Which steels can offer the best edge ret and be still sharpenable, in this situation?

[JR88FAN]

^^^ you can cut "brush" for years with steel and not much should happen....
Just get a junk pair of pruners with "mystery" steel. They will cut for a very long time without issue.

Cardboard is a much better test if you want to get into edge retention.

Anyway, this thread is going sideways.....
I will let you guys fight out the merits of 420HC vs whatever.

 

[Duane Sanders]

^^^ you can cut "brush" for years with steel and not much should happen....
Just get a junk pair of pruners with "mystery" steel. They will cut for a very long time without issue.

Cardboard is a much better test if you want to get into edge retention.

Anyway, this thread is going sideways.....
I will let you guys fight out the merits of 420HC vs whatever.

Pruners are slooooooow. It's the difference of working sunrise to sunset to get as much done with a knife that excels at brush clearing in a few hours. That blade slices right through some pretty thick stuff and will do it so much faster than pruners. The size swings in tight spots real easy too. Doing a couple rose bushes out front, yes the pruners are used. If there is high volumes that I need to do, the reaper gets it done quick. No one is fighting. Just saying Bucks Bos heat treat with 420HC is more than what "better" steels can offer.

Cutting cardboard. The vantage does equally well against "better" steels there too. It easily outlasts the "better" AUS8 and acts like steel much more expensive and exotic than its plain name suggests.

There is no denying bucks 420HC Bos heat treated steel is a flat out performer. Cardboard is not a real test anyway in my opinion. Even a butter knife will cut it. Yes it will be harder to do but it will cut it. That butter knife won't cut rope though and that stuff is much harder on an edge. I know because I cut lots of rope. The video I posted in my first reply demonstrates this characteristic of Bucks 420HC.

 

[Ankerson]

Anyway, this thread is going sideways.....
I will let you guys fight out the merits of 420HC vs whatever.

All I am going to say is that's it's very amusing. ROFL

It really is....

Other than that I am not going to bother, not worth the effort nor the aggravation.

 

[Bob6794]

Buck puts an actual great heat treat on a steel with geometry to get the most from that steel. They design an actual knife. You can not beat that!

I think this sums up Buck 420HC nicely which is why it hits above it weight class sometimes when compared to some of the competition, especially the overbuilt folders built for abuse more than cutting duties.

 

[Sir Joe]

Things I have learned from this thread:
1) as long as the geometry is good, you can make a knife out of a Coke's Can and it will cut as well as any other Supersteel. It will eventually hold its edge a little less long, but it will be easy to touch up. Just a couple or three strops between each cut.
2) it is incredible the amount of Choco Pudding which I can eat while choosing knives. I will probably end up posting a sidekick thread of Ankerson's Edge Retention, with the number of spoons of Choco Pudding which I can eat while reading about each of those steels. For fairness of comparison I will consider the hardness of each pudding.
3) heat treatments can make even the air of a thread hot, specially if it's BOS' one.
4) chances are good that no matter which Steel I will choose I will be satisfied. Or unsatisfied.
In any case I will spend the rest of my days sharpening.
5) I will sleep more than 4 hours a night only when I will get my damn knife.

So, I was thinking that I was ready to chose a knife, or at least to propose you for examination and suggestions a list of possibilities, when I have re-read some comments and decided that I still needed to investigate on a few subjects.
Please be so kind to give me assistance a bit more

But since you mentioned keeping a fine edge versus a coarser edge then I'd probably look for cruwear from spyderco considering the totality of the circumstances: availability/relative ease of sharpening/toughness/fine edge retention/hard carbide content.

Could you (or anybody else) explain more this of coarse/fine?
Does "coarse" mean teethed, and fine = polished?
Is that strictly related to the sharpening, with coarse being caused by a lower grit and fine by a higher grit?
What is the relation between the coarse/fine thing, and the "holds the razor edge longer" vs "holds the working edge longer"?
Do all steels mentioned in this thread support well both fine and coarse edges?
I read that teethed edges seem sharper but then the teeth tend to break, and that's why a fine edge should be better. So, when should one prefer coarse or fine?

We talk about other things like "edge stability"

Which of the steels mentioned in this thread offer better edge stability?

I do work very similar to yours. Because corrosion resistance is so important, I limit my bladesto stainless steels. For one of my current work knIves, I m using the griptilian in m390 steel. Exclusive from one of our dealers, and a very tough work knife. In your price range.
Also agree with surfing gringo, except I would consider s35v for better toughness than s30v.

How would you compare, given our job, the M390 and the S35VN?
And, did you try a M4 or 10V and could notice any rust problem?
Did you ever have problems of locking mechanism not locking, due to dirt or even rust (caused by old wet dirt not properly/timely cleaned)?

All steels are easy to sharpen when you use diamonds! I'm serious.

Diamonds are forever.
(just wanted to say that)

I agree with you except for M4. I use two M4 knives to slice up boxes from all of our Amazon shipments.
One day I got bored and used my 562CF

These are 2 of the knives I am considering, Benchmade Contego, and ZT 0562CF. Could you compare them?

To sum that entire part up, blade geometry > blade steel (assuming both steels will get the job done for the task at hand). So try to pick your blade based on that than decide what steel you need out of your options if what you want is performance. It's a lot easier to cut with a scalpel than an axe after all.
...take a look at the Manix 2 in S110v in before and after the regrind in performance. That's a pretty large jump in just changing the blade geometry in regrinding it. So keep that in mind, blade steel is only one part of the equation for performance.

To you and to everybody else: considering only the Geometry, in which order of preference would these 4 knives be placed, for what I am looking for?
Benchmade Nakamura
Benchmade Contego (so, how much in danger of rust would the M4 be?)
Spyderco Para 2
Spyderco Manix 2
ZT 0620CF
ZT 0562CF

And, how to I reprofile / regrind a knife? Would a Sharpmaker with Diamond Rods be ok?
And which of the steels mentioned in this thread allow a thinner edge? (thinner, not fine)?

It will depend a lot of the actual knives really, in Customs with a good HT M4 is very nice indeed and does hold an edge for a very long time.

Calc wrote that M4 holds a razor edge longer, while M390 holds the working edge longer (which remembers me of the 154cm vs s30v debate).
Did you also notice that, and if yes could you say why?
I look for the steels which hold the razor edge (much) longer. The utility edge is not of my interest. I will keep my knife at Razor Edge level.
I have also noticed that in your Review of Edge Retention you did not put the S110V in the first list. Where would you place it, in which category?


And one last question for everybody: which locking mechanism should I prefer given my situation?
I have been looking at videos.
The Manix does not seem very strong. A guy was able to unlock it by beating the ground with the back of the spine. Besides, I wonder if the dirt (soil/mud) would not block the spring..., and eventually rust it.
Same story with the Axis...
The frame lock of the ZT should be fine, and the Compression of the Para 2 even better.
Thoughts?


Thanks!

 

[bodog]

Could you (or anybody else) explain more this of coarse/fine?
Does "coarse" mean teethed, and fine = polished?
Is that strictly related to the sharpening, with coarse being caused by a lower grit and fine by a higher grit? Basically. But you can over polish an edge which us basically just rounding the apex over. Think coarse equals mini saw and fine being like a razor blade. The apex can be flat or rough on a microscopic level. Some steels do great one way, some do great another.


What is the relation between the coarse/fine thing, and the "holds the razor edge longer" vs "holds the working edge longer"? Some steels do it one way, some do it another. Depends on what you want. A really fine edge may slip on rubber if you try to saw on it but it'll push cut through it easily.

Do all steels mentioned in this thread support well both fine and coarse edges? Yes. Some do better one way but they can all be left coarse or taken fine. Depends on what you want and then picking the steel that does it.

I read that teethed edges seem sharper but then the teeth tend to break, and that's why a fine edge should be better. So, when should one prefer coarse or fine?

Depends on the size of the microscopic teeth and what you wanna do and how you personally cut things. I personally push cut more. Some people draw cut more.


Which of the steels mentioned in this thread offer better edge stability? That's a huge debate. It basically means an edge that deform the least, breaks the least, and wears the least. So you need a high toughness, high hardness, highly wear resistant steel ideally. Your preferences will dictate which features are more important for your uses.


How would you compare, given our job, the M390 and the S35VN? In real life you won't see much difference unless you start changing hardness quite a bit. Most people would generally acknowledge that M390 is better, but that's a subjective term, so YMMV.


Did you ever have problems of locking mechanism not locking, due to dirt or even rust (caused by old wet dirt not properly/timely cleaned)? I haven't. Even the cheapest pieces of junk I've used had locks that kept the blade open while I worked.


To you and to everybody else: considering only the Geometry, in which order of preference would these 4 knives be placed, for what I am looking for? That's a debate. What one person prefers has nothing to do with what another person prefers. It's like asking someone to tell you if you'd like cheeseburgers or pizza better.
Benchmade Nakamura
Benchmade Contego (so, how much in danger of rust would the M4 be?)
Spyderco Para 2
Spyderco Manix 2
ZT 0620CF
ZT 0562CF

And, how to I reprofile / regrind a knife? Would a Sharpmaker with Diamond Rods be ok? It would take awhile to reprofile a thick knife even with diamond stones on the sharpmaker.

And which of the steels mentioned in this thread allow a thinner edge? (thinner, not fine)? That's debatable. Depends on how the steel is hardened. Generally production companies leave blades really thick. Spyderco leaves them thinner unless you start looking at traditional knives like slip joints.


Calc wrote that M4 holds a razor edge longer, while M390 holds the working edge longer (which remembers me of the 154cm vs s30v debate). That's debatable. Some things you just have to figure out on your own. There are opinions that range all over the map.


And one last question for everybody: which locking mechanism should I prefer given my situation?
Don't worry about the lock unless you get the knife in hand and clearly see it'll fail. Most of the time locks are overrated. Buy a knife from a good company and use it. If you see it failing, contact the company. If you want consistency each and every time you're going to pay for it.


The Manix does not seem very strong. A guy was able to unlock it by beating the ground with the back of the spine. Besides, I wonder if the dirt (soil/mud) would not block the spring..., and eventually rust it.
Same story with the Axis...
Don't know what to say, sometimes people get a bunk product. Again, locks are mostly overrated. Worry about the company's overall reputation more than the lock alone.

The frame lock of the ZT should be fine, and the Compression of the Para 2 even better.
Thoughts?
Those locks fail too.

 

[Carnage1]

Just pick a knife!! If this is your first knife (like u said in opening post I believe) your not going to know the difference between steels anyway. You won't have anything to compare it too!
And as much typing and thought u have put into this decision. I highly doubt you will forget it in your pants or not clean it once you do get it. If knives were really this temperamental know one would buy them.
Your treating this like your buying a house.
And it should be obvious get the ZT 562 in either Elma's or cts. Duh

 

[Ankerson]

Calc wrote that M4 holds a razor edge longer, while M390 holds the working edge longer (which remembers me of the 154cm vs s30v debate).
Did you also notice that, and if yes could you say why?
I look for the steels which hold the razor edge (much) longer. The utility edge is not of my interest. I will keep my knife at Razor Edge level.
I have also noticed that in your Review of Edge Retention you did not put the S110V in the first list. Where would you place it, in which category?




Thanks!

That would depend on what you think sharp is.

 

[Sir Joe]

That would depend on what you think sharp is.

More or less what I see in your videos, like that where you slice a tomato horizontally.
A very thin edge which slices like laser in the use I'll do. I myself have this fantasy of a push cut where with almost no pressure you go through. But, even if that's just fantasy, I tell you to give you an idea of the aim.
Man must have dreams!

 

[bodog]

More or less what I see in your videos, like that where you slice a tomato horizontally.
A very thin edge which slices like laser in the use I'll do. I myself have this fantasy of a push cut where with almost no pressure you go through. But, even if that's just fantasy, I tell you to give you an idea of the aim.
Man must have dreams!

Then you need a thin knife to do that kind of stuff. A ZT and a benchmade probably won't do what you want. Try a spyderco nilakka. They're pretty thin.

 

[Sir Joe]

OK, thanks.
I'll start with that
Would the Para2 be still OK? I see that it is thicker than the Manix.
Actually, the Benchmade Nakamura is even thinner than the Manix. Would that be better? Or is it the geometry/proportions which are not optimal?

 

[bodog]

Everything is a compromise. A thin knife cannot be abused like a thicker knife but a thick knife won't cut like a thin one. Out of the ones you listed I'm sure you'd probably be happy with any of em, honestly. You'd probably also find faults with each of em. That's why people find something, work with it for awhile, try something else that's a little different that they're interested in and repeat the cycle. You'll probably go through at least several knives before you find one that does everything you want and you'll have a small collection that sits there collecting dust. You may find that you want to carry two knives, one for harder tasks and one for cleaner, finer tasks. That's your journey to travel. Any of the ones you listed are a good first step, though. Choose the one you like the best and use it. Keep an open mind to the things you like and don't like about it. Buy two or three, handle em, and sell off the ones you know aren't comfortable and put the others to use.

 

[The Mastiff]

We talk about other things like "edge stability"
Which of the steels mentioned in this thread offer better edge stability?

Ser Joe, the higher edge stability steels are generally going to be steels 1) with not too high a carbide fraction, and 2) powder steel process or another way of keeping the grain structure under control. Most of the steels you are considering are pretty good. If it wasn't for the powder steel process I'd be recommending steels like W2, O-1, 52100,1070/1080/84/85, for stainless 13C26/AEBL/12C29 and a bunch more. If you want the hard carbides for extra wear resistance steels like CPM Cruwear, 3V, 4V/Vandis 4E and several others fit the bill very well as great compromises between the low carbide, high stability steels and the high carbide tool ( 10V ), high wear and stainless steels S30V on up through M390 and S110V fit here as well.

They are all pretty good though. Everything you are looking at. I will say though that thickness and geometry have a great deal of influence on the performance. The Contego, though a big tough folder in M4 is a great knife it won't slice with a thinner design made thinner for better slicing like the Spyderco Gayle Bradley also in CPM M4. I have both and like both but they are designed to different standards IMO for different purposes. Different doesn't mean better, it just means you get to chose which one best accommodates your expected uses. Expect long life and excellent service from both.

Also IMO, some place way too much emphasis on corrosion resistance. Non stainless does not mean shorter life time except in situations like the pilot in WW2 that spent 40 days on a raft. It was severe enough to where his M1911 .45 acp no longer functioned from corrosion when he was finally picked up. That was unique. Lots of us around here have non stainless knives over a hundred years old that still perform excellently. I have several. It does take some work to keep them clean but not as much as a lot of the younger guys around here seem to think. I don't patina my knives. I prefer them to look the same as my stainless knives. The one thing I keep to is if the blade or knife has anything corrosive on it I wash it off before putting it away. If it will be stored I take 3 -4 minutes and put some paste wax on it before storing it. That's really about it. Stainless needs essentially the same care. If some rust pops up from a long day of sweating at work just wash the salt off and reapply oil ( or not) and that's it. I have swam in pools, lakes and the ocean with my knives and treat all the same when I get out, stainless or non stainless. It's easy and quick. I have a silicone treated gun cleaning cloth I use after washing off whatever junk I get on it.

Of course the stainless steels you are considering are excellent as well. Essentially just get whichever knife you like at this point as they are all good as far as I see from reading this thread.

Joe

 

[Sunyata]

Diamonds are forever.
(just wanted to say that)


These are 2 of the knives I am considering, Benchmade Contego, and ZT 0562CF. Could you compare them?

Sure. I can post pictures later to help but..


They are two different knives. The contego is built to be used to mess things up. It's got very aggressive scales and jimping all over for grip with or without gloves. Its got a thicker grind on the blade so it isn't a great of a slicer but very durable.

The 0562 is designed to be more of an EDC knive. It's smaller, sleaker and less aggressive ( especially with the CF scale). It does have the high slicer grind and two good steels and breezes through things.

 

[Sunyata]

I'm getting a weird errors when I try to edit my previous post

 

[Sir Joe]

Spyderco has the Manix 2 LW in S110V available as a regular production knife.

Could you please explain how you regrinded the Manix 2 to increase so dramatically the performances as to be seen on your thread?

I'm getting a weird errors when I try to edit my previous post

It seems all ok to me
Anyway I have finally decided not to buy M4 for the risk of rust in my environment, and the ZT because illegal in Germany.
It is true that the manix 2 is also illegal (all what can be opened one handed, and can be locked, is illegal. Only one of the two things is not illegal).
But if I go illegal I prefer doing it with a Spyderco

A friend can get me discount on knives here so I am thinking about buying 2 or three, in different steels.
The Manix S110V is sure.
For M390 I have to decide between Benchmade Nakamura and Lionsteel TRE. The Benchmade is 60-62, the TRE is 60-61, not much difference. What I cannot quantify is which one would be a better slicer: benchmade is 2.9mm thick, but the grind starts at 1/3 of the blade, so that the angle is wider. Lionsteel is 3.5 but there is no grind, I mean, it is like the Manix, a single line from spine to edge. The angle is narrower than on the nakamura. Do you guys think there would be a difference?
Than I would like to try CPM154 or 154CM, not yet sure. CPM 154 would be Boker Jim Burke Thorn.
I would like to buy more knives in the future and try different steels. Maybe a Dragonfly or a Delica, in VG10.

Ordered the Sharpmaker today

 

[Jens Schuetz]

Only carrying certain knives in public is illegal. You can still possess most of them and if you need them for your job you can even have the "illegal to carry" knives with you on the way to work and back home.
If you need to know the details of German knife law I could help you a bit with that.

 

[M1GarandGuy]

There are a few that meet your criteria. The best IMHO is any sort of San Mai Steel. cts-xhp is another one that comes to mind. Last is N690co.

 

[tim37a]

Maybe this has already been mentioned - I got tired of reading so I skipped a few comments. Beta titanium is extremely abrasion resistant - that's why Seals use it to probe for mines. So, buy a titanium knife from Mission Knives for gardening. M390 meets all your other req'mts so get another knife for non-gardening chores. Knives are almost always a compromise so rather than use a particular knife for a chore it isn't suited for, get the right knife for the right job.

Tim

 

[Jens Schuetz]

Maybe this has already been mentioned - I got tired of reading so I skipped a few comments. Beta titanium is extremely abrasion resistant - that's why Seals use it to probe for mines. So, buy a titanium knife from Mission Knives for gardening. M390 meets all your other req'mts so get another knife for non-gardening chores. Knives are almost always a compromise so rather than use a particular knife for a chore it isn't suited for, get the right knife for the right job.

Tim

Before the Internet and Blade Forums
I also thought titanium is the coolest. :-D
For some things it actually is. It doesn't rust and it's nonmagnetic. No rust is good in seawater and nonmagnetic doesn't trigger certain types of mines. That's why Seals might like titanium. Another possible reason could be that titanium doesn't mess with your compass.

For rust resistance there are new steels which don't even rust in sea water! H1 from Spyderco for example.

Abresion resistance as far as I know isn't very good for titanium. Beta titanium might be the most abrasion resistant titanium but is still not as good as most knife steels.
Might be wrong though since I'm just repeating what I read and have no personal experience with the beta kind.

Best steel for probing soils. Mmmh
I took roughly 100 soil samples a day and each required 10 times poking into the ground with an oversized apple corer looking thing which was made out of simple V2A steel. I did that for years full time between army and college, during college holidays and most weekends and the probe was still doing well after at least half a million pokes.