Which steels can offer the best edge ret and be still sharpenable, in this situation?

[Sir Joe]

Hello guys,

I want to thank you for all the precious info which I was able to find on this forum. In few days I passed from 100% to 80% ignorant.
I have indeed capitulated on the 100+ pages of Ankerson's Edge Retention thread (even just a search for Elmax gave back 7 dense pages), but before that I have done a real marathon of threads-reading in the last week, to avoid asking you already answered things.
I have actually found threads talking exactly of the steels I am going to ask you, with valuable posts of @Ankerson, @Phil Wilson, and many of you.
But I was only able to narrow the choice. I have still some doubts left. Also because the OPs on those threads did not have my same needs.

I have seen that you always use to ask some things, so I came prepared:
-I want a folder (and it will be my first real knife, and my only one for a while. So I want it right)
-the ability to take and keep a very thin razor edge is priority N°1: I like when knifes cut like laser (like in Ankerson's videos), and I do not want to sharpen too often.
Of course I do not expect any knife to hold an edge forever. But some steels keep the edge longer than others, right? And than there is HT, HRC, Geometry...
-the steel should not be TOO difficult to sharpen, because I am not yet good at it and I think I should not learn with something like S110V or 10V.
Fyi I use a DMT Diafold coarse/fine and finish with ceramic files. If you think it is needed I am ready to go for a Spyderco Sharpener.
-stainless would be nice, but if carbon or semi stainless are the way to go, I am ok. I do not mind patina and spots. But keep in mind I am a gardener, so the knife WILL be in contact with soil, mud, wet, dirt. I will not be able to carefully clean and dry the pivot every single day. And I may forget the knife in the wet trousers from time to time.
-I will use the knife not intensively, and it will mostly slice (thick-paper sacks of cements, plastic bags of soil, flexible drainage plastic tube, plastic nets, some cardboard, cords).
-no torsion, no flexion, no stabbing, no chopping, no wood carving. Correct me if I am wrong, but all the steels which I will mention should have enough toughness not to worry for occasional light roughness (I refer to if there is some expanded clay mixed with the soil, or if I briefly gently hit the wall behind the drainage tube).
-hardness is important, I do not want to have the feeling that my knife is fragile. There may be occasional contact with hard surfaces and the edge should survive to that.
Anyway hardness should not be so high that I would hate my knife when I sharpen it.

So, there are the steels I am considering after the threads-reading marathon, and please let me know what you think:
M390: insane edge ret., still very tough, and not difficult to sharpen
M4: more edge retention than M390 (?) but less tough and less easy to sharpen (still not difficult). Possible rust problems.
Elmax: a bit more tough than M390 but a bit less edge ret. I suppose that in my case there is no reason to go for it if I can find M390, right?
CPM154: I am not sure about this. I got confused at one point with the comparisons with S30V and 154CM, so now I do not understand well how does CPM154 compare to M390 and Elmax in edge retention.
CPMS35VN: I also got lost on this. I think to understand that it is between CPM154 and S30V. It sounds ok to me, but, vs M390 and Elmax?
Here the steels which I am not considering (and the why). Still correct me if I am wrong:
S90V, 10V, S110V: would supposedly keep a better edge than M390 and M4 (?) but are a real pain in the A to sharpen.
CTS-204P or 20CV: should be more or less like M390, but I am not really sure. They are also not so easy to find, and, I think, not so cheap. So, do I really need them?
3 or 4V: I just did not understand enough of them. I know they are not stainless, like M4, but I ignore the differences and I cannot quantify which would be better for my needs.

So I would be VERY thankful if you could give me your opinions about which steel or steels (and in which HRC) should be better for me, and which Knife Companies are better at that steel (for example I read that some people are not happy with the Elmax of ZT).
And, I hope not to ask too much, but something which is really too difficult for me to chose alone is the geometry and grinding. It would be GREAT if you could give me some tips.
I personally like drop point so for example I would spontaneously prefer something like the Benchmade Nakamura over the Contego or the typical Spyderco. But I am more than willing to go for Contego or Spyderco or whatever else, if that would help the longterm laser edge. You tell me

It will be my pleasure to find the corresponding knife once all the rest will be clear, but of course if you have suggestions of specific knives you are welcome!
I am willing to spend max 150-250 Euro. And the knife should not have spring opening, assisted opening or similar (it is forbidden in Germany).

Thanks!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[mycough]

I have no suggestion but have fun in your search. That is what it is all about.
Russ

 

[Duane Sanders]

Yeah, good luck.

From what I read it sounds like you want this.

http://youtu.be/g6j5e-xGIqM

 

[bodog]

So you a knife thats easy to sharpen, keeps an edge forever, is tough enough to handle rough work when necessary, and it'd be nice not worry about the blade staining? That, my friend, is what they call unobtainium.

However, based on reality and what you cite you'll be doing, look at cpmd2 or PSF27. They're both pretty tough, can be taken thin, and hold a really good edge while also not being a bear to sharpen. It's also pretty stain resistant, but not up to the level of M390 or S90V. The reason I suggest the steel is that it's a pretty well rounded steel doing well in all categories without being poor in any.

If you're only really looking at production folding knives that are usually pretty easily available, then look for cruwear or m4.

If you want steel that will saw through that stuff you mentioned and you can leave out the requirement for easy sharpening, then look at S90V/S110V. There are several S110V knives on the market and spyderco is about to drop even more in S90V.

But since you mentioned keeping a fine edge versus a coarser edge then I'd probably look for cruwear from spyderco considering the totality of the circumstances: availability/relative ease of sharpening/toughness/fine edge retention/hard carbide content. And spyderco usually makes most of their blades thinner than other companies which is another requirement you listed.

I'd personally suggest that you work on getting a good sharpener first. Once you can resharpen your knives yourself your tastes may change completely and you'll have an expensive knife that sits there unused while you start looking at others and you'll find yourself going down a rabbit hole which is hard to stop. Get a cheap quality knife and a good sharpener like the edge pro or similar, practice, experiment, play around, and see what something like AUS8 or equivalent does for you. Then you can see what AUS8 does and does not do for you and you can make a more educated decision when it comes time to really start dropping money on knives and you won't be disappointed. That's advice I wish I'd heeded when I started my journey. I truly believe trying to understand what's happening at the edge and how to manipulate that edge is far more important than simply buying whatever steel someone else suggests. You'll be in a position to research and buy what YOU need rather than what works or sounds good to someone else. Everyone's needs are subjective but what happens at the edge is objective. Learn the objective stuff first and then tackle the subjective.

 

[NJBillK]

Strop more than sharpen.

And I don't think that your request sounds too reasonable, sorry to be a buzz kill.

The closest you might find would be a Benchmade in m2hss.

 

[TravisH]

Ease of sharpening is misleading and should not be a deciding factor.

There's really not that much difference in sharpening any of the 'super steels'. Sure, one or another may take more strokes or a few more minutes. But is your life soooo busy that you can't afford that? Especially to get the performance you want? Does an pro skier worry how easy it is to wax his skis?

As already mentioned, regularly 'hone' your knife by stropping or passing over a ceramic rod and you'll seldom have to 'sharpen'.

Get a good set of diamond stones and nothing will really be that 'hard' to sharpen.

Again, ease of sharpening should not be a deciding factor.

 

[pinnah]

I'd personally suggest that you work on getting a good sharpener first. Once you can resharpen your knives yourself your tastes may change completely and you'll have an expensive knife that sits there unused while you start looking at others and you'll find yourself going down a rabbit hole which is hard to stop. Get a cheap quality knife and a good sharpener like the edge pro or similar, practice, experiment, play around, and see what something like AUS8 or equivalent does for you. Then you can see what AUS8 does and does not do for you and you can make a more educated decision when it comes time to really start dropping money on knives and you won't be disappointed. That's advice I wish I'd heeded when I started my journey. I truly believe trying to understand what's happening at the edge and how to manipulate that edge is far more important than simply buying whatever steel someone else suggests. You'll be in a position to research and buy what YOU need rather than what works or sounds good to someone else. Everyone's needs are subjective but what happens at the edge is objective. Learn the objective stuff first and then tackle the subjective.

I completely agree with this.

The best "knife" I purchased was an inexpensive basic Lansky sharpening it. This is what helped me crack the code on sharpening, particularly raising a burr, honing and adjusting edge angles to suit different tasks. Now I free hand with much more confidence since I know that I'm trying to replicate what I learned.

This combined with an inexpensive knife that you can over sharpend with impunity. Great investment.

 

[The Mastiff]

Blade steels are more often steels made for a particular job in industry that has been re purposed for blade use.Steels are compromises between abrasive wear resistance, toughness and corrosion resistance as well as cost naturally. We talk about other things like "edge stability" but to keep it easy just look at the big ones at first.

Decide which attributes mean the most to you then give them a number value between 1 and 3. Ust the numbers once. You can't have toughness and wear resistance both being most important ( number 1 of course).

After you do that you can flesh it out further. It gets complicated enough so work on keeping it as simple as possible at first.

After you do this, and put a dollar value for cost then others can help you decide not only what steel(s) you should shoot for but which knife company and models are achievable and realistic.

Once you decide what you want in steels there are other things to look at such as lock type or tang type, scales, length, even colors if that is important to you.

First thing first. Decide what attributes you value. Ease of sharpening isn't on my list because with the proper sharpener it no longer becomes that important. The powder steels are generally easier to sharpen well than ingot steels and besides, they all fall to SiC, Diamonds, etc.

So, help us select the knives that are suitable for you, make a list and then make your decision.

joe

 

[Twindog]

You might want to consider a Benchmade Barrage in M390 is a good bet. It has a thin blade and edge profile and good steel.

-- or a Spyderco Paramilitary in S90V or other stainless steel with high wear resistance. It also has good blade and edge geometry.

Then I'd sharpen with a 30 dps edge and a 40 dps microbevel. The microbevel will add a bit stability to the edge without compromising slicing ability too much. And it will make the knife a breeze to sharpen and keep sharp.

 

[bodog]

Twindog, I sent you an email through the forum.

 

[Sir Joe]

First of all, thank you for the answers.
I suppose I did not express myself well.
Let me clarify things.

So you a knife thats easy to sharpen, keeps an edge forever, is tough enough to handle rough work when necessary, and it'd be nice not worry about the blade staining? That, my friend, is what they call unobtainium.
...you mentioned keeping a fine edge versus a coarser edge
...spyderco usually makes most of their blades thinner than other companies which is another requirement you listed.
...I'd personally suggest that you work on getting a good sharpener first.

Not forever, just long Like most supersteels do.

Anyway, isn't M390 easy to sharpen, relatively tough, stainless, and with a very good edge retention?
And Elmax too, just a bit tougher and with a bit less edge retention?
That is what I meant...

Toughness is not important.
I said toughness because I thought that "toughness" is responsible for edge stability, which also helps having the edge last longer.
And because it may happen that while I slice a tube I hit the wall behind and the blade moves the wrong way and there is a bit stress on the edge. And it would be cool if the steel could at least resist to that.
Is that really related to toughness? And if so, is a huge toughness needed for that? Or is that of any supersteel (also the non stainless ones) enough?

Could you elaborate this of the fine vs coarse edge? I am not sure to understand. I had in mind thin edge. Not sure what I wrote (now some is edited).

The thinner blade is not necessarily a requirement. But my understanding was that a thinner blade (see Spyderco) would keep the edge longer. I am not even sure that I understood well.

I have a DMT Diafold coarse/fine, and two Lansky ceramic files (black and white, mid and fine).
I am willing to buy a Spyderco Sharpener if needed. Also because I have quite lot of shears to sharpen now, and other tools, and sharpening with a diafold is more difficult and slower than with a bigger sharpening system.
Do you think I really need to buy the diamond triangles for the Spyderco Sharpener? Or are the included allumina enough?

Ease of sharpening is misleading and should not be a deciding factor.
But is your life soooo busy that you can't afford that?

You are right, I have corrected the post.
I only meant that I am not sure that while still learning to sharp I should go for S110V or 10V, which even people who have much more experience than me define as "difficult".
But if you guys tell me that with a Spyderco Sharpener I can sharpen without any problem in no much time a S110 or 10V, and if you think these are the steels I should go for, I will go for them.
I know I may have given the impression that I am just lazy. It is not so. I am lazy, and I tend to procrastinate, but I do take care of my tools. I just have LOT of them.
I have ON ME, every day: a pruner, a saw, a little knife with sort of karambit blade for cleaning cuts on trees, a very little cheap knife for dirty jobs, a shear (carbon), a snipper (carbon), and now I will have a LM Surge (not the most rust proof MT) and this new Knife.
Then I also regularly use a long reach pruner, a long hedge shear, a short hedge shear, a grass shear, two weeders, and a few extra shears and pruners I use sometimes.
And soon a little Mattock and a little planting hoe.
I must regularly clean, oil and sharpen all of them, at least once a week. Some of them I should every day (I do not).
I live alone, I come back home tired and not always in the best mood, I must buy, cook, eat, clean, learn, take care of my body, have some fun.
Yes, my life is busy

Decide which attributes mean the most to you then give them a number value between 1 and 3. Ust the numbers once. You can't have toughness and wear resistance both being most important ( number 1 of course).
So, help us select the knives that are suitable for you, make a list and then make your decision.

I am always happy to help people helping me!

1) Edge retention
2) corrosion resistance
3) toughness

For the knife, price is 150 to max 250 Euro.

I have put corrosion in 2 because I have read things like "yeah, you can clean a M4 blade but the pivot will rust", and I just KNOW that I will not clean the pivot every single day. There WILL be some soil, even mud, staying there for a while. I will forget it wet from time to time. It just happens.
I mean, if this of the corrosion is about stain on the blade, I do not care. I like a little patina, like the opinel does.
I just do not want the edge to be damaged by rust or the pivot to get rusted and stuck.
But if you tell me that any of those non stainless super steels (M4, D2, 3-4-10V) will not rust in the pivot, not even in my situation, I believe you.
That's why I made this thread. Because I know that I do not know.

So, if the corrosion thing, when talking of those supersteels, is only about patina, than it would be 1-3-2.
Which anyway makes me think: are not the stainless steels also tougher than non stainless?
So, it should be, 1-2-2?

I wrote above about edge stability. I thought it was related to toughness? Or is it related to hardness? I am not sure anymore.

You might want to consider a Benchmade Barrage in M390 is a good bet. It has a thin blade and edge profile and good steel.

-- or a Spyderco Paramilitary in S90V or other stainless steel with high wear resistance. It also has good blade and edge geometry.

Then I'd sharpen with a 30 dps edge and a 40 dps microbevel. The microbevel will add a bit stability to the edge without compromising slicing ability too much. And it will make the knife a breeze to sharpen and keep sharp.

The Barrage is assisted opening. Forbidden here.
The two Benchmade I was liking (among what I can pay) are Nakamura (it comes in M390 or S90V, which one is better?) and Contego (M4).
Contego's blade is thicker but its geometry seems to be thinner in the angle. I can't see it well from the picture.
I like Namamura more but the Contego is ok, and the carbide thing can be handy.
Valet is ok but does not "talk" to me.
I did not have time to browse the Spyderco offers, I also wanted to have the ideas more defined about steel first.

I understand what you mean with 40 and 30. Thanks

 

[JR88FAN]

The whole ease of sharpening thing needs to go out the window.....

That's more you then the steel.

I am going to recommend this family of steels for what your really difficult requirements are:

CPM20CV/M390/CTS-204P

First.
About as corrosion resistant as you will find (approaching 20% Chromium)
Second:
Insane edge retention, with a capital I....
Third:
Tough enough for what you will do with it. (I have beat on this steal harder then you will)
Fourth:
Did I mention insane edge retention?!

 

[Sir Joe]

Man, why would my requirements be difficult, if you can find with ease 3 steels which do all that with 0 problem?

Or would they be a pain to sharpen? (EDIT: ok, out of the window)

What about M4? In what would it be "better" and "worse" than that triad?

 

[JR88FAN]

Man, why would my requirements be difficult, if you can find with ease 3 steels which do all that with 0 problem?

Or would they be a pain to sharpen?

What about M4? In what would it be "better" and "worse" than that triad?

M4 is a really good steel.
I have only used it on a Spyderco GB, but used that knife a ton.

One of your main "want's" was corrosion resistance, and M4 is not a good steel if that is very important.
In terms of "toughness" it is "tougher then the trio, but you have to ask yourself if that toughness is more important than the edge retention vs say CPM20CV?

It's night and day.....

Ease of sharpening? Again, that's you. It's been a long time since I could say that I found one steel to be much harder to sharpen then another....

If toughness is a at the top of your list, I would tell you to go 3V...
It's 3rd on your list, and some chopping and a little prying will have no effect on 20CV and the family.

 

[Sir Joe]

No, toughness is not important. As said, only the necessary for edge stability. Definitely not vs edge retention, ever.
But you mention only CTS-20CV.
What about edge retention vs M390?

I am confused anyway. I thought that M4 was harder than M390. How can it also be tougher?

I am searching for 20CV, not easy to find here in Germany. At least I did not find anything by searching for "kind of steel" in the few shops which allow that.
I should know specific models of knifes and try to search for them.
But I see that the 204P is much more expensive than M390, so I suppose 20CV would not be less.
M390 on the other side can be found and I can pay it, although on the higher limit of my budget.

 

[JR88FAN]

M4 is inferior to M390 in edge retention, as long as all things are equal in terms of heat treat....

Honestly, I think you would be happy with something like CPM-154.
The key is to maintain that edge, and a strop would go a long way in doing that....

I am currently using CPM-154, I am not going to tell you how much I have beat it up, but I havd only needed to strop it twice in the past 3 weeks that I have been using this current knife. (I have used CPM-154 more than any other steel)

I just used it to pull a ton of very tough staples today, so the tip will now need a little work on the stones....!!

Back to the point.
The major difference you will notice (as an EDC blade) between CPM-154/M4/3V vs 20CV/M390/204P is that the latter will hold their FINE edge significantly longer.

 

[TravisH]

The Spyderco Sharpmaker's standard rods will 'maintain' sharp edges but you'll need the Diamond or CBN to repair/restore/reprofile dull or damaged edges.

I use the SM's Medium rods to maintain the edges of my Manix2 S110V, Native S90V, and Delica ZDP189. Only takes about a dozen strokes after my typical day's usage to hone the edges.

My Delica ZDP came with slightly uneven bevels. I used the SM's CBN rods to reprofile the Delica ZDP to 30° inclusive with a 40° micro bevel. Took about 15 minutes. Did it while watching TV.

I also have a DMT Deluxe Aligner system with diamond stones from XC to EEF for more serious work.

Since you already have DMT Diafold and Lansky ceramic tods, use them to see how well they work. If you're not happy with their performance then consider upgrading to a system like the Sharpmaker or DMT Aligner.

 

[JR88FAN]

The Spyderco Sharpmaker's standard rods will 'maintain' sharp edges but you'll need the Diamond or CBN to repair/restore/reprofile dull or damaged edges.

I use the SM's Medium rods to maintain the edges of my Manix2 S110V, Native S90V, and Delica ZDP189. Only takes about a dozen strokes after my typical day's usage to hone the edges.

My Delica ZDP came with slightly uneven bevels. I used the SM's CBN rods to reprofile the Delica ZDP to 30° inclusive with a 40° micro bevel. Took about 15 minutes. Did it while watching TV.

I also have a DMT Deluxe Aligner system with diamond stones from XC to EEF for more serious work.

Since you already have DMT Diafold and Lansky ceramic tods, use them to see how well they work. If you're not happy with their performance then consider upgrading to a system like the Sharpmaker or DMT Aligner.

I would just skip the SM and go straight to whet/bench stones....

Once you figure it out, what you can fix and how easily has no limits, just how good you are. (That comes with practice)
Angles become irrelevant, you can sharpen any angle or change it much more easily and quickly.....

It's worth the learning curve, and you understand knives and steels much better through the process.

 

[JR88FAN]

The reality is, if you look at the tasks we do with a knife as an EDC, there really is no "wrong" steel....

There may be some requirements that will make one better then another, but for the most part, your ability to sharpen a knife, repair an edge, and maintain a high level of sharpness will make the steel less important.

 

[hatchettjack]

Id recommend benchmade n690 steel! It is tough , high corrosion resistance, easy to sharpen! I have it on my bm 915 triage and love it