Which came first?

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bodog said:
I was wondering the same thing, if there was some legitimate corporate espionage or something. That's pretty far out there, though.
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So now who are you accusing of corporate espionage???

This thread is a hot mess of wild speculation.

Maybe some facts to back up some of these claims would be helpful. Or maybe a less specific accusation, like "I think KJ is bad."
 
marcinek said:
So you are saying KJ stole the idea from ZT, but you have no idea if ZT was the first to come up with it. So why aren't you accusing ZT of stealing it too? I mean, I know people love ZT and hate KJ, but that seems a bit hypocritical.

Maybe you should look into who came up with the idea. A rudimentary Google search came up with many knives with carbon fiber inserts in the blade.
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Well, i thought ZT came up with the idea and presupposed my entire suggestion on the idea that KJ could go from initially seeing something they wanted to steal up to distribution within 6 months. If that's not the case then I don't care because the presupposition was wrong. If ZT stole the idea then they stole the idea. I'm not going into that for obvious reasons that I know you know about.
 
bodog said:
Don't know. I thought ZT did. Yes, Reate used to be Adai. Are you saying Adai didn't make counterfeit knives in the past?
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Do you have evidence that Reate came from Adai?

The only thing I know that Reate might be accused of would be unauthorized use of the LionSteel Rotolok on the very earliest version of the District 9. Those knives weren't even sold as "Reates" (I'm not sure if Reate actually existed as a business entity at the time), but instead sold under the name DistrictNine Knives. After these early models, they've switched to a standard or 45ACP shell casing over-travel protector. As far as I'm concerned, they made a mistake and fixed it. At least it was a minor mistake on an original design of a knife. Reate has gone on to bring awesome original designs for themselves and several other makers like Todd Begg and Liong Mah.
 
PURPLEDC said:
The carbon fiber insert has been a thing for a couple decades. I don't know who started it but I know tony marfione made it popular and has been doing C/F inlays for many years.
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So bodog is claiming ZT stole the idea? Really, I can't follow what he is getting at here. Is that it?
 
The KJ Attacker and the ZT 0999 really bear no major resemblance. If anything it's a weird copy of a MIcrotech SOCOM Bravo mixed with a CMTX something or another.

The carbonfiber blade inlay itself is nothing new. That's been a thing on Microtechs for a while now. CF, MOP, etc blade inlays have been done before. What makes the 0999 inlay unique is the floating appearance.


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bodog said:
Well, i thought ZT came up with the idea and presupposed my entire suggestion on the idea that KJ could go from initially seeing something they wanted to steal up to distribution within 6 months. If that's not the case then I don't care because the presupposition was wrong. If ZT stole the idea then they stole the idea. I'm not going into that for obvious reasons that I know you know about.
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Know, I don't know what your "obvious reasons" are. I don't follow everything you say that closely.

So tell us....you came in here, accused KJ of ripping off ZT and "their" carbon fiber blade insert idea, with no evidence whatsoever it was "thiers", and now that it has be established that it isn't, you are refusing to comment further about ZT doing the same thing for "obvious reasons"?!?

Really, you cant pick and choose you you accuse of theft. Maybe you should ask the mods to shut this down before it further degenerates.
 
marcinek said:
Nice. A link that is merely a front for (and full of links to) A****press.

Hardly backing up your claims with that one.
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How about straight from Reate on BF? Someone came in, hired the designer that was the designer for A dai clone knives, and threw together a new brand using factories already making knives for A dai, etc.

So adai designer and adai factories but new brand, Reate

http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/s...ing-from-china-Reate-custom-knives-inc/page13

And as far as I can tell since reate started sending knives out adai stopped. I don't keep up with it too much but it's not hard to see what happened. Other people who DO keep up with that, for whatever reason they do it, have shown it and even the guy who posts under the knifemaker name "Reate" here on BF had at the very least stated his designer was the one "designing" the clones. That probably means it's just the CAD guy who reverse engineered all of those clones and then created the plans to clone them started designing his own. Good. A thief comes to the right side. Now if they'd shed light on how it all operates over in China that'd be helpful for the rest of us. Like an ex-hacker going to work for a cyber security firm.
 
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marcinek said:
So now who are you accusing of corporate espionage???

This thread is a hot mess of wild speculation.

Maybe some facts to back up some of these claims would be helpful. Or maybe a less specific accusation, like "I think KJ is bad."
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There is some truth to the adai/reate connection. David has tip toed around the subject and I believe said a dai is someone who did cnc programming for him but is no longer with the company. Oddly enough adai came before reate so I don't know how that would have worked. I don't really believe that as I have seen sterile horizons that were purchased on aliexpress before they even had the name reate and they were sold as adai. The first person to review the original horizon I believe was in Russia and was referring to it as an adai knife. If you have heard me discussing clone companies that went on to become legitimate companies making original designs that is usually who I am referencing. I just figured what is the point of actually making a huge issue out of it on a forum. And the information is hard to piece together. The best physical evidence came a few years ago when there was a lot less names in the Chinese high end knife market. At that time reate and adai were being manufactured at the same time and parts were many times interchangeable. In fact when Reate first marketed their knives here in the states the first runs actually had the same pivot from the copy of the koordinal by Dmitry sinkevich. And that pivot was actually a direct rip off of the pivot in the 0454 based on that same sinkevich design. Not just similar looking but you could actually take the whole pivot assembly from one knife and put it in the other along with the bearing race washers. Now 15 other names use that same system and its hard to tell if they are all made in the same place or if they just all use a common part maker. But even on ali express a few years ago the sellers would refer to adai when selling the horizon A and B.
 
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marcinek said:
OK. So what designs are Reate stealing? And if you are going to accuse them of it, why not ZT?

I don't get it.
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Because if ZT was doing that and I brought it up then it'd just be continuing an argument from another thread. Don't feel like doing that. I wanted to touch on someone co-opting KJ and getting them to stop making clones and focus only on original designs like Reate did. One major counterfeiter down. Several more to go.
 
Hackenslash said:
Do you have evidence that Reate came from Adai?

The only thing I know that Reate might be accused of would be unauthorized use of the LionSteel Rotolok on the very earliest version of the District 9. Those knives weren't even sold as "Reates" (I'm not sure if Reate actually existed as a business entity at the time), but instead sold under the name DistrictNine Knives. After these early models, they've switched to a standard or 45ACP shell casing over-travel protector. As far as I'm concerned, they made a mistake and fixed it. At least it was a minor mistake on an original design of a knife. Reate has gone on to bring awesome original designs for themselves and several other makers like Todd Begg and Liong Mah.
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Reate existed. They got their start on aliexpress. But they were met with much skepticism. District 9 was another aliexpress brand until they started having reate make their knives. But even the district 9 knives were only slightly modified versions of reate models. I personally feel reate is/was/still is adai. Similar to how ESP guitars in japan makes replicas of Gibson guitars for its domestic market and Europe yet they cant sell those guitars in the states because of trademark.
 
PURPLEDC said:
There is some truth to the adai/reate connection. ...
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Thanks. Its nice to hear some actual history/facts rather than just wild accusations of theft and corporate espionage and "obvious reasons."

Whole thread reeks of ulterior motives and collateral damage to me. I am outta here before I get caught up in it! :eek:

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bodog said:
Because if ZT was doing that and I brought it up then it'd just be continuing an argument from another thread. Don't feel like doing that. I wanted to touch on someone co-opting KJ and getting them to stop making clones and focus only on original designs like Reate did. One major counterfeiter down. Several more to go.
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But we knew about KJ. All you did here was point out that ZT did the same thing as KJ did. I have no idea if that was your intent.

Good day.
 
Isn't KJ known for outright cloning high end knives? we should be happy the venom attacker isn't an outright copy of the 0999.
 
bodog said:
Dude, stop. You need to reread my posts if you think I said ZT stole that. It's about whether KJ could ramp up production that fast and if they could be bought and subsequently brought under control by a legitimate company.

Adai was known for doing the same thing as KJ and they realized that their machining and original designs were as good as anything else on the market so they changed names and started selling knives with the name Reate on them.
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Dude stop? No, how about you stop in your efforts at giving legitimacy to counterfeiters? What are you even talking about? You act as though people are robots who can simply be reassigned. Criminy. "Units KM-01 through 12, report to the Gerber facility for your new assignment." Ridiculous.
 
Quiet said:
Dude stop? No, how about you stop in your efforts at giving legitimacy to counterfeiters? What are you even talking about? You act as though people are robots who can simply be reassigned. Criminy. "Units KM-01 through 12, report to the Gerber facility for your new assignment." Ridiculous.
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Are you even reading any of this thread? My God, man, I've seen more comprehension in a three year old. You are totally disregarding anything that might be a decent discussion in favor of simple, fairly moronic attacks. Are you incapable of facing reality and the fact that these companies and issues exist? Or are you just willfully blind? Or are you so intent on causing controversy that you'll take a legitimate issue and turn it into an argument just because you know you can?

If you have nothing to add (or in this case if your only goal is to start crap) then shut the hell up and leave the thread alone. The ONLY possible legitimacy given to ANY kind of counterfeiter is the Reate issue and it's definitely NOT me that's given them legitimacy. People keep throwing out side issues in that really have no place here. You, for example, are making crap up just to derail the thread. Marcinek, for example, is trying to add in some conspiracy that some ulterior motive is the base of the thread. Some of you guys are really pretty sad and pathetic. Seriously. I brought up how some of these Chinese companies may be able to add value to the knife world by being co-opted and their talents, labor, and machinery used to add more selection in the knife world WITHOUT resorting to counterfeiting. I used the example of the Kevin John Venom Attacker and the ZT 0999 and carbon fiber inserts. I was educated that that feature has been around for awhile and if KJ copied it then ZT did too and that ZT is as bad as KJ for doing it. It wasn't me that said that, hell, I thought ZT created the damn idea. Personally I think it's kind of a stupid idea but I guess people like it. Whatever. Not the point.

The point is if these Chinese companies are so able to quickly design, tool up, and produce high quality knives, which in all honesty they do as evidenced by Reate and the reviews that make it blatantly clear on youtube, et al, then they CAN offer something, even if it means a knife company with money absolutely can buy them out. Or at least become a controlling stock holder. Seems alot freaking better than letting them run around stabbing at the soft underbelly of the knife world on alibaba or dhgate.
 
bodog said:
Are you even reading any of this thread? My God, man, I've seen more comprehension in a three year old. You are totally disregarding anything that might be a decent discussion in favor of simple, fairly moronic attacks. Are you incapable of facing reality and the fact that these companies and issues exist? Or are you just willfully blind? Or are you so intent on causing controversy that you'll take a legitimate issue and turn it into an argument just because you know you can?

If you have nothing to add (or in this case if your only goal is to start crap) then shut the hell up and leave the thread alone. The ONLY possible legitimacy given to ANY kind of counterfeiter is the Reate issue and it's definitely NOT me that's given them legitimacy. People keep throwing out side issues in that really have no place here. You, for example, are making crap up just to derail the thread. Marcinek, for example, is trying to add in some conspiracy that some ulterior motive is the base of the thread. Some of you guys are really pretty sad and pathetic. Seriously. I brought up how some of these Chinese companies may be able to add value to the knife world by being co-opted and their talents, labor, and machinery used to add more selection in the knife world WITHOUT resorting to counterfeiting. I used the example of the Kevin John Venom Attacker and the ZT 0999 and carbon fiber inserts. I was educated that that feature has been around for awhile and if KJ copied it then ZT did too and that ZT is as bad as KJ for doing it. It wasn't me that said that, hell, I thought ZT created the damn idea. Personally I think it's kind of a stupid idea but I guess people like it. Whatever. Not the point.

The point is if these Chinese companies are so able to quickly design, tool up, and produce high quality knives, which in all honesty they do as evidenced by Reate and the reviews that make it blatantly clear on youtube, et al, then they CAN offer something, even if it means a knife company with money absolutely can buy them out. Or at least become a controlling stock holder. Seems alot freaking better than letting them run around stabbing at the soft underbelly of the knife world on alibaba or dhgate.
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Yeah, your reading and critical thinking skills are poor, so I'm done wasting my time here.

Also, sad and pathetic? Well, it could be worse, I suppose. We could just be constantly referring to a dark and mysterious super SPEC OPS DELTA SEAL Commando background like you do. I mean, sad and pathetic? Doesn't get much more sad and pathetic than that. :)
 
This is about a carbon fiber insert? I care about who invented the carbon fiber blade insert as much as I care about who invented the fake gem encrusted pewter handled dagger. Not. At. All.


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