When the SHTF - Camps

Since I would probably running the a shelter or responding in some other way, I figure that would give me a measure of control, but then again Im usually headed in the direction everybody is running from.

if i really had to bug out, I think that state parks and campgrounds with at least some facilities would be a good goal if you had no other place to go, rather than shelters.

My camping gear on hand could sustain a group of four for a week or so without a problem.
 
But when you find your group of four surrounded by fourty... or four hundred? DOes you sense of fairness and generosity extend to depleating your resources in minutes instead of a week?
 
Yes. What is the likely scope and duration of the event? Is the disaster localized? Statewide? Nationwide? Global? Manmade or natural? Biological, seismic or astrial? Does it affect water and food resources or transportation? Climate? A logical defense is based upon reasonable knowledge of the problem, or perceived or expected problem.

Codger

I think I will keep prepaired for the worst case problem. We can't predict how everyone wil react(cops looting in N.O. came quick) and unless you absolutely did not speak about about you retreat or stock of supplies then you can bet some one knows that you wish didn't. A disaster is alitle like a riot in a prison many think their actions are anomous and wil do very bad things to other people and what caused the disaster really doesn't have any significant importance once the cause has passed (exception to NBC) and we just have to deal with the aftermath.
The camps would end up being a horror show with a first hand view how low the human common denominator can sink.
 
I agree. And to explain my thinking further, I think that in all except very localized events, the initial disaster will only be a catalyst that sets off a series of events, some natural consequences and some manmade by omission and commission. The initial damage from Katrina was quite light relatively speaking. It was a stroke of luck that cholera did not strike the area.

Codger
 
Just saw the segment again on NBC this evening on the 6 o'clock news, They highlighted the Houston debacle two years ago when people in cars moved three miles in 12 hours. They suggested that everyone be made to use public transportation for the evacuation of major cities. So there you are dressed in your cammies, boonie boots, camo floppy hat with your survival ruck with your tactical knife strapped to it, (not to mention your Ruger 10-22). How does that look to the average Joe or Jane who is sitting on the bus with their laptop and carry on bags filled with curling iron, blow drier, cosmetics and their PJ's. How far do you think you would get? Time to walk or bike out of the big city. An ATV with a trailer would be a good alternative to avoid the jams and use to go cross country. Zman
 
Just saw the segment again on NBC this evening on the 6 o'clock news, They highlighted the Houston debacle two years ago when people in cars moved three miles in 12 hours. They suggested that everyone be made to use public transportation for the evacuation of major cities. So there you are dressed in your cammies, boonie boots, camo floppy hat with your survival ruck with your tactical knife strapped to it, (not to mention your Ruger 10-22). How does that look to the average Joe or Jane who is sitting on the bus with their laptop and carry on bags filled with curling iron, blow drier, cosmetics and their PJ's. How far do you think you would get? Time to walk or bike out of the big city. An ATV with a trailer would be a good alternative to avoid the jams and use to go cross country. Zman

If you try to E&E dressed like that, with your equipment in the open you deserve what you get. My gear, including my firearms, all go into my pack or out of sight and I will be wearing normal everyday clothes, a bit more robust than normal maybe but still normal. Chris
 
Yep. Either way you are well out of the grey man mode and stick out like a sore thumb. Or ripe plum. Imagine you are a LEO or NG tasked with keeping order in an evac of a larger metropolitan area. What types would draw your scrutiny and action? That is what you don't want to be!.

Codger
 
Wow Neighbours guarding each others houses with guns in fear of roaming gangs, that must be a very scary place you live in. In all the natural disasters that have happened in this country we have pulled together and helped each other out. People tend to open up their homes, share what they have and not barricade them.

It would be foolish to assume how it's gonna be. Responsible men plan for all contingencies: good, bad, positive, and negative.
 
People in Oz are just better people is all.
http://www.aic.gov.au/publications/facts/2006/01_recorded_crime.html

There are approximately 21 million people in all of Australia's 2966368 square miles. In the U.S., there are 36,457,549 in California alone, 301,139,947 in the nation on 3537441 square miles. New York City packs 8.2 million residents within an area of 322 square miles.

7,400,000 people live on the 1,875 square mile island on which I reside. That averages out to 3,947 people per square mile.

Australia averages out to .14 people per square mile.

I wouldn't challenge the assumption that Australia's gonna be more civilized if the SHTF. Jack the density up to 4,000 and I'd bet the ranch on the opposite, eh.
 
7,400,000 people live on the 1,875 square mile island on which I reside. That averages out to 3,947 people per square mile.
QUOTE]

Q, how do you do it man, how?

If your not planning on moving, I'd suggest looking into a nicely stocked gunboat as your escape vehicle.

Helle

No camps for this kid and his family. I plan on staying put and if we can't I have options to go North or South, but I'm thinking South would be the road less traveled so that's probably the ticket.

Helle
 
7,400,000 people live on the 1,875 square mile island on which I reside. That averages out to 3,947 people per square mile.

Australia averages out to .14 people per square mile.

I wouldn't challenge the assumption that Australia's gonna be more civilized if the SHTF. Jack the density up to 4,000 and I'd bet the ranch on the opposite, eh.

To be fair the population is packed all along the coast and capital cities. Quote: http://www.abs.gov.au/AUSSTATS/abs@...EF56710D9B64FFC2CA2572360000B7AA?opendocument

"Australia's population density at June 2005 was 2.6 people per square kilometre (sq km), compared with 2.5 people per sq km in 2000. Of the states and territories, the Australian Capital Territory had the highest population density at June 2005 with 138 people per sq km (reflecting the fact that the city of Canberra constitutes a large proportion of the Australian Capital Territory's area), followed by Victoria with 22 people per sq km. The Northern Territory had a population density of only 0.1 people per sq km, the lowest of all the states and territories (reflecting more recent settlement, distance from areas settled earlier, large arid areas and, perhaps, climate).

Population density at June 2005 was highest in the city centres, particularly in the Sydney Statistical Division where the three most densely populated Statistical Local Areas (SLAs) in Australia were located. These were Sydney (C) - Central (8,400 people per sq km), Waverley (A) (6,600 people per sq km) and North Sydney (A) (5,800 people per sq km). Fourth on the list and Victoria's most densely populated SLA was Port Phillip (C) - St. Kilda (5,600 people per sq km). The SLA of New Farm in inner Brisbane (5,400 people per sq km) was Australia's fifth-most densely populated SLA."

Still not in the same league as your country. Also we haven't had a SHTF scenario to test us yet either. Nothing on the scale of Katrina even. It would be interesting to see how we all "pulled together" in a worst case scenario. :eek:
 
A very well thought out response, Noble Warrior. But... I thought the previous poster from Australia said you had been through huge disasters and handled them with grace and brotherhood, opening doors and sharing etc.?

Well, I don't live in a highly populated area, nor in wilderness. I have lived in highly populated areas briefly over the years and I also find it excessively stressful. I also lived on a narrow pennensula in FLorida that jutted out into the Gulf on one end and was divided from the mainland to the North by a mile wide bay. Evacuation was something done well in advance or not at all. I evac'ed ten years ago and didn't go back. I believe that if you think a SHTF situation might arise where you live, now is the time to move, not when the situation arises. This was definately one of the lessons of Katrina.

Codger
 
No camps for this kid and his family. I plan on staying put and if we can't I have options to go North or South, but I'm thinking South would be the road less traveled so that's probably the ticket.

Helle

Bare in mind that most folks up north hunt as do most folks anywhere outside the TC. Just don't head to Stillwater:D I'll want all the room I can get.
If SHTF I'll be layin low and counting on the sheep to round themslves up.
People individually are nice, as a group they are a mob and the most ruthless creatures to live on Earth.
 
I agree with Codger, I just moved from Chicago to Oregon, something I've been thinking of and needing to do for years. before the SHTF! The city is not for me, never really was, I've thought about all these scenarios and got my chance to move and took it.

I've been trying to learn as much survival as I can, if nothing else my camping skills have greatly improved. In a worst case scenario, whether local or larger, I'd be much better off now, and I'd try to help others if I could, if only in barter. Who knows what serious situations may come, all we can do is prepare the best we can, when we can...
 
What exactly are you implying when referring to "Detroit" and "that bunch"? I would think that any bunch of people, regardless of where they are from would be capable of desperate measures when placed in a desperate situation and unprepared for it.

And yes, a Gov. run camp or center is the last place you'll find me and my family.

hatchet-

Have you ever been to Detroit?

They proudly sell shirts like this in their gift shops...
guys_217_M4.jpg


Any more questions?:D

For a more local example take a run over to Tacoma and think about what it would be like within a week or 2 of anarchy.

Sure any town full of desperate people is going to be a bad place to be, but the rough towns are extra dangerous after shtf.
 
Just saw the segment again on NBC this evening on the 6 o'clock news, They highlighted the Houston debacle two years ago when people in cars moved three miles in 12 hours. They suggested that everyone be made to use public transportation for the evacuation of major cities.


I read this part and had to laugh. New Orleans had a plan in place to use public transportation before the hurricane hit. The busses, however, all ended up under water. I grew up in Houston and can tell you that public transportation would not be any better there. The real lesson to this is to LEAVE EARLY AND NOT WAIT!
 
My neighborhood had armed people patroling their own homes and neighbors looking out for each other.
A whole block of homeowners with rifles watching each others homes is the way to go.

it seems that there are two ways of looking at it, just like short-term survival vs. primitive living. are you holding out until quick rescue from big brother, and how long will that take? or are you figuring on holding out, maybe indefinitely, until some sort of order is imposed or otherwise establishes itself?

the image that came to mind was that of the Korean(?) business owners in the LA riots that protected their businesses. it seemed from the video i saw that nothing moved in their territory that wasn't shot at. they protected their own, but did not appear to distinguish between evacuees and looters. (if i'm wrong, blame the media for selective presentation.)

i witnessed a similar thing in Kuwait City years ago. 'citizens' formed roadblocks to stop & check traffic passing through, sometimes on nearby roads, not just inside the neighborhoods. my impression was that most made it through, but that some didn't. and no one got through (except us, sometimes by overt threat of force) without being hassled and searched. 'contraband' was 'seized', and contraband sometimes included water. anyone with stuff was a target because there were so many without stuff.

i didn't blame them. they were trying to get by and often were providing for families. but i recognized the danger. they were the ones who ignored warnings or couldn't leave ahead of time. didn't matter, they were where they were. and they dealt with it.

nighttime, though, was the time of much chaos. many people had to simply barricade themselves in their homes and sometimes had to defend themselves. i heard stories from some who lacked the capacity to defend themselves against aggression - mostly women and children without defenders, as you can imagine. daytime was the time for travel to obtain life supporting resources for them, but cautiously, without obvious weaponry or stuff. either brought attention. we were about the only ones with both, and we were often resented for that fact alone.

neighbors turned on neighbors, and old grudges were settled in a variety of ways.

as an amateur student of behavior, it was interesting. i don't think my observations were unique and i believe that these types of behaviors are universal. initially friendly and helpful peoples will transition when resources dry up. i didn't make it to the aftermath of Katrina, but wondered how it compared. especially the early days. those of my friends who did have some interesting tales, some never to be spoken of again.

even the mildest have the capacity to become vicious. and those already vicious...
 
should have included that the search for resources was often carried out by groups of women and girls. maybe because their men were dead or gone. maybe the men were guarding other people, places, or resources at home. maybe because it was more successful insecuring resources. i don't know. but it seemed to work. but i don't know i'd be comfortable sending out the wife & kids without me.
 
Yep. Either way you are well out of the grey man mode and stick out like a sore thumb.

OT - is 'grey man' a Wheel of Time reference, or does the phrase have an older origin?

I live more-or-less in the country, but only about 10 miles from the edge of a city/metro area with 1.5 million people in it. I regularly make trips there to see friends, and if I were in the city when the SHTF, I would probably bug out immediately. I'd do a risk assessment on whether I had time to find any nearby friends before things got too hairy. I'd stick with the car as long as possible, and be prepared to abandon it if necessary, placing a priority on getting across one of the few bridges over the huge river/lake that may wind up between me and home before doing so.

There is potentially a lot of urban area between me and home, depending on what part of the city I was in at the time. I believe that getting out, even if it means putting me on a roundabout route to home, would be better than staying. I think my city would have a little longer of a grace period than average before people turned nasty, but I would not want to stick around to test that.
 
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