When is it time to ask for a deposit ????????

It sounds like there is a giant riptide in the business models most knifemakers run on. It's pretty lame that there is a fair amount of people that can't run their business with integrity and don't fulfill their obligations. It's also pretty lame as a business owner to have someone waste your time, because well you don't eat if too much time is wasted.

Personally I have taken a deposit on every single custom order I've done, and it's been a safety net for me and the customer. Why is it a safety net? I know the customer isn't wasting my time, and the customer gets in my que with frequent updates on the project until finished. On a small custom job, I only take $30 - $50 to secure the order in line. It's not much for somebody to sit on so they don't mind waiting, and if they wanted to cancel and I didn't start yet then here's your money back! I won't go over a few months of back order regardless.

On any big orders I will take a non-refundable that covers all of my materials. If a customer wants to be a bonehead and cancel for reasons that are unrelated to my work then I'm not screwed. I don't see a deposit as unreasonable in the slightest as long as you're running a legitimate business. I'm here for the long haul, and to do that I need to keep my business ethics intact and ensure that my monetization model is protected. I've been lucky enough to have amazing customers, and I run them all through a "Press Check" - what's a Press Check? It's basically conversing with a customer and looking for any cracks in their motives. I do this by checking a customers imagination in the product they want, does it seem genuine? I check if they understand what they are asking for and the seriousness of it. Lastly I always like to challenge a customer on at least something in the order to make sure they are open to the fact not everything can go their way.

If my Press Check shows me the customer has a passion, understands his obligations, is open to input then it looks like we can work together. The last nail in the deal is the Non-Refundable deposit, and if they understand that commitment then we should have no issue as long as I do my job. Which I love doing my job so that shouldn't be too insane of a deal for me.

Business is all about being clear, and having a A to B. I think custom work can sometimes mess that up because B can change many times. I like to keep things clear, clean, and solid. Point B is going to be fixed before I even start point A. Obviously things change, but you'll save yourself lots of pain if you know where B is so you can get paid. I could go on for ages about business models, but I hope this little bit helps. Enjoy!
 
i assume when someone orders a knife, they have the money to pay for it. i had one guy who started saving for the knife after i finished it :) then another guy who said he just had to replace his car transmission needed a month to get the money together. they did pay but it but in the meantime i was feelin squeamish. twice people ordered a knife and when it was done, they never replied and vanished. out of 188 knives i guess that isnt too bad. i have had customers ask me if i wanted a deposit, that was cool but i did not take it. i have thought of doing deposits, maybe $75 on a $300 knife right before i start the knife, which is usually completed within a week.
 
If I was a well known maker at the pinnacle of my game, on this type of order, I would have asked for and collected 10%.
and when I was a small time collector, I was asked for a 10% deposit on a 8 month knife build and I happily paid it.

I'm a small time maker now, this isn't my living, i can lose money and do most of the time.
But if you are making a living as a knife-maker, any (prudent) business would ask for a small deposit in good faith (from an unknown customer).
 
JParanee said:
It is a shame that a few bad apples have wrecked things when it comes to Knifemakers being treated like other craftsman that in their business practice the norm is receiving deposits.
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The truth is that there is no way to fully safeguard against the few true bad apples on either side of the customer / knife maker equation.

I agree with the overall observation that deposits generally cause more harm than good and are best avoided by makers and customers alike. I think that when a project moves into the "unique piece" category - something that falls outside of the maker's style / body of work and thus would be harder for resale - a deposit might well be appropriate. But I also think that a maker would be wise to consider from whom they are willing to accept such a commission. If it's not someone you have worked with before - or someone who has worked with other makers that you know - you might want to pass on a commission to make his one-off fantasy knife dreams come true.

I also think that deposits may be appropriate to cover the cost of particularly expensive materials. Gold and jewels or a $600 piece of ivory - the maker shouldn't be on the hook for those and might legitimately ask for those costs t be covered at the time of purchase.
 
I take a deposit only when doing a knife that requires materials I do not usually stock, or if the design is so specific it would be hard to sell to someone else.

I'm a part time maker, and life gets in the way sometimes. Illness, injuries, equipment breakdowns, or busy periods at my real job can result in delays.
 
JParanee said:
Really great points

It is a shame that a few bad apples have wrecked things when it comes to Knifemakers being treated like other craftsman that in their business practice the norm is receiving deposits

The list is long and ugly of the makers that have wrecked their reputation by taking monies and not delivering or finally delivering but by the time the order is completed the frustration and anguish of the process has made the whole transaction a mess

I have siggested to many very talented makers that they should no longer take orders

They should make what they want and than just sell it

If the maker is in high demand this works

If not ....it doesn't

I for one will not pay a deposit on a knife unless it is a very special request

As a maker I would not ask for a deposit nor would I build something that if the customer backed out of the order I would have difficulty selling
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Most of my knives are custom orders. Mostly word of mouth referrals. What my typical process involves is the buyer telling me what they want the knife for, and their budget. I'll show them examples of knives I've made for that purpose and clarify materials desired, in their price range. I do a drawing, and pics of the actual materials. This has worked well. I'm not stuck making stupid designs, and the customers are informed as we go. Pics of each step towards completion. Payment is made at time of delivery.

I did a knife last year that I took a deposit on, as the knife was to be made from 3/8" 3v with a scandi grind. I gave a likely timeline for completion, but blew it by 6 months due to equipment problems, an injury, and a very busy period with my real job. I threw in a hunter blank and handle naterial as well as made a sheath as bonuses because of my problems. The knife was lost in shipping on top of it. That was the only knife I took a deposit on in the last year.
 
Willie71 said:
Most of my knives are custom orders. Mostly word of mouth referrals. What my typical process involves is the buyer telling me what they want the knife for, and their budget. I'll show them examples of knives I've made for that purpose and clarify materials desired, in their price range. I do a drawing, and pics of the actual materials. This has worked well. I'm not stuck making stupid designs, and the customers are informed as we go. Pics of each step towards completion. Payment is made at time of delivery.

I did a knife last year that I took a deposit on, as the knife was to be made from 3/8" 3v with a scandi grind. I gave a likely timeline for completion, but blew it by 6 months due to equipment problems, an injury, and a very busy period with my real job. I threw in a hunter blank and handle naterial as well as made a sheath as bonuses because of my problems. The knife was lost in shipping on top of it. That was the only knife I took a deposit on in the last year.
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Ugh

When it goes wrong sometimes it really goes bad

I agree with your model

A maker should never step away from what they believe is characteristic of their work .... unless it is an exercise or you are being paid a deposit :)
 
I'll be honest here

Some makers in some situations can charge a deposit

Some can not

If I were going to a very high end maker with a request to build something very specific that might only interest me and there were expensive materials involved I would expect to pay a deposit

If I were going to a mid level maker or relatively new maker and ordering a rather stick knife in his lineup I would not and will not pay a deposit

It's unfair

The established guy probale doesn't need my deposit

The mid level or newer maker does ...... but this the world of custom knives and what it has evolved to
 
Btw

We all know I've been in the middle of a lot of high end makers and high end collectors because of friendships and to be honest I'm staying away from it moving forward :)
 
Hello friends!!
I will tell you our experience.
Until a couple of years ago, we didn't ask anyone to deposit, most of the orders came through Bladeforums, all users very active in the forum, nothing to distrust.
The last few years have added a lot of customers coming from social networks, which I didn't met. After a couple of situations we had to start asking for a deposit of $ 100.- to confirm the order.
This deposit we ask if it is the first purchase that makes us that new customer, If the same person returns to buy no longer we ask for deposit.
 
claudio-cas said:
Hello friends!!
I will tell you our experience.
Until a couple of years ago, we didn't ask anyone to deposit, most of the orders came through Bladeforums, all users very active in the forum, nothing to distrust.
The last few years have added a lot of customers coming from social networks, which I didn't met. After a couple of situations we had to start asking for a deposit of $ 100.- to confirm the order.
This deposit we ask if it is the first purchase that makes us that new customer, If the same person returns to buy no longer we ask for deposit.
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Great policy my friend

Where you guys are at it makes sense
 
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Personally if I am not willing to make a deposit, I do not place an order.

Some people who I know, I do not require a deposit.

Strangers from the internet get to place a deposit so there is a meeting and agreement of the minds as to what is going on. Then again I only accept 5 custom orders on the books at a time. Taking dozens of deposits is what gets makers in trouble.
 
I'm trying to remember the last time I paid a deposit...... still trying...... :)
 
I don't solicit a deposit unless for pricey materials. I have had a customer pay in advance without my asking them...he got his knives. I don't like taking money up front because too much can happen. I don't want to take an injury and have to pay someone deposit money back. If I was injured there would be plenty else on my mind:( Money could get tight and I'd be bound to make a knife that was paid for...this is where the hardest knife to make is one that's paid for. In the situation described in the OP a deposit would totally have been in order. Even with a deposit the maker could still be getting stuck by a back out, especially if the knife wasn't easily marketable. I personally don't see the need for a deposit to place an order. I like to finalize everything before starting the project. That way price, materials, and any changes the customer might want are accounted for. If they cancel at that point I really don't worry about it.
 
JParanee said:
A maker should never step away from what they believe is characteristic of their work .... unless it is an exercise or you are being paid a deposit :)
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Excellent advice Joe.

I recently attended a custom knife get together and a well known maker pulled out the most G-d awful knife. Well made but an absolute desecration of a Loveless design.
When I asked him why he made it he said it was a design commission from a customer. Now this maker probably does not need the commission or the money but he still made it........in my view a big mistake. That knife will have his name on it and will always be there to haunt him.

My view is that unless a maker is absolutely desperate they should not allow the customers to pressure them into making stupid crap. Sometimes the customer is not right.
 
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I have paid deposits, and often offer to do so, mainly because i understand that most people don't know me. Because of a past mistake with an artist (not a knife maker, though), that still irritates me seven years on, i am more comfortable with a deposit that is a fraction of total costs, or tied to special materials, or something else that is reasonable. I'm also much more comfortable with a deposit when the maker is well known and established.
 
As a newbie to the knife business this is all super interesting. In my woodworking business I make small home/kitchen items by hand. New wholesale orders pay 100% up front before the order ships, and there's a minimum order to be able to sell my stuff, but reorders are free of minimums and are able to be paid for a whole month after they're recieved by the store. There seems to be almost no direct crossover between what makes sense for that business and for knives, but the important aspect seems to be that you need a contract of some sort, the less of a contract you have, the more risk incurred by both maker and client. I try to be extremely detailed and honest in my sale descriptions because the more informed the client is the stronger the contract is, whether it's a simple verbal agreement or a detailed document. Across the board, I don't want a single cent from anyone who doesn't really want what I'm selling.

Hell, I changed my name on BF to my real name to give myself some real world accountability after reading so much crazy behavior between knife makers and clients. I'm not sure exactly why this business is the way it is, but as an artist who went to art school, I may have an idea. Artists are the worst people with money I have ever met (in general). We tend to only be outgunned when it comes to poor monetary choices by the severely impoverished and folks with gambling addictions.
 
Park Swan said:
As a newbie to the knife business this is all super interesting. In my woodworking business I make small home/kitchen items by hand. New wholesale orders pay 100% up front before the order ships, and there's a minimum order to be able to sell my stuff, but reorders are free of minimums and are able to be paid for a whole month after they're recieved by the store. There seems to be almost no direct crossover between what makes sense for that business and for knives, but the important aspect seems to be that you need a contract of some sort, the less of a contract you have, the more risk incurred by both maker and client. I try to be extremely detailed and honest in my sale descriptions because the more informed the client is the stronger the contract is, whether it's a simple verbal agreement or a detailed document. Across the board, I don't want a single cent from anyone who doesn't really want what I'm selling.

Hell, I changed my name on BF to my real name to give myself some real world accountability after reading so much crazy behavior between knife makers and clients. I'm not sure exactly why this business is the way it is, but as an artist who went to art school, I may have an idea. Artists are the worst people with money I have ever met (in general). We tend to only be outgunned when it comes to poor monetary choices by the severely impoverished and folks with gambling addictions.
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That's a smart move for makers on many levels. To do otherwise is to forego a marketing opportunity with every post.
 
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