Which came first?

[bodog]

The public showing of the prototype of the ZT 0999 or the Kevin John Venom Attacker?

The only thing I can find for sure is that the ZT 0999 prototypes debuted in June, 2015 and the Kevin John Venom Attacker hit the marketplace in full production runs for sure in December, 2015. Both have solid reviews for machining tolerances and all that. It'd be jacked up if KJ stole the carbon fiber blade insert idea but if they did they went from no idea at all to seeing the ZT 0999 in June to working up designs, working up the CAD codes, getting all the tooling worked up, gathering the materials, working up prototypes, getting them approved, and getting enough made to drop as a full production piece, getting them sent through whatever kind of QC they have, getting all the packaging made, and then getting them sent to their distributors, all within 6 months. That's moving quickly, to say the least. And all reports are that it's a knife on par with Custom Knife Factory, Reate, etc (same factories probably make them all), most ZT's as far as quality materials and workmanship, etc.

All this to say that if Kevin John stole that idea (and based on their history I'd assume they did but I don't know), they went from 0-100 mph very fast. Maybe it wouldn't be a bad thing for a big name company like Gerber to contract Kevin John as the maker of their knives as long as the contract keeps Kevin John from making any kind of "after hours" knives. Gerber's quality would skyrocket, it would probably earn the respect it once had as a producer of high quality knives, it'd stop KJ from producing knives with stolen design ideas, and there would be a new player in the high quality knife world. There could be a budget line and a premium line, like Kershaw and Zero Tolerance. Gerber already has in roads to most any place that sells knives at all, Walmart, Target, Bass Pro, Cabela's, etc.

Now if KJ DIDN'T steal the idea and they had the idea first and had all of it tooled up and prototypes made before ZT did, that'd be a different story.

 

[Quiet]

You know that "Kevin John" isn't a real knife designer, right?

 

[bodog]

You know that "Kevin John" isn't a real knife designer, right?

Kevin John as a specific company, or if they themselves contract their work out to other factories then Gerber should contract THOSE factories. I tried to be clear but I guess not, when I'd say Kevin John and "they" interchangeably. Even if they contracted most of the staff of Kevin John, the designers, the machinists, etc. Or if it's a piecemeal thing thing bring it together under the Gerber name. And not necessarily Gerber, either. Just trying to keep it all focused by using specific names. Typing "Kevin John" or "KJ" alone is a lot easier than trying to type "Kevin John Knife Factory and any associated designers and machinists." Kind of like saying Spyderco instead of "Spyderco Knife Company and all associated designers and machining factories they already use."

Still wondering which was designed first, the ZT 0999 or Kevin John Venom Attacker. If it was ZT then someone should really look at contracting Kevin John or even trying to buy them out and let them be a subsidiary company making original, high quality designs with a known name like Gerber (not necessarily Gerber).

 

[marcinek]

It'd be jacked up if KJ stole the carbon fiber blade insert idea ....

Stole it from who? The Marifone Matrix or Kestrel? The Microtech Troodon with a carbon fiber insert? Browning's Hell's Canyon Speed fixed blade?

I'm no KJ fan at all, but maybe this whole claim would make some sense if you could establish who came up with the carbon fiber blade insert idea, and THEN started making implications about who stole from who.

 

[Armadew]

You're joking, right?

 

[bodog]

Stole it from who? The Marifone Matrix or Kestrel? The Microtech Troodon with a carbon fiber insert? Browning's Hell's Canyon Speed fixed blade?

I'm no KJ fan at all, but maybe this whole claim would make some sense if you could establish who came up with the carbon fiber blade insert idea, and THEN started making implications about who stole from who.

Fair enough. Are you implying ZT wasn't the original designer of that feature? I kind of assumed they were. Who is?

Still, though, if KJ ramped up production that quickly then an enterprising company could probably wrangle that into something good.

 

[bodog]

You're joking, right?

Why would I be joking. Most reviews about the quality of KJ knives are really pretty good. Suggesting that a company work out a deal with them to start making original designs under a known name and knock off making knock offs doesn't seem silly to me. It actually makes a lot of sense, especially if they're capable of ramping up production of a solid knife within 6 months, if that was the case.

 

[HappyDaddy]

Fair enough. Are you implying ZT wasn't the original designer of that feature? I kind of assumed they were. Who is?

Still, though, if KJ ramped up production that quickly then an enterprising company could probably wrangle that into something good.

Do you have a contract with KJ for a finder's fee when his "company" is acquired?

 

[Quiet]

Why would I be joking. Most reviews about KJ are really pretty good. Suggesting that a company work out a deal with them to start making original designs under a known name and knock off making knock offs doesn't seem silly to me. It actually makes a lot of sense, especially if they're capable of ramping up production of a solid knife within 6 months, if that was the case.

Let's be clear. "Most reviews" are pretty good, because they are coming from Youtubers who are ok with straight up counterfeiting and Chinese companies who steal American designs. That's what "Kevin John" is known for after all, making knockoff CRK and Strider knives. Out and out copying the designs of others. So, the idea that you think that they would have designed something and ZT somehow copied it are hilarious, if I'm being honest.

 

[Armadew]

Why would you want to legitimize a company based on theft? I hope their company fades away into oblivion.

 

[bodog]

Let's be clear. "Most reviews" are pretty good, because they are coming from Youtubers who are ok with straight up counterfeiting and Chinese companies who steal American designs. That's what "Kevin John" is known for after all, making knockoff CRK and Strider knives. Out and out copying the designs of others. So, the idea that you think that they would have designed something and ZT somehow copied it are hilarious, if I'm being honest.

Dude, stop. You need to reread my posts if you think I said ZT stole that. It's about whether KJ could ramp up production that fast and if they could be bought and subsequently brought under control by a legitimate company.

Adai was known for doing the same thing as KJ and they realized that their machining and original designs were as good as anything else on the market so they changed names and started selling knives with the name Reate on them.

 

[marcinek]

Let's be clear. "Most reviews" are pretty good, because they are coming from Youtubers who are ok with straight up counterfeiting and Chinese companies who steal American designs. That's what "Kevin John" is known for after all, making knockoff CRK and Strider knives. Out and out copying the designs of others. So, the idea that you think that they would have designed something and ZT somehow copied it are hilarious, if I'm being honest.

Precisely. Anyone who has been paying any attention here knows that that "Kevin John" does is steal ideas and technology. Its what they do.

The only significant common design element among the knives in question is the carbon fiber insert, as bodog said.

So if KJ stole it (and that's a very small "if"), then who did they steal it from? Unless ZT invented the idea, then by bodog's arguments, they are as guilty as KJ.

It certainly would be nice if we were given a history of its use.

 

[marcinek]

Adai was known for doing the same thing as KJ and they realized that their machining and original designs were as good as anything else on the market so they changed names and started selling knives with the name Reate on them.

Are you accusing Reate of theft now? You seem to be fighting on several fronts in this thread, and I don't see it getting anywhere.

So who invented the carbon fiber blade insert idea?

 

[Armadew]

I never new Reate were thieves before. Do you have more details on that?

 

[PURPLEDC]

I see no real similarities between the two knives. Kai did a floating inset piece of carbon. Kevin john did a standard glued inlay. Carbon fiber inlays have been being done for a couple decades now. But aside from both using carbon fiber, I cant see why anyone would think they are related. This seems more like a desperate attempt to continue the conversation of kai and clones.

 

[Hackenslash]

My guess would be that KJ was able to produce the Vemon Attacker so quickly because they somehow had access to schematics. It's a long stretch to produce a knock-off from viewing or handling a prototype and actually manufacturing the clone. Usually the clone/counterfeit manufacturers will purchase legit production knives and reverse engineer them. That wouldn't have been possible with the 0999 which was only available until a couple of weeks ago. Whether leaked, stolen or hacked, I bet somehow an engineering diagram of the 0999 got out. That's too complex of a design to copy on the fly.

I can't believe that KJ has the cajones to make these rip offs and call them "Kevin John Sebenza" or "Kevin John Strider SNG". That's one of the vilest forms of theft...not just of a design, but of even the name too! As if these clones are a viable alternative or something :barf:.

 

[bodog]

Are you accusing Reate of theft now? You seem to be fighting on several fronts in this thread, and I don't see it getting anywhere.

So who invented the carbon fiber blade insert idea?

Don't know. I thought ZT did. Yes, Reate used to be Adai. Are you saying Adai didn't make counterfeit knives in the past?

 

[bodog]

My guess would be that KJ was able to produce the Vemon Attacker so quickly because they somehow had access to schematics. It's a long stretch to produce a knock-off from viewing or handling a prototype and actually manufacturing the clone. Usually the clone/counterfeit manufacturers will purchase legit production knives and reverse engineer them. That wouldn't have been possible with the 0999 which was only available until a couple of weeks ago. Whether leaked, stolen or hacked, I bet somehow an engineering diagram of the 0999 got out. That's too complex of a design to copy on the fly.

I can't believe that KJ has the cajones to make these rip offs and call them "Kevin John Sebenza" or "Kevin John Strider SNG". That's one of the vilest forms of theft...not just of a design, but of even the name too! As if these clones are a viable alternative or something :barf:.

I was wondering the same thing, if there was some legitimate corporate espionage or something. That's pretty far out there, though.

 

[marcinek]

Don't know. I thought ZT did. Yes, Reate used to be Adai. Are you saying Adai didn't make counterfeit knives in the past?

So you are saying KJ stole the idea from ZT, but you have no idea if ZT was the first to come up with it. So why aren't you accusing ZT of stealing it too? I mean, I know people love ZT and hate KJ, but that seems a bit hypocritical.

Maybe you should look into who came up with the idea. A rudimentary Google search came up with many knives with carbon fiber inserts in the blade.

 

[PURPLEDC]

Don't know. I thought ZT did. Yes, Reate used to be Adai. Are you saying Adai didn't make counterfeit knives in the past?

The carbon fiber insert has been a thing for a couple decades. I don't know who started it but I know tony marfione made it popular and has been doing C/F inlays for many years.