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Which came first?

Discussion in 'General Knife Discussion' started by bodog, Dec 19, 2016.

  1. Reignman

    Reignman

    Oct 18, 2012
    Warren Thomas
     
  2. Esav Benyamin

    Esav Benyamin MidniteSuperMod

    Apr 6, 2000
    Wow. "Kevin John" is bad. bodog said "Kevin John" so bodog is bad. Did you guys (marcinek) notice this is General Knife not Whine & Cheese?

    What do you think about what bodog was really asking? If these counterfeiters are so expert, shouldn't we encourage or hire them to go legit, like Reate?
     
  3. Reignman

    Reignman

    Oct 18, 2012
    Sadly, I've owned a microtech counterfeit DOC. A mutual friend said he had a knife with some guys name he butchered but seemed like he intended to say Marfione... and a dagger.
    He wanted $50 bucks for it... I told him it may be worth more etc he insisted as he found it...

    That being said, its amazing just how well constructed the knife/grinds etc were. If you hadn't handled/known otherwise you could easily be impressed with "Microtechs" quality from the counterfeit. Sure, there are horribly terrible quality counterfeits and then the KJ stuff which sadly is pretty damn well made.

    I'll stick to the real thing.
     
  4. PG5768

    PG5768

    Apr 28, 2008
    That's some despicable thievery right there if that's the case. Not even in the same league as some wishy-washy "who's knife looks kinda like some one else's knife" being made out to be thievery.
     
  5. DrFish

    DrFish

    532
    Nov 18, 2001
    Just to be clear about what knives we're talking about.

    ZT 0999

    [​IMG]

    Kevin John Venom Attacker

    [​IMG]

    To me it looks nothing like the ZT. More like a mangled mashup of:

    [​IMG]

    And

    [​IMG]



    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
     
  6. PG5768

    PG5768

    Apr 28, 2008
    Thanks Doc. Those pics make the OP's original thesis even more tenuous and suspect. :rolleyes:
     
  7. kneedeep

    kneedeep

    Jan 28, 2007
    I suspect it would be difficult to truly legitimize any company that started off by counterfeiting/cloning since they would well know could always make more money with ghost production going out the back door while they are sending genuine items out the front door. This is already a huge problem in China, and not just in the knife industry.

    Bodog seems to have a penchant for casually stating ZT stole IP at every opportunity, so it is not surprising that people's feathers get ruffled.

    If decorative carbon fiber inlays on blades were actually patentable, I doubt it would be defensible since inlays have existed in one form or another in knives and other crafts for a very long time. Its application to a knife blade is obvious, so saying it was a stolen idea is silly. In the case of the 0999, I don't know technically if you could call it an inlay since the channel and cutouts give it a floating appearance. The final production version has the float and a metal inlay in the carbon fiber which actually helps show the difference. So saying it is a stolen idea is pretty weak.

    [edit: corrected stupid autocorrection of bodog.]
     
    Last edited: Dec 20, 2016
  8. mqqn

    mqqn Gold Member Gold Member

    Nov 12, 2009
    From looking at the knives in question, the KJ knife appears to have a fuller filled with CF, whereas the ZT has a hole that perforates the blade with a "floating" CF insert placed in the center of the hole.

    Aside from both knives having an unusual treatment on the blade, specifically the CF placed on the blade, I see nothing remotely similar that would even beg the question of which came first.

    If the original point was that KJ stole a design from ZT, then I don't think it was the 999 that was the source, there are similarities to other ZT knives in the KJ knife, but nothing I would go so far as to say was a stolen design.

    If the original point was that ZT stole the design from KJ, then I would again say there are not enough similarities in the knives to make the comparison valid.

    If the original point was to bring attention to KJ - then at least this was accomplished.

    best

    mqqn
     
  9. chester22

    chester22

    Feb 1, 2012
    My problem with legitimacy in these China Clone Factories is who will hold them accountable for making sure they're Using the said materials used and are made in an ethical way. Like saying it's M390 but use AUS8... They don't follow the same rules and regulations we do. Recently CRKT had S30V Knives made and then they ended up being 1075 carbon steel.
     
  10. bodog

    bodog Banned BANNED

    Dec 15, 2013
    The blade and handle shapes look very similar. Cosmetics are different, as are some novelties between the two. I think the blades actually look very similar except for a slight drop on the KJ that the 0999 doesn't have. Even the holes cut for the carbon fiber look very similar. The main difference between the two is that on the 0999 the carbon fiber is attached with some kind of metal backing, maybe brazed onto the blade and/or glued onto the CF whereas on the KJ it looks press fit or something. Don't know unless someone wants to buy one and rip the carbon fiber out of the blades. And I'm pretty sure if those guys can pull off the decepticon (which I personally find slightly ugly) they could probably pull off what ZT did with the 0999 handles. Neither good nor bad, but it IS a testament that they can be impressive in their own right if they stopped counterfeiting. Copying designs and design cues isn't as bad or as uncommon as people think as evidenced here with the CF inserted in the blade idea.
     
  11. bodog

    bodog Banned BANNED

    Dec 15, 2013
    Fair but there are a lot of people going to these types of factories for "mid-tech" work and trust them. All that REALLY needs to be done is strict oversight until reliability and trust are established. And of course stopping the whole counterfeiting thing.
     
    Last edited: Dec 19, 2016
  12. marcinek

    marcinek

    Jan 9, 2007
    I don't know what he was asking. As I said before, we all know KJ makes their living through lifting other makers' stuff. Here it the carbon fiber insert seems to be the crux. No doubt KJ didn't invent that concept. So, yeah, they lifted it from somebody.

    My question is "Did ZT invent it?" It appears not. Then why not accuse them of stealing the idea too? What's good for the goose is good for the gander. If you are going to bust KJ for it, you gotta bust ZT. And that has nothing to do with it being KJ or ZT or bodog, it has to do with being consistent.

    As far as Reate, I don't see what designs/technology they are stealing (unless I missed something), so I don't have an issue with them.
     
  13. bodog

    bodog Banned BANNED

    Dec 15, 2013
    Then you missed the whole section about them changing from adai to Reate on purpose. Don't be obtuse.
     
  14. marcinek

    marcinek

    Jan 9, 2007
    So what is your point other than name calling?

    Is KJ bad?
    If yes, then why isn't ZT bad for doing the same thing?
    Or are they?

    Let me know....I'm "obtuse."
     
  15. PURPLEDC

    PURPLEDC

    Apr 4, 2007
    I think the issue is we put such an emphasis on not discussing brands like kevin john that people dont know what is fair game and what is just troll bait. I have beens saying for years that the approach to counterfeiters hasnt been working and that having these factories make originals or at least sanctioned authorized copies is a better way to put a positive spin on a topic often viewed negatively. Intead of trying to tell people they are garbage made products with inferior materials. Many will say to hire these factories is simply rewarding bad behavior.

    Either way when you get told to stfu enough times you start to understand that even mentioning certain names like kj is a forum equivalent of assault and the best case scenario is a locked thread. It usually ends with infractions. I think some of the more vocal people just see this as more of the same from the same person. You have to admit this forum is very anti clone. And even if the knife in question isnt a clone if the company that made it is actually known for making such knives it always ends the same way. Badly.

    No one who has been a member here for three years can open a thread with kevin john in the title and claim they didnt know they were opening a can of worms. And if worms are usually what you are known for posting it adds to the contempt. You know im the person here with the smallest moral compass when it comes to copies. But I like this place. And i like the people. So I dont open topics I know are going to insight a crap storm.
     
  16. Blues Bender

    Blues Bender Gold Member Gold Member

    Feb 27, 2014
    I'm so confused. It's like the OP was trying to make a point, but couldn't, so now he's trying to make a different point, and can't...

    Bodog, please explain to me the premise of this thread in a paragraph or less. I'm confident that I'm not the only person confused here.
     
  17. bodog

    bodog Banned BANNED

    Dec 15, 2013
    Don't know, go over and read the recently locked thread where it's already been discussed. I know you know which one I'm talking about. Not gonna rehash that. ZT is a respected brand. If you want to open a thread about that specific issue, go ahead. Post a poll, maybe something based directly from your last post. That's up to you. I said I'm not getting into it and your goading and picking isn't going to change that.
     
  18. marcinek

    marcinek

    Jan 9, 2007
    OK. I will make a clear definitive statement. I don't like KJ. They rip stuff off. I certainly appreciate any argument that backs that feeling up.

    But!

    What I see that happened here was that a argument was made for that point, but that argument also applies to ZT.

    An no one has attempted to fit those two together. And so it, to me, weakens the argument against KJ. Or makes one against ZT.

    Again, I have no idea if that was the whole point in the first place.

    Should have taken my own adviced and stayed out. Thanks, Esav. :mad::D
     
  19. greeenie

    greeenie

    Nov 27, 2012
    Pretty much sums up everything he posts about, I'm so confused by this thread and the last one that got locked down. Seems like all he does is slander companies for designs he sees as similar. I don't get it

    Sent from my SM-G935V using Tapatalk
     
  20. marcinek

    marcinek

    Jan 9, 2007
    You're not. Guess we are both "obtuse"? :D

    I may very well agree strongly with what bodog is saying...but I haven't the slightest idea what it is though! :confused:
     

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