When is it time to ask for a deposit ????????

[RogerP]

I don't solicit a deposit unless for pricey materials. I have had a customer pay in advance without my asking them...he got his knives. I don't like taking money up front because too much can happen. I don't want to take an injury and have to pay someone deposit money back. If I was injured there would be plenty else on my mind Money could get tight and I'd be bound to make a knife that was paid for...this is where the hardest knife to make is one that's paid for. In the situation described in the OP a deposit would totally have been in order. Even with a deposit the maker could still be getting stuck by a back out, especially if the knife wasn't easily marketable. I personally don't see the need for a deposit to place an order. I like to finalize everything before starting the project. That way price, materials, and any changes the customer might want are accounted for. If they cancel at that point I really don't worry about it.

Agreed, Ben. An email just before you start working on an order is a good idea - and something almost all the makers I work with will do as a matter of course. If there have been any changes in circumstances which impact the customer's ability to see the project through, that would be the time to say so and avoid any negative impact on the maker. Or if there are any design changes to the original plan. Heck, in quite a few cases my order has been "Let me know when you are ready to make a knife for me, and we can figure out what knife that will be at that time."

 

[HTMD]

After having purchased a many hundreds of knives I am glad to be able to say I have made close to 100% of them as a finished product from a maker at a show, online or from a collector via some method.

Me too, Murray. Buying only finished knives solved the whole problem and allowed me to more fully enjoy this hobby/interest in custom knives. I figured if I'm dropping big bucks on knives I don't need added tension and drama over time and money.

Still, it's encouraging to read the responses from makers above who have embed professional management of their customers into their core business models. I salute you!
:encouragement:

 

[JParanee]

Excellent advice Joe.

I recently attended a custom knife get together and a well known maker pulled out the most G-d awful knife. Well made but an absolute desecration of a Loveless design.
When I asked him why he made it he said it was a design commission from a customer. Now this maker probably does not need the commission or the money but he still made it........in my view a big mistake. That knife will have his name on it and will always be there to haunt him.

My view is that unless a maker is absolutely desperate they should not allow the customers to pressure them into making stupid crap. Sometimes the customer is not right.

I agree

I have gotten my best pieces and many people have also benefited by giving design requirements and material choices and letting the maker do the best that they can do instead of forcing them into making something that does not flow for them

 

[JParanee]

As a newbie to the knife business this is all super interesting. In my woodworking business I make small home/kitchen items by hand. New wholesale orders pay 100% up front before the order ships, and there's a minimum order to be able to sell my stuff, but reorders are free of minimums and are able to be paid for a whole month after they're recieved by the store. There seems to be almost no direct crossover between what makes sense for that business and for knives, but the important aspect seems to be that you need a contract of some sort, the less of a contract you have, the more risk incurred by both maker and client. I try to be extremely detailed and honest in my sale descriptions because the more informed the client is the stronger the contract is, whether it's a simple verbal agreement or a detailed document. Across the board, I don't want a single cent from anyone who doesn't really want what I'm selling.

Hell, I changed my name on BF to my real name to give myself some real world accountability after reading so much crazy behavior between knife makers and clients. I'm not sure exactly why this business is the way it is, but as an artist who went to art school, I may have an idea. Artists are the worst people with money I have ever met (in general). We tend to only be outgunned when it comes to poor monetary choices by the severely impoverished and folks with gambling addictions.

You make a very good point

In the world of knives we have verbal contracts

For many a verbal contract is enough

In my business verbal contracts mean nothing

Maybe a written contract with dates etc would be a fitting

I doubt you would have many makers sign on to a project that penalized them or could be cancelled if any part of contract was broken

It would be the same if when the maker requested payment and it was not forth coming in a timely manner and than he could cancel the contract and keep any deposits and re sell the piece

Maybe a written contract would benefit the whole industry

Btw

If written contracts were part of the knife world I know many makers that would be in big trouble

 

[JParanee]

That's a smart move for makers on many levels. To do otherwise is to forego a marketing opportunity with every post.

I think everyone should use their real name on here

I'm on many different forums and sites

I use my real name and I also put my phone number and email out there

I've had people say how can you post your number on a public forum

I laugh and say I pay to put it on signs along the sides of roads you gotta be kidding me

 

[JParanee]

Me too, Murray. Buying only finished knives solved the whole problem and allowed me to more fully enjoy this hobby/interest in custom knives. I figured if I'm dropping big bucks on knives I don't need added tension and drama over time and money.

Still, it's encouraging to read the responses from makers above who have embed professional management of their customers into their core business models. I salute you!
:encouragement:

I'm the exact opposite

I rarely by knives that I have not had some type of design input into

Don't get me wrong I do but most of my pieces are made for me

I can't remember when I've been asked for a deposit

Now to be fair I've been around a lot and I am well know to pay my bills so it's not a fair comparison dealing with people that have no idea of who you are

 

[daizee]

I don't disagree with any particular point.

The game is different for full-timers vs. hobbyists like myself.

I won't take a deposit, because then I feel my 'free' time which I use for knifemaking has been bought. Terrible feeling, and it eats as the creative pleasure of working in the shop. It seems to me that a maker is likely to get into trouble if they take deposits on a large queue, rather than at the time the knife is started. Some people (myself included) work on lots of stuff at once, and it's hard to predict finish timelines. But as soon as a customer has paid their cash, they likely expect work to begin and be timely. I make no promises of timeliness. Usually it's "my books are closed", or "if you don't mind waiting two years, I'll let you know when it's getting close to done and you can choose to buy it, or I will call the next guy on the list."

 

[betzner]

I've only given a deposit twice. Once was six months ago. I expect I'll have the piece in a few months. If I don't, I'll wait. I trust the maker absolutely, I've made no requests for design changes (his design) but have told him that if he has other ideas that he wants to include, by all means, up to another 30% of total cost. Do you think I would do this with just any maker and on any knife? You betcha I WOULD NOT. And he is even north of the border, where he can't be sued, either.

TRUST AND REPUTATION - that's what drives the deal in this particular case. No doubt in my mind I will be shocked and awed by the outcome. I'll show the piece here when finished.

 

[Mike Quesenberry]

I'm the friend Joe is referring to.

First off, I'd like to thank everyone for their input.

I've only had this happen once before in my 12 years of knifemaking. That knife is now my personal hunter and sits in the door of my truck.

I've grown accustomed to working with clients who are honest and upfront with all aspects of a custom build. A large percentage of my customers are repeat and I would never ask them for a deposit, no matter how elaborate the build, I'd consider it disrespectful.

I do not build knives that I don't like or look right to my eye. If there are design elements that the customer requests that I feel don't work with the knife, I try to steer them in an alternative direction. Because when the piece is finished it's my name that's on it, not theirs. This is a small community and reputation is everything.

I have decided to start taking deposits from new customers and once that business relationship has been established, further deposits will not be required on subsequent orders.

I'm not concerned about selling the knife. That's not what this whole thing is about. It's the dishonesty that really chaps my hide. This individual, I feel, never planned on paying for the knife. In doing so took someone else's slot who has been waiting patiently.

I'm proud to be a part of this community. The makers as well as the collectors are some of the finest individuals I know.

Thanks again

Mike

 

[JParanee]

I'm the friend Joe is referring to.

First off, I'd like to thank everyone for their input.

I've only had this happen once before in my 12 years of knifemaking. That knife is now my personal hunter and sits in the door of my truck.

I've grown accustomed to working with clients who are honest and upfront with all aspects of a custom build. A large percentage of my customers are repeat and I would never ask them for a deposit, no matter how elaborate the build, I'd consider it disrespectful.

I do not build knives that I don't like or look right to my eye. If there are design elements that the customer requests that I feel don't work with the knife, I try to steer them in an alternative direction. Because when the piece is finished it's my name that's on it, not theirs. This is a small community and reputation is everything.

I have decided to start taking deposits from new customers and once that business relationship has been established, further deposits will not be required on subsequent orders.

I'm not concerned about selling the knife. That's not what this whole thing is about. It's the dishonesty that really chaps my hide. This individual, I feel, never planned on paying for the knife. In doing so took someone else's slot who has been waiting patiently.

I'm proud to be a part of this community. The makers as well as the collectors are some of the finest individuals I know.

Thanks again

Mike

It can happen to the very best

I can't wait to see how the piece turns out

Put a micarta handle on it and let's do some cut testing

 

[betzner]

Mike and Joe, this is what it is all about, right here (IMHO):

"I do not build knives that I don't like or look right to my eye. If there are design elements that the customer requests that I feel don't work with the knife, I try to steer them in an alternative direction. Because when the piece is finished it's my name that's on it, not theirs. This is a small community and reputation is everything."

Bob

 

[Willie71]

I think a non-committal, no deposit wait list is the way to go. Contact the next person on the list as you are ready to start the next project.

 

[Russ Andrews]

First, I see a difference between a "deposit" and a "part payment"...mostly a matter of
timing and purpose.
A "deposit" is sometimes requested/offered to secure the order....may be refundable or not...may
apply to the purchase price or not....as may be mutually agreed upon.

In the early 70s, some of the guild members found that some horse traders were ordering knives from
the more popular makers, then if the knives didn't re-sell before the delivery time, the trader would cancel....
The problem was that makers would have extended backlogs.......turn down additional orders because of that,
only to find that orders they thought they had were to be cancelled, and the many month backlog was reduced
considerably.
It then became a recommended practice for members to request a minimal...sometimes non-refundable deposit when
an order was placed. The practice solved one problem, and encouraged others.....apparently.

A part payment, generally, may be requested when the work starts, with the balance due upon completion...subject to
mutual agreement.....The key being mutual agreement.

As for me....I don't ask for deposits, nor accept them if offered. BUT I will take my time on each piece, and sometimes find that
the time spent will overlap our household billing cycle. When such occurs, I have and do sometimes request a part payment..

Additionally, there are sometimes circumstances where paying in halves or thirds is advantageous to a client...either because of
the price of the order, or other factors. One such was an overseas client who preferred to pay in advance, in full, due to the
monetary exchange rate.......some years ago.


....

 

[JParanee]

All very good comments and I hope that this thread is helping a lot of makers make a decision on how they want to run their business

Nothing hurts a maker more than bad business practices

 

[Emre]

i have thought of doing deposits, maybe $75 on a $300 knife right before i start the knife, which is usually completed within a week.

I just ordered my second custom folder from Bob Dozier. He charges a $100 deposit and a 15% restocking fee if you return it. Seems reasonable to me.

If I were a craftsman with his reputation, I wouldn't even talk to a potential customer who would balk at putting up $100 for a custom piece.

 

[JParanee]

I just ordered my second custom folder from Bob Dozier. He charges a $100 deposit and a 15% restocking fee if you return it. Seems reasonable to me.

If I were a craftsman with his reputation, I wouldn't even talk to a potential customer who would balk at putting up $100 for a custom piece.

Bob is an awesome guy and an awesome maker and I don't know your order ....it could have ivory or other special materials that would make the knife different from a normal model in his line up

If that's the case I understand the deposit

But you will find many that have been in this a long time including myself that on a relatively stock model will not give a deposit

Again special designs and or materials yes on the deposit

A standard knife in there run ....no

I've ordered 10 k swords with no deposit but to be fair I was a repeat customer

On a new to the scene maker or someone that has been at it a few years I'm not to keen on it

I've been involved with custom knives for over 3 decades and the stories are endless on the way deposits have gone bad

Now if your talking about the maker that this happened to Mike Q

Mike is at the top

We are talking about 5k very custom pieces that do deserve some type of commitment on the customers part requesting gold inlay etc

 

[Kohai999]

This has been a great discussion.

I won't do a "deposit". Have ordered more custom, made-specifically-for-me knives over the last 35 years than most custom knife collectors have ever seen.

There have been exceptions...Randall Knives and Dozier come to mind...fwiw, don't own knives from either anymore, just not big on that belt satin finish.

One of the reasons from my side is that we have all seen and read about "bad" makers who cheat or outright steal from their collector base. I don't want to feed any of that, being a "victim" in this game is often only accomplished if you are a willing participant.

Quite frequently, makers will send me the knife to make sure I'm happy BEFORE they have gotten payment(I don't necessarily think that is a good idea), because I have never NOT paid in a timely manner for a knife and have built up my name over the years. Reputation in this game is everything, on both sides of the fence.

But what about "bad" collectors like this guy Mike is mentioning? IMO, they are the WORST part of the community, even worse than a "bad" maker, they contribute nothing positive and basically pee in the punchbowl.

I'd like to see this collector's name put up in big letters as a warning to other makers. When a collector doesn't pay their invoice, they are taking money out of the maker's mouth and that of their families as well. That is behavior of the lowest order.

As far as the original topic....it would seem reasonable as Russ has indicated, to make a "partial payment" when there is excessive outlay on the part of the maker....gold, exotic stones and especially engraving done by a third party, as this can be quite expensive, unique to the knife and often, the engraver expects payment upon finishing the job....the maker shouldn't have to sit on those costs.

In this case with Mike, there was extensive communication with the collector, it's not like any of this was a surprise to the collector. From what I have heard, the dude is just a worthless scumbag, and deserves to have his name dragged through the mud.

Best Regards,

STeven Garsson

 

[Dawkind]

One of the best threads/discussions in quite sometime...thanks to all that have posted.

On the flip side of this, I've been into this custom knife thing for quite a few years now and looking back there have been many times I wish I would have given a maker some sort of deposit.

Why you ask? Because after being told/promised I'd be made 'that knife' it never happened....no excuses, no response, nothing, like I never asked and they never heard me or got the order.

If I had all of the knives I've been 'promised' I probably wouldn't have room for them all, and by many a top-notch maker and some I even called my friends.

Always kind of sad and disheartening but that's The World of Custom Knives.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[JParanee]

One of the best threads/discussions in quite sometime...thanks to all that have posted.

On the flip side of this, I've been into this custom knife thing for quite a few years now and looking back there have been many times I wish I would have given a maker some sort of deposit.

Why you ask? Because after being told/promised I'd be made 'that knife' it never happened....no excuses, no response, nothing, like I never asked and they never heard me or got the order.

If I had all of the knives I've been 'promised' I probably wouldn't have room for them all, and by many a top-notch maker and some I even called my friends.

Always kind of sad and disheartening but that's The World of Custom Knives.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Dudley

If you would of gave deposits you would of probale been beat also

Plus you have enough knives

 

[Mike Quesenberry]

After reading some of the previous comments I need to clarify my business practices. I do not ask for a deposit when the order is placed and that customer has the option to change the design when it's their turn. Basically it's just holding their spot in line. For new customers I'll ask that they send me a portion of the price as a commitment purchase when the knife is completed. I've always called or emailed the customer weeks in advance of starting their knife to see if the order has changed or if they are still interested. This will be the time when I ask for a partial payment. People's tastes change, their financial situations change and I understand that. My goal is to make that customer happy.

Steven, I don't want this individuals name mentioned publicly. That's not what this thread is about. It's about preventing this sort of thing from happening in the future.

This has been a great discussion, thanks again.

Mike