Which steels can offer the best edge ret and be still sharpenable, in this situation?

[JR88FAN]

I made the mistake of letting my Gayle Bradley (CPM-M4) get too dull. It was a bear to get back to a "razor" edge or whatever, but with stropping and touching up on ultrafine sharpmaker stones, it has been fine. Its all a learning process. To me, you can't just start with a "super" steel. You need to learn to work with and maintain a medium grade steel, like 154cm or D2.

Currently, now that I have some decent sharpening skill, I find S35VN and CTS-XHP my favorites.

In both my opinion and experience, it is better to start with a lower tier steel and learn to care for it than to jump in to the high end steel market right away. With softer, less wear resistant steels, it no only is easier to sharpen them but it is easier to correct a mistake. If you find you have a natural talent with sharpening, working with super steels will be easier.

For the first time ever, I have to gracefully disagree with you, K.O.D....I hope you don't hate me!!

A steel that is "softer" doesn't make sense to me?!
Do you mean like, has a higher Carbon content and less Chromium and Vanadium?

I don't think the steel matters all that much when it comes to ease of sharpening....once you know what you're doing, it's just a matter of doing it.
I find no difference in sharpening D2 vs 154 vs M390....re profiling, that's where it gets a little more tricky....

I think it's obvious what happens when you run a steel too soft (if that's what you mean) for the sake of saying "it will be easier to sharpen" there is a maker/company we all know that runs this theory, and the edge retention on their knives is well below that steels capability.

So what happens? You need to sharpen more....

The OP want's to sharpen less, and that is why I recommended the steels I did.

I went almost 2 months with CPM20CV (lots of hard use, and miles of cardboard) and stropped it two times. It's ability to hold it's fine edge was so good that I sold the knife because I like to sharpen.....

If I compare that to CPM-154/M4/3V/S30V (which I have used a TON) .... Example, not scientific ....

Take 10 large double ply cardboard boxes and cut 5 up into small pieces with 154/M4/3V/S30V and 5 with 20CV (or the family)

The 154/M4/3V/S30V will be at a solid working edge somewhere before you're done.

20CV (and family) will retain the fine edge you started with.

 

[TexasWade]

Reading through the original post I really just see one item that doesn't fit with the rest and that is the razor/laser sharp edge. And it's unfortunate that you list that as number 1 priority because the uses you describe for the knife indicate coarse edge with a wide angle. As you steepen the angle, to say 22 degrees per side, you end up taking less metal off the blade to sharpen and at the same time the edge gets more durable. Use a coarser stone than you think you need, strop it until there is no wire edge and you should have a slightly toothy edge that will cut well and last well. Any decent stainless should be fine and I'd hate to see a fine and expensive knife like you describe being used in the dirt and left uncleaned. I won't judge your actions since it will be you knife to do with as you please but for myself I would consider that abuse. Do yourself a favor and get a cheapo knife, sharpen as I described and I think you'll be happy with the results.

 

[calc]

A few quick notes:

If you're looking for ease of sharpening, toughness, and "razor" edge retention, go with M4.

If you're looking for corrosion resistance and "working" edge retention, go with M390.

But more than anything, go with the model that's right for you. Steel is only one part of the equation, and as long as you get it in the ballpark, you can adjust your sharpening process accordingly.

If I were you, I'd go with a ZDP Stretch and just not let it get too dull in between sharpenings. Nice thin blade, good edge retention and toughness, etc. I think it's a nice, affordable way to try something a little different than your typical S30V, which you seem eager to do.

 

[Sunyata]

For the first time ever, I have to gracefully disagree with you, K.O.D....I hope you don't hate me!!

A steel that is "softer" doesn't make sense to me?!
Do you mean like, has a higher Carbon content and less Chromium and Vanadium?

I don't think the steel matters all that much when it comes to ease of sharpening....once you know what you're doing, it's just a matter of doing it.
I find no difference in sharpening D2 vs 154 vs M390....re profiling, that's where it gets a little more tricky....

I think it's obvious what happens when you run a steel too soft (if that's what you mean) for the sake of saying "it will be easier to sharpen" there is a maker/company we all know that runs this theory, and the edge retention on their knives is well below that steels capability.

So what happens? You need to sharpen more....

The OP want's to sharpen less, and that is why I recommended the steels I did.

I went almost 2 months with CPM20CV (lots of hard use, and miles of cardboard) and stropped it two times. It's ability to hold it's fine edge was so good that I sold the knife because I like to sharpen.....

If I compare that to CPM-154/M4/3V/S30V (which I have used a TON) .... Example, not scientific ....

Take 10 large double ply cardboard boxes and cut 5 up into small pieces with 154/M4/3V/S30V and 5 with 20CV (or the family)

The 154/M4/3V/S30V will be at a solid working edge somewhere before you're done.

20CV (and family) will retain the fine edge you started with.

I agree with you except for M4. I use two M4 knives to slice up boxes from all of our Amazon shipments.

One day I got bored and used my 562CF

I cut stuff until the blade got warm to the touch then went back to the Gayle Bradley

Both still have razor sharp edges and the Gayle Bradley has been at it for a while and was reprofiled by me down to 15DPS

 

[Sir Joe]

Wow, what happened here?
Thanks!
I would like to answer to each of you but such a multiquote would be deadly for both of us.
Let me just resume the most important things:
- I am not stuck with BM, I just like what I saw of them and they are the only ones which I had found by searching for steel.
I may find other things maybe if I search for name of knife. So, thanks for the suggestions
- I would not feel excited with a S30V. I have read that it keeps long time a utility edge but not the razor edge.
I want the razor edge to last as long as possible. I want that feeling that I have something sturdy which will not lose the razor edge easily.
- Does anybody here have enough direct experience with M4 and 10V, to tell me if in my conditions (folder left with some humidity and dirt) they would just develop that dark patina on the blade like Opinel do, or if they would make real red rust with damage on edge and pivot?
- @Ankerson: I have found it! It costs even less than the Nakamura M390. 170 vs 230 Euro. Personally I like more the look of the Nakamura, which would also be 100% legal here if I demount the thumbstuds. But the Manix is very nice too.
So, generally speaking, in what would the S110V be superior or inferior to M390?
Could you or anybody else also guess in what would the Manix be superior or inferior to the Nakamura, given steel, hrc (in Spyderco no idea but in BM is 60-62) and geometry?
- @Mastiff, no Native S110V here apparently. Only S35V...
- Ok, no perfect knife, understood. I agree. I know also that I will probably buy other knives in the future
- I agree with learning to sharpen with a medium steel. If my cheap knives will not be enough I may buy another medium cheap, 154cm. But, as said, this knife must rock.
- @JR88FAN, would you include S110V in the "family"?
- @TexasWade, I did not understand. Are you suggesting me wide or thin angle? "Steepen" sounds like going thin, to me. On the other hand 22 each side (which I can't do, as I am not so precise at all) is not so thin for what I understand. SPyderco consider 40 (20 each side) like a safe edge, vs 30 as a thinner but more dangerous edge.
Can you elaborate?
For coarse edge vs fine edge, I think there is a misunderstanding: when I say razor edge I do not necessarily refer to "not teethed". I refer to razor vs working edge.
Or am I missing something? Are you telling me that razor edge = fine and working edge = coarse?
Can anybody explain for which uses is to be preferred a fine edge or a coarse edge?

Cheers!

Ah, and, edit: I do not plan to abuse of the knife. I am not going to cut mountains with it. And I am not saying I will leave it forgotten wet and dirt, systematically.
I just meant that it may happen that I forget it, from time to time, wet and dirty.
Otherwise I will keep it dry and clean and oiled.
maybe not every day, but, regularly.

 

[TexasWade]

- @TexasWade, I did not understand. Are you suggesting me wide or thin angle? "Steepen" sounds like going thin, to me. On the other hand 22 each side (which I can't do, as I am not so precise at all) is not so thin for what I understand. SPyderco consider 40 (20 each side) like a safe edge, vs 30 as a thinner but more dangerous edge.
Can you elaborate?
For coarse edge vs fine edge, I think there is a misunderstanding: when I say razor edge I do not necessarily refer to "not teethed". I refer to razor vs working edge.
Or am I missing something? Are you telling me that razor edge = fine and working edge = coarse?
Can anybody explain for which uses is to be preferred a fine edge or a coarse edge?

Drew a picture to help visualize the width of the edge, even dimensioned in millimeters since you mentioned price in euros... You can see that the steeper edge on the right is only about 2/3rds the width of the other. Translates directly to how much metal you have to move with the stone and therefore how much work you have to do to sharpen the blade.

As for the edge quality, what I'm saying is the coarser stone will leave more tooth on the edge. In my experience, whenever I put on the gleaming polished edge it is great for a short time but when it loses that last half a percent of sharpness it doesn't want to bite. The toothier edge can lose a much greater percentage of sharpness yet still be useful for most all purposes. It may not be that hair popping edge you want, but it'll be much more tolerant to mild abuse and will take care of your daily tasks for a long long time.

I apologize if I had the wrong impression from your original post, I thought it sounded like the knife would be in for a lot of hard use in a very dirty environment. Cutting bags of cement, working in soil etc... Sounds like a standard issue Buck 110 would be right at home and the modern close-tolerance folding knife will probably have a hard time dealing with that environment. I'm not trying to discourage you from getting an exciting knife, I'd just like to see you have something appropriate for what you're doing instead of an expensive disappointment. Maybe consider two knives? One sort of cheap and ragged for the hard work and another for light duty tasks and general fondling

 

[Sulaco]

Are you actually planning to use this knife to open cement bags? I'd never use anything I paid for than a few dollars for to do that. It will be ruined in no time.

 

[Sir Joe]

Hmm, it's not really cement. When we use cement we open it in a quicker way.
It's a very fine stone flour used to fertilise.
No need to apologise!
Now that I re read my post I see what was your worry.
Well, it is a definitely dirty environment, but not hard use.
May I ask why should a 420 hc better than a m390 or s110v for that kind of situation?
I thought that such a hard and good and stainless steel would have no problem with anything

Yes, anyway I'm thinking about another cheaper knife. Maybe leatherman c33, or e33...
But please explain why should such good steels be in danger.

Cheers!

 

[Sir Joe]

Ah, also, it's not that I'm taking a 200 euro knife just to open sacks.
It's that starting from the immediate dullness problems which i had with a cheap knife i had the idea of getting something better, and at first i thought 420hc or 154 cm, then i thought "hmm, i really want a good knife, i want to have that feeling".
So it became cpm154 and now m390 or s110v or similar.
That.

 

[TexasWade]

I'm not suggesting that the 420hc steel is better, just that the overall knife seems more appropriate for the use you describe.

 

[Sir Joe]

I'm not suggesting that the 420hc steel is better, just that the overall knife seems more appropriate for the use you describe.

Of course, this was clear. I meant, why you consider the 420HC "better in this situation".
Is it just a matter of "take a cheaper steel which is still decent, at least you'll not feel bad when it gets damaged", or do you mean that for some reason (which I'd like to know, so I can learn) the 420hc would resist better than a supersteel to what I need it for?
Is it a matter of the acids in the mud? Of the minerals in the soil, cement etc?

Btw, thanks for the images of the bevel, now I understand what you mean. Yes, I remember having heard the man of Spyderco in the Sharpener viideos saying that Spyderco gives their knives a 30° bevel so that later people can sharpen them with a 40° angle, which they suggest in order to have a more resistant edge.
It makes sense now, of course, the more vertical the edge, the more amount steel to work out.
I will have to figure it out when I get the knife, if I prefer to sharpen a bit more but have a thin penetrating edge (in which case I really need a steel able to support such thin edge without chipping) or if I prefer the other way.

 

[TexasWade]

Had another thought about this since you mentioned the Leatherman. That might be a great choice and for the amount you're willing to spend I think you might be able to get a custom maker to make a blade from your super steel of choice and install it into your multitool.

 

[TexasWade]

Of course, this was clear. I meant, why you consider the 420HC "better in this situation".
It is just a matter of "take a cheaper steel which is still decent", or is the 420HC particularly appropriate in your opinion?

Didn't mean to be misleading, the steel had nothing to do with my suggestion. Those things aren't super knives by today's standards but they seem to survive well under some pretty tough conditions.

 

[Duane Sanders]

Of course, this was clear. I meant, why you consider the 420HC "better in this situation".
It is just a matter of "take a cheaper steel which is still decent", or is the 420HC particularly appropriate in your opinion? It is not clear to me, for example, if you are saying that for some reason the 420HC would stand better than those supersteels against the use I will do, or if you just mean that also the 420HC would be damaged but I would not care because it is cheaper.
I am always a eager learner when I am into something new. And although all these threads about supersteels evoked in me the already mentioned feeling of "damn, I want one of these knives!", I am willing to step back from my plan to use that knife for those jobs, if you can explain why should those supersteels survive to the real abuse of other people, but not to mine
Is it a matter of the acids in the mud? Of the minerals in the soil, cement etc?

Btw, thanks for the images of the bevel, now I understand what you mean. Yes, I remember having heard the man of Spyderco in the Sharpener viideos saying that Spyderco gives their knives a 30° bevel so that later people can sharpen them with a 40° angle, which they suggest in order to have a more resistant edge.
It makes sense now, of course, the more vertical the edge, the more amount steel to work out.
I will have to figure it out when I get the knife, if I prefer to sharpen a bit more but have a thin penetrating edge (in which case I really need a steel able to support such thin edge without chipping) or if I prefer the other way.

420HC in the form of the USA made Bucks with the Bos heat treat will out perform many grades of steel at much higher price points. I use a buck vantage select in 420HC and it keeps its edge so long I don't see a need to jump up to even AUS8. I have plenty of experience with AUS8 and no brand of knife in that steel will hold up as good as bucks 420HC. My most used large blade is a Buck reaper in 420HC and it can hang with any brand in any steel of the same length. I have other brands in 420HC and they perform a little less than normal AUS8 does.

You would be plenty satisfied with a Buck Vantage Select in 420HC. It out classes "better" steels and any brands knife in that price range. You could spend $200.00 USD and more and get less time between sharpenings than the Vantage select will give you.

For the price you may as well try one. I really don't see a need for anything else because it is so tough and the edge lasts a very long time. Only thing is that it does take a little bit longer to sharpen than other brands in 420HC but it holds its edge much longer and is still super easy to sharpen razor sharp quickly.

 

[Bob6794]

Blade geometry is what cuts, the steal/heat treat helps determine how long it cuts depending on the task. That is knife performance in the most basic nature I can describe.

Having a knife made in a steel that require very little sharpening is nice but if it doesn't have as good of a blade geometry as a "inferior" steel than it won't cut as good. Take what I have which are 2 polar opposites, I have my Spyderco Mule Team 18 in S110V a very wear resistant knife and it will hold a edge for what feels like an eternity. On the other hand I have my $3 Victorinox paring knife I regrinded to be thinner. Guess which ones sits in the closest, the Mule Team 18, the primary duty of the Victorinox is cardboard cutting duty a task which will kill the edge of a knife in no time flat and this knife has probably the lowest edge retention of any knife I own. But it has such good blade geometry that even when it's dull by my standards it's still slicing through cardboard with ease and I can touch it up in a matter of seconds with a few quick strops on some black compound and it's back to being stupidly sharp. The Mule Team while it will hold a edge longer never gets a chance to take over the Victorinox in performance because I don't have enough cardboard to completely dull to that point where it would outperform it even if I were to cut up an entire recycling bin of cardboard to fit in there. Now if I were to stress test these knives in unrealistic conditions by slicing up the cardboard into thin strips instead of what is necessary than the Victorinox would be a real pain to use before I am done with the task and require going back to the stone while the Mule Team would still be chugging along. But in real world use of them the Victorinox is far superior for the task as hand and ease of maintenance after the job is done makes up for the lack of edge retention compared to the Mule Team.

To sum that entire part up, blade geometry > blade steel (assuming both steels will get the job done for the task at hand). So try to pick your blade based on that than decide what steel you need out of your options if what you want is performance. It's a lot easier to cut with a scalpel than an axe after all.

Get better at sharpening if your worried about steels that are "difficult to sharpen". The same principal of sharpening and what your doing isn't really different it just takes longer due to the wear resistant nature and that causes fatique which you may not notice. And that fatique can make it more difficult to sharpen. This is assuming your using the appropriate abbrasive for the steel at hand. I get the impression you haven't really tried to master the art of sharpening you should really try to, there are levels of sharpness you haven't yet obtained than. And doing so will open up a lot of doors to what you now consider usable if you think a wear resistant steel is what you need, not to mention make cutting chores easier. I used to be the same with wanting a more resistant steel but once I learned to sharpened and get good at it I can tell you it doesn't really matter much and simple steels such as 440a in my Rough Riders are actually among my favorite knives as they just love taking a extremely sharp edge for me with very little work and maintaining it takes very little work as well. So for normal EDC use I can maintain a high level of sharpness with very little effort.

So for a knife try to select one with good blade geometry for what you need and than decide on the steel and master how to sharpen so you can get better performance out of it. You said you were looking at Ankersons edge retention page so I am assuming this page http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php/793481-Ranking-of-Steels-in-Categories-based-on-Edge-Retention-cutting-5-8-quot-rope, take a look at the Manix 2 in S110v in before and after the regrind in performance. That's a pretty large jump in just changing the blade geometry in regrinding it. So keep that in mind, blade steel is only one part of the equation for performance.

 

[Bob6794]

420HC in the form of the USA made Bucks with the Bos heat treat will out perform many grades of steel at much higher price points. I use a buck vantage select in 420HC and it keeps its edge so long I don't see a need to jump up to even AUS8. I have plenty of experience with AUS8 and no brand of knife in that steel will hold up as good as bucks 420HC. My most used large blade is a Buck reaper in 420HC and it can hang with any brand in any steel of the same length. I have other brands in 420HC and they perform a little less than normal AUS8 does.

You would be plenty satisfied with a Buck Vantage Select in 420HC. It out classes "better" steels and any brands knife in that price range. You could spend $200.00 USD and more and get less time between sharpenings than the Vantage select will give you.

For the price you may as well try one. I really don't see a need for anything else because it is so tough and the edge lasts a very long time. Only thing is that it does take a little bit longer to sharpen than other brands in 420HC but it holds its edge much longer and is still super easy to sharpen razor sharp quickly.

BOS heat treatment of 420HC is excellent from what I hear and I never heard anyone say differently. But at the end of the day it is still 420HC so there are limits to what it can do. The reason why it outclasses your other knives in Aus 8 is most likely blade geometry and the fact that Buck tries to do a 15 DPS per side when they sharpen if I remember correctly which goes back to geometry. But for arguments sake lets say we have 2 identical blades with the steal being the only difference, you have your BOS heat treated 420HC and an Aus 8 with a good heat treat. The Aus 8 should have better edge retention, if you start searching around the forums and online you can see what people have put both through and see that trend in Aus 8 outperforming 420HC in edge retention.

And Aus 8 isn't a high end steel, there are several steels that far outclass it. And at the $200 price point you mentioned I be disappointed in any knife I get if the steel it has can't far outclass 420HC unless I bought it for decoration.

 

[JR88FAN]

Sir Joe, this is up to you to figure out.

I can't argue with anyone that thinks M4 holds it's fine edge better than 20CV/M390/204P

This has never been the case for ME.....not even close.

I suggest you talk to Jim Ankerson here on this forum, I believe you have seen his testing?

While his testing is not perfect, it focuses primarily on edge retention, and Jim had cut more with a larger variety of steels than anyone on this forum....

Good luck, and please update with what you decided to go with, and how you like it!

 

[Ankerson]

I made the mistake of letting my Gayle Bradley (CPM-M4) get too dull. It was a bear to get back to a "razor" edge or whatever, but with stropping and touching up on ultrafine sharpmaker stones, it has been fine. Its all a learning process. To me, you can't just start with a "super" steel. You need to learn to work with and maintain a medium grade steel, like 154cm or D2.

Currently, now that I have some decent sharpening skill, I find S35VN and CTS-XHP my favorites.

In both my opinion and experience, it is better to start with a lower tier steel and learn to care for it than to jump in to the high end steel market right away. With softer, less wear resistant steels, it no only is easier to sharpen them but it is easier to correct a mistake. If you find you have a natural talent with sharpening, working with super steels will be easier.

I am a big fan of S35VN myself. :thumbup:

 

[Duane Sanders]

BOS heat treatment of 420HC is excellent from what I hear and I never heard anyone say differently. But at the end of the day it is still 420HC so there are limits to what it can do. The reason why it outclasses your other knives in Aus 8 is most likely blade geometry and the fact that Buck tries to do a 15 DPS per side when they sharpen if I remember correctly which goes back to geometry. But for arguments sake lets say we have 2 identical blades with the steal being the only difference, you have your BOS heat treated 420HC and an Aus 8 with a good heat treat. The Aus 8 should have better edge retention, if you start searching around the forums and online you can see what people have put both through and see that trend in Aus 8 outperforming 420HC in edge retention.

And Aus 8 isn't a high end steel, there are several steels that far outclass it. And at the $200 price point you mentioned I be disappointed in any knife I get if the steel it has can't far outclass 420HC unless I bought it for decoration.

At the end of the day it is 420HC but it is not their imported 420HC which is nowhere near as good and it's not another brands 420HC. What they do with that steel is put it in a class of its own with the Bos heat treat. It is just plain old 420HC when you settle down for the day but you can rest easy knowing a days work will not make it dull enough to require maintenance.

The reaper I have is thin and light. I spent all day Sunday and Monday clearing brush with it and it was slightly dull and had one dent in the edge from hitting a screw that was in a branch in the brush for some reason. If it weren't for the small dent I would have left the blade alone after several hours of work both days. I have other 420HC blades that will be more dull in 30-45 minutes of work.

People will look down on it for what the steel is but to ignore its performance is counter productive if the blade will be used for work. They make them tough with great edge retention. They still sharpen easily too. What's not to like?

I know people use the geometry excuse when better steels perform lesser than the buck 420HC. so then what's the point of buying a fancy steel if it don't do as good? You answered that one already. It's for decoration. No one is going to chat up another knife owner about his 420HC knife. They are just going to carry it and use it when it needs to be used and know they are getting one over on the expensive blades.

Buck puts an actual great heat treat on a steel with geometry to get the most from that steel. They design an actual knife. You can not beat that!

The reaper is my brush clearing, hunting, "bushcraft" do everything fixed blade. It will work all day and still be useable for a long period playing around with it and do it all over again the next day and a minute on a strop makes it like it was three days ago. I have yet to meet a steel that can go that long and not need maintenance. It's 420HC but it's Bucks 420HC with Bos heat treat. That's what makes it so good, along with its geometry.

The vantage select is in the same class. Works longer than most blades with much less time maintaining and sharpening. Perfect balance for a working knife, like the OP asked for.

Just my input. You don't need a super steel to get super performance. Just a great geometry blade with a steel that has a heat treat to get the most from that blade.

 

[Ankerson]

Sir Joe, this is up to you to figure out.

I can't argue with anyone that thinks M4 holds it's fine edge better than 20CV/M390/204P

This has never been the case for ME.....not even close.

I suggest you talk to Jim Ankerson here on this forum, I believe you have seen his testing?

While his testing is not perfect, it focuses primarily on edge retention, and Jim had cut more with a larger variety of steels than anyone on this forum....

Good luck, and please update with what you decided to go with, and how you like it!

It will depend a lot of the actual knives really, in Customs with a good HT M4 is very nice indeed and does hold an edge for a very long time.