joe's first post I thought: "Mike Q." Nowhere to hide with Joe's vivid description. ;)

Dudley: Yeah, I had a new upcoming maker in 2009 swear he'd make a knife for me and would contact me as I got close. Handshake. He was young and a superstar. It's eight years and the prices are in the stratosphere, and I promoted the HELL out of him then (and now). Never got the call. Sigh.

You're not alone.

Good thread.
 
I don't take deposits.
I don't make knives I don't like.
I give them when it will be finished. Most of the time it is finished ahead of time. very rarely I am a few weeks late, no more.
I contact the customer before I start and keep them updated on progress.

I got burned only once when a well known collector wanted my whole JS test set. He wanted to pay me in advance wich I turned down.
Next he wanted to pay me before going to Blade wich I turned down because there is too much that could happen to any of the knives.
Coming home from Blade the collector was nowhere to be found. Not by me not by other knifemakers I know.
We guess the gentleman passed away around the time of Blade.
Would I feel better with his money in my pocket and nowhere to send the knives?

I keep doing as I do now.

Dudley doesn't have enough knives. It is just annoying he has all the good stuff....:)
 
I want to add to the above the second thing that happened to me the trade I did with a knifemaker.
We would make a knife for eachother. I like those deals but after 3 years I am still waiting for mine. Last thing I heard it was being heattreated 2 years ago.
Must be one hell of a cryo.
 
I am only a part-time knifemaker. It is the sword thing that I want to mention. The knives I make are mostly hunting knives and easy to sell. I make swords that are precisely custom, with a ton of back-and-forth. I have the customer pay half for the work on the fittings if I buy them from someone (I always use the same guy, so that is easy, but I don't want to be stuck with a set of high-end fittings that are specific to a project).
BUT - I don't like to take deposits, or partial payments.
This is for a reason that has not been directly mentioned so far.
I DO MY BEST WORK AT MY OWN PACE. When someone has paid for half, they often want me to HURRY. Down that road is disaster for me. I just can't work faster than I work, so to speak. The product suffers, and I can't tolerate that.

So, even when it is really custom, I am no longer taking partial payment in advance.

I have been burned by a knifemaker who showed me a picture of a finished knife, and I bought the knife from him. Well, ok, I sent him some money. No knife.

Sad.

Anyway, I can't work well under time pressure. My work suffers. I had to admit that, and just deal with it.
 
erik markman said:
I want to add to the above the second thing that happened to me the trade I did with a knifemaker.
We would make a knife for eachother. I like those deals but after 3 years I am still waiting for mine. Last thing I heard it was being heattreated 2 years ago.
Must be one hell of a cryo.
Click to expand...

I am waiting on several I already sent my end of the deal for, a couple I doubt I will ever see.
 
Mike Quesenberry said:
I'm the friend Joe is referring to.

First off, I'd like to thank everyone for their input.

I've only had this happen once before in my 12 years of knifemaking. That knife is now my personal hunter and sits in the door of my truck.

I've grown accustomed to working with clients who are honest and upfront with all aspects of a custom build. A large percentage of my customers are repeat and I would never ask them for a deposit, no matter how elaborate the build, I'd consider it disrespectful.

I do not build knives that I don't like or look right to my eye. If there are design elements that the customer requests that I feel don't work with the knife, I try to steer them in an alternative direction. Because when the piece is finished it's my name that's on it, not theirs. This is a small community and reputation is everything.

I have decided to start taking deposits from new customers and once that business relationship has been established, further deposits will not be required on subsequent orders.

I'm not concerned about selling the knife. That's not what this whole thing is about. It's the dishonesty that really chaps my hide. This individual, I feel, never planned on paying for the knife. In doing so took someone else's slot who has been waiting patiently.

I'm proud to be a part of this community. The makers as well as the collectors are some of the finest individuals I know.

Thanks again

Mike
Click to expand...

hey Mike, you remember that time...?

Working with you on Rosebud was a pinnacle of my experiences in custom knives. Not just because it was a gift for the woman who chose me to spend her life with me, but because that whole process was filled to the brim with mutual respect, trust and... I'll say it- love:)

It was such a unique and difficult build for you, and so utterly significant to me that when it all came together, it was like magic!

***

I've paid in advance, I've paid after delivery. I understand that the hardest knife to make is the one that's already paid for, and adjust my expectations accordingly. Because I won't deal with someone who my intuition tells me is untrustworthy, I almost always don't. Mistakes will be made- that's a tuition that you have to pay in order to have knowledge

For me, the joy for this business comes from a 'people first' approach
 
Last edited:
SharpByCoop said:
Dudley: Yeah, I had a new upcoming maker in 2009 swear he'd make a knife for me and would contact me as I got close. Handshake. He was young and a superstar. It's eight years and the prices are in the stratosphere, and I promoted the HELL out of him then (and now). Never got the call. Sigh.

You're not alone.

Good thread.
Click to expand...

Exactly! Supported when they started out, bought their knives when no one had ever heard of them but as their notoriety gained, nothing....couldn't get a phone call, email, etc., nothing returned....even after conversing for years several times a week.

Not glad by any means to know I'm not alone but that's the Way of the World, or so it seems, these days....too bad.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
Well what I've garnered from this thread and I don't mean this in a bad way is ........

A lot of makers that should be accepting deposits are not.....and a lot of makers that should not accept deposits are :)
 
My website says up front that I don't want deposits and if sent anyway, will send it back. To accept a deposit diminishes the endorphins I get when the client hits the Paypal "send money" button.:D Now, when a client orders super expensive materials, I either ask the client supply the materials or remit partial payment for the materials after I pay for them......I don't consider this a deposit but a fair exchange of cash flow. If a client asks for a really weird design, my response back is "Thanks for considering me but I'll pass" - I have received some excellent design input from quite a few of my clients I might add.

When I'm ready to begin a build, an email or phone call is always made to request permission to proceed, see if there are any last minute changes, or decide on the build for the first time. When my queue gets to six months, I stop taking orders...... I think it's unfair to those patiently waiting for me to post a multi-year queue and develop new designs at the same time (which I have to do to stay fresh). This is just my personal business model.

This has worked well for me over the past seven years and I've only been stiffed twice, which I consider a pretty good track record. The one I remember most is a dropped hunter order from a very well known collector that posts frequently on this thread. It was ordered with desert ironwood burl and green liners, made in a timely manner with no deposit requested. I sent a photo along with the payment request and the collector vanished - walked away - no response. In case the person I'm referring to is reading this, we both know you lack honor and that I'm a better man than you for not mentioning you here.

Another consideration: when a knifemaker's gas tank is 7/8 empty (like mine) deposits are a real bad idea..... what man would leave his wife with a mess like that to deal with? To sum up, I don't mess with deposits and the vast majority of my clients have been a pleasure to deal with. I love what I do.

Which reminds me - Joe, shall I proceed with the knife you ordered on 1/25/2017? Any final changes? :D:)
 
Last edited:
TK Steingass said:
My website says up front that I don't want deposits and if not requested, will send it back. To accept a deposit diminishes the endorphins I get when the client hits the Paypal "send money" button.:D Now, when a client orders super expensive materials, I either ask the client supply the materials or remit partial payment for the materials after I pay for them......I don't consider this a deposit but a fair exchange of cash flow. If a client asks for a really weird design, my response back is "Thanks for considering me but I'll pass" - I have received some excellent design input from quite a few of my clients I might add.

When I'm ready to begin a build, an email or phone call is always made to request permission to proceed, see if there are any last minute changes, or decide on the build for the first time. When my queue gets to six months, I stop taking orders...... I think it's unfair to those patiently waiting for me to post a multi-year queue and develop new designs at the same time (which I have to do to stay fresh). This is just my personal business model.

This has worked well for me over the past seven years and I've only been stiffed twice, which I consider a pretty good track record. The one I remember most is a dropped hunter order from a very well known collector that posts frequently on this thread. It was ordered with desert ironwood burl and green liners, made in a timely manner with no deposit requested. I sent a photo along with the payment request and the collector vanished - walked away - no response. In case the person I'm referring to is reading this, we both know you lack honor and that I'm a better man than you for not mentioning you here.

Another consideration: when a knifemaker's gas tank is 7/8 empty (like mine) deposits are a real bad idea..... what man would leave his wife with a mess like that to deal with? To sum up, I don't mess with deposits and the vast majority of my clients have been a pleasure to deal with. I love what I do.

Which reminds me - Joe, shall I proceed with the knife you ordered on 1/25/2017? Any final changes? :D:)
Click to expand...

All good stuff and yes you should :)
 
TK

How about a little WIP thread

Nothing crazy a few shots as you go and than when I get it I'll do a little video etc :)
 
TK

How about a little WIP thread

Nothing crazy a few shots as you go and than when I get it I'll do a little video etc
Click to expand...

No problem Joe - it's a pretty straightforward knife but maybe the WIP will help some of the new makers coming on board.

BTW, better be careful with the tip of that sword buddy or you'll be going to trans gender bathrooms :)

 
TK Steingass said:
No problem Joe - it's a pretty straightforward knife but maybe the WIP will help some of the new makers coming on board.

BTW, better be careful with the tip of that sword buddy or you'll be going to trans gender bathrooms :)

Click to expand...

Your work is so very clean that I think it would benefit everyone and it gives me some cool pics to include in my video :)

As for Mikes piece

I have three daughters and the girls room is the girls room :)

Here is a great pic of that fantastic Gauche with scabbard

Wish it was mine :)



Do you believe anyone would pass on a commission from this guy

MIke doing his best impression of Howdy Doody in that shirt and some of my favorite people in the knife world

Paul Long
David Mirabile
Ryan Hays

 
Last edited:
Wonderful piece - I respect Mike's talent and Paul Long's great mane of hair. :)
 
Yes Paul really does have some great hair :)

As for Mikes work .... I believe he is the heir apparent to the museum quality genre that masters like Warenski , Hancock and a few others represent

He steps out of the box and creates works that are beyond words

He just needs to stop dressing like a marionette :)
 
Aidenag said:
I've always found it odd in the knife making community this distaste for taking deposits, both from the maker and customers viewpoint. I cannot think of any other craft or trade where its not expected to deposit or pay in full in advance for a custom piece. Having a custom wedding ring made? Yep that jewelers taking a deposit. Custom woodworking? Yep, deposit. High end bespoke suits and dresses? You betcha.. custom paintings? Damn right. Try finding a illustrator or graphic designer(who doesnt suck) that works a project for free until complete. skilled craftsman with solid reputations generally want deposits, just not in knife making it seems. In my previous job we wouldn't move an inch on a clients project without 100% payment up front, be it a $2k project or a $200k multi month long digital marketing campaign that involved anything from graphic design and video production, to hiring voice and acting talent. We earned a repuation of never failing, and that reputation earned us the right to expect nothing less than full confidence from our clients.

That said, As i see it, the problem in the knife community is:

1. Lets face it, ALOT of knife makers are trainwrecks when it comes to time managment and business skills. From beginners all the way up to mastersmiths, skill level in the shop does not always translate to the other just as important side of the operation. This leads to a lot of people crashing and burning by taking on too much, not setting deposits aside in case of illness, emergency, delays etc, poor communication skills. Basic business practices a lot of knife makers seem to forget, neglect or just never learned in the first place. The huge amount of hobbyist and part time makers really doesn't help this either, and it brings down the full timers reps each time one of these guys who isn't doing it right because its not their sole income and passion burns somebody.

2. Knife customers as a whole really are a special bunch ive noticed. Lot of know it alls, and waaay too many in need of instant gratification. Not all of course, not even a majority, but a large enough % to cause more issues than in other collector groups or handmade goods. Plus, lets face it, its knives were talking about. Testosterone of buyers and collectors is ganna be higher, macho bs, etc etc. That NEVER helps. I noticed this very fast in my old job, if it was a sports team, athletic company, gun maker, outdoors stuff, the client was always more in your face and demanding, and always caused more issues. We dreaded them and even had seperate order of operations for clients if they fell into the what we called, roid rage fields. No joke.

Solution for makers:

1. Dont ask for or take deposits until you have a solid reputation, know your limits, and have the right type of system in place to do so. If you haven't thought out how to make it work, including giving accurate timelines (not perfect scenario ones) and how to refund if things go south on ya, dont do it... When you do reach that point though, ALWAYS expect a deposit for a custom job. It truly baffles me that some guys with decades in this game, MS stamps on their work and thousands of sales under their belt, dont demand deposits for a custom piece that takes up days or even weeks of their time. It only assures as some point your getting shafted by someone. And you've earned the right to not let than happen to you...

2. Focus on showing why you expect deposits, and have earned them. Show why your not some guy doing this on the weekends between your kids soccer games. Don't worry if a customer wont agree to a deposit. If they don't, and you've got a proven track record and reputation, then its THEM who has the problem. Let em know they can buy a piece like anyone else first come first serve, but if they want custom work, they gotta lay down some cash. Lay it out in simple terms on your website, make it clear, define how it works, if done right, only customers you DO NOT WANT won't agree to it.

Solution for buyers:

Quit buying knives from people you can't trust. Does their website still look like it was built using geocities(do they even have a site)? How timely was their initial communication, did you research their reputation? Quit looking at only the quality of their knives, and look at the quality of their business and rep. If things dont look good, you can't expect good results. People putting deposits down on makers whose sole web presence is a facebook/instagram page makes me laugh everytime i hear of one getting burned.. if that maker was serious and knew how to run a biz, they would have more to show ya that they are here for the long haul...

2. Realize this is art, crafted by a single person.. delays can happen, blades break, etc. Dont pester constantly. Don't demand gratification over and over with updates. If you did your research, all will work out. Most of all though, dont be a dick, remember these are one man shows, small businesses, not the geek squad at bestbuy who yes you should treat like morons and pester them cause its only way they move an inch.

Anyway, if both sides, buyer and seller followed these simple things, i think the knife world would lose a lot of its stressful points. Still baffles me how it got like this, as like i said, look at ANY other custom made item in a different field of collecting, especially in handmade goods, and you sill be hardpressed to find no deposits being taken.

That's how i see it at least. Likei said it really baffles me how so few high end makers take deposits. Your skilled craftsman! Of course, if you just don't like the added stress a d expectations of taking deposits, thats one very valid reason, but in that case, dont take custom orders at all is my take on it.
Click to expand...

This is about the best post that has been made in my opinion. I too am confused about the negative disposition toward taking deposits.

I'd say if a buyer isn't comfortable paying a deposit, move on and buy from someone else or buy ready made knives. Seems common sense not to give a deposit to someone without a solid reputation, too. That is definitely something you have to earn or else as a maker you'll just get no business.

If a maker wants to require a deposit it doesn't mean they are a scam artist, it's totally his prerogative. Again the patron needs to use common sense and the maker needs to use common sense to know if he can ask for one at this point in his career and still get business.

Folks on here like Paul Long could ask for payment in full before even beginning work if he wanted and folks shouldn't bat an eye due to his outstanding reputation.
 
Joe, this has been a most interesting read.
I see taking deposits ( at least in my perspective ) as more book keeping. As most makers are one person operations. And most knife makers despise book keeping:eek:. In the point of this thread yes I can see where taking a deposit would defiantly be in order. But only when the build was starting. As was in this case.

I know a few makers that are taking deposits a year or more in advance of their builds. If I were a collector I would find another maker rather than pay this.

Just for the record I have not taken deposits. For the most part I have yet to need to ask for one. Have had a collector pay me as the build was in progress his choice.

Thanks

Bing
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top